An omniscient omnipotent patriarchal entity that created the Universe and all of the variety of life contained within.
I think this is a good point to ask ourseves WWFS or What Would Feynman Say.
"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."
[i]The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn't subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?[/i]
See, if you don't believe in it, it has very little power to offend in my opinion. It's excellent ammunition for those who don't believe tho, I'll give you that.
I thought that might set the pulses racing. It's also not about offending or not offending anyone, I'm simply sharing a world view that's been shared for centuries.
I'm really interested to know what it is that 'put's people off' so much? Is it the notion of a devil? Hands up how many of you celebrated halloween?
I would have thought that seeing people healed and lives transformed would be a positive thing? Isn't this the gist of what others are suggesting but via the MTFU process.
I still marvel at the sheer improbibility of our exisitence, the real story - the one backed by evidence - of our origin is just so much more miraculous.
This. And that we are learning more as time goes on. An exciting time to be alive!
Hmmm, it's not. The symbol is that of Gods/Jesus'* love for us**. Do paraphrase "he loved us so much he sent his only son to die for us on the cross".
*and I assume the holy spirit?
**them? Although if he did exist I suppose the rest would be included, who knows, depends which flavour of Christianity you prefer.
I would have thought that seeing people healed and lives transformed would be a positive thing? Isn't this the gist of what others are suggesting but via the MTFU process
Sorry I don't believe you on this. Double blind trials have been done on prayer and it was shown to be ineffective. Like homeopathy and all that stuff.
Religion doesn't put me off so much a I would feel a right numpty having to hold things as true when I see no evidence for them. Organised religion of any type is a control system with heirarchies of priests etc. So that is right out for a start.
But I am a true skeptic. Show me evidence and I will change my mind.
Christopher Hitchens is dying but his magnificent Rolls Royce of a mind purrs on. This is the Greatest Living Englishman at his defiant best.
The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn't subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?
That's not at all what I'm saying! You have twisted/misinterpreted me. Apologies if it wasn't clear or has caused offence.
We are God's creation and loved and valued by him. That is why he sent his Son Jesus to die. My point was that there is more going on as regards spiritual realms than in my opinion we realise or recognise. This is not about judging people, clasifying them as evil and so please don't mis-represent me on that point.
So a relatively very small number of people then, rather than 'believers' in general?
Yes just those few who believe what the bible says
We are God's creation and loved and valued by him. That is why he sent his Son Jesus to die.
Thats the kind of parenting I think we can all do without. It's 2011 people.
That is why he sent his Son Jesus to die.
Jorge Luis Borges makes an excellent case for Judas being the son of god in "Three Versions of Judas"
It is essentially based around the idea that "crucifixion's a doddle"
I'm really interested to know what it is that 'put's people off' so much?
1) I do not believe in gods at all. I don't need to be "put off" I am arational person
2)The enormous damage done by religions. From the deaths from aids preventable by condoms tot eh stopping of stem cell research tot eh wars in the name of religion to the oppression of various groups
Please note I am differentiating between individuals an what they do and the collective organised religion. I have worked with religious people and have even suggested to people they went to a religious figure for help after bereavement when it was appropriate for them
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Nowadays, there's a variety of views within Christianity on how 'Satan' should be understood, ranging from those who believe there is a being of that name, to those who regard it as a personification of the reality of evil, or who discount the belief entirely.
Anything stopping you from applying that logic to god? Ie, he could be a "personification of the reality of good?"
Moreover, how can you cherry-pick to do that with one and not the other? If you redefine one, don't you have to redefine the other too?
What kind of religion HAS AN INSTRUMENT OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AS ITS MOST HOLY SYMBOL?
You know, I always wondered. If it's all true and Jesus made his second coming next week, how would he feel about seeing all his fans carrying an instrument of his torture and death around with them? If it were me, the absolute last thing I'd want to see is a load of bloody crucifixes everywhere.
which is kind of the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan - his care for another human being in need is presented as exemplary, irrespective of his erroneous religious beliefs.
Interesting example. The parable of the 'good Samaritan' is nothing to do with the kindness of strangers. It assumes bigotry on the part of the reader, it's all about someone being good [i]despite[/i] being from Samaria. A modern-day western variant might be "The Good ****stani." Still think it's a good story?
We are God's creation and loved and valued by him.
Taking the first part of that as true for a moment; how do you know the second? Seems to me that, at best, we're tolerated by god rather than "loved and valued."
GrahamS - Member
Why? what is so offensive?
The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn't subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?I find that mildly offensive and I don't even believe in him.
GrahamS - you may (but probably may not) be interested to read this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0712672818/ref=rdr_ext_sb_pi_sims_2
as it tries to argue the similarities between theist Christianity and non-theist Buddhism. When googling the link, I found a similar:
I have the first and might buy the second. Like you I struggle with the exclusive nature of religion (albeit from a different starting point)
Cougar - I am sure you understand the real symbolism of crucifixes!!
Oh yeah, I understand the symbolism. I just think that it's not a great advert for a belief system.
The ultimate sacrifice - seems quite powerful!?!
Not really the ultimate though, is it when you know you'll be back after the weekend!
Oh, of course it's powerful, "he suffered and died for our sins"; depending how cynical you're feeling, it's either a mechanism for instilling gratitude and awe, or fear and guilt.
Typically, one does not start a world-dominating religion whose symbolism is kittens and buttercups.
it's all true
Hallelujah - we have a believer! Step down to the front brother Cougar to receive a blessing!
Still think it's a good story?
Yes - on the basis that it challenges the bigotry and assumptions of his listeners, it's a terrific story. I find Martin Luther King's use of it in his speech the night before he was murdered particularly powerful.
If it were me, the absolute last thing I'd want to see is a load of bloody crucifixes everywhere.
Aside from the reality that you'll struggle to find many Christians carrying 'bloody crucifixes' everywhere, your point echoes that of an eminent German theologian; Jurgen Moltmann, who opens one of his most famous books [u]The Crucified God[/u] with the line [i]"The cross is not and cannot be loved"[/i]. It's a brilliant book, although I couldn't recommend it as a starting point for an exploration of Christian theology.
mcboo +1
Always a pleasure watching god and religion getting Hitchslapped.
Rolls-Royce indeed.
Not really the ultimate though, is it when you know you'll be back after the weekend!
That is Borges point in Three Versions of Judas. Judas actually made the larger sacrifice i.e. eternal damnation where as Jesus just had a few hours on the cross then off to heaven. Therefore Judas was the true personification of God and his ultimate sacrifice.
It's interesting to read Milton's "Paradise Lost" (another proto-superhero/mythical monsters fantasy like the "bible") from the perspective of skeptical atheism - Satan reads like the good guy...
And whilst were on the subject - do you believe that "Superman" is real? Why not? There's loads of books about him and all the miracles he performed. With pictures and everything!!
Another +1 mcboo.
Hitchens - what a fantastic unflinching intellect. I saw the brilliant Sam Harris give a talk earlier in the year in Bristol but I fear I’ll never see Hitch in person.
This is the Greatest Living Englishman at his defiant best.
Ah. is not it nice you have a messiah to worship? 🙂
Interesting to note also that McBoo and Woppit are so full of admiration for a man who is a confirmed Marxist and a fayn of Lenin, Trotsky and Che Guevara. 😆
You make me [i]laugh[/i], you really do. Keep it up, it's very entertaining. 😀
it's all true
Perhaps if you could all come to a working agreement about what truth is, there could be some common ground?
it challenges the bigotry and assumptions of his listeners, it's a terrific story.
Tough call, isn't it.
If I delivered "the story of the good ****stani" that challenged the bigotries of its audience by saying that, well, we all know ****stanis generally despise white men but here's a story of one who doesn't, so maybe you should think about your prejudices cos maybe they're not all like that, how well do you reckon that'd be received?
In context, the story is intended to shock, and the moral is that your "neighbour" might not be who you expect. Maybe you're right, and that is the whole point. Hm.
If god is so powerful that 'he' created the heavens and the earth and all the creatures on the earth, why is 'he' letting the devil ruin it all? There is no logical or illogical reason to torture the population of the planet for no other reason than an egotistical one.
All religious questions that cannot be answered logically are always answered with a further unprovable solution (why do bad things happen? Oh that's the devils fault).
If there is a god, I'm pretty damn sure 'he's wetting himself at this discussion. 'He's certainly not the loving god that most religions portray, 'he's there with a lab coat on connecting electrodes to our brains and rubbing lipstick in our eyes.
And lastly, if there is a god I'm being buried with a baseball bat, cos when I'm stood at those pearly gates, I'm going to beat the sh1t out of 'him'.
Yours sincerely
Angry Atheist.
BTW ta for the Hitchens vid. It reminded me to check whether his books are now on Kindle, and they are so just picked up "God Is Not Great" for about £4! 😆
That's not at all what I'm saying! You have twisted/misinterpreted me. Apologies if it wasn't clear or has caused offence...
This is not about judging people, clasifying them as evil and so please don't mis-represent me on that point.
Sorry theboycopeland, it wasn't my intention to mis-represent you.
I'll quote you, not to poke holes, but to explain where I'm coming from.
You said [i]"the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil"[/i] that (to me) says that we are all slaves/cohorts of the Devil except the followers of your religion, who are saved?
Can I ask: if the devil rules Earth, why is there not [u]more[/u] evilness? Wouldn't he have all us non-believers doing unspeakable things all the time? If the devil controls them then why do non-believers still manage to do good things and lead good lives?
You also said [i]"We have the opportunity to enter God's Kingdom through Jesus"[/i] - given that the alternative seems to be eternal suffering then it seems (to me) like the kind of "opportunity" that the Mafia offer you to avoid having your shop burnt down. 😀
Perhaps if you could all come to a working agreement about what truth is...
I feel a Jack Nicholson moment coming on 😀
Wouldn't he have all us non-believers doing unspeakable things all the time?
Ah, that explains my sex life.
GrahamS - you may (but probably may not) be interested to read this
Beyond my level I'm afraid. Religion interests me, but not to the point I want to get to heavy theological scholarship 🙂 I managed "Life Of Pi" though (good book) 🙂
Actually Buddhism is kind of an interesting one since it seems (to me as a layman) that it is an example of a wise man with some wise advice about life, which then takes on more mystical/spiritual/religious meanings, ceremonies and dogma.
As a non-theist this is how I imagine Christ may have been: a clever dude with some good ideas that other people took and added their own spin.
Keep it up, it's very entertaining.
Yeah - and I'm on for one of the quickest 1000 post threads ever - already overtaken wingeing public sector workers. Keep it up lads (but keep it clean and polite - we don't want no thread locking round here).
Does anyone have a rational explanation for this?
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Excellent debate that has not really descended into farce or name calling. However here is an angry atheist....
[url=
Now Show[/url]
I think he down graded to atheist/agnostic ditherer to sell his latest book, but it is a class rant.
The last minute or so also touches on the many of the issues behind the Leverson inquiry, and whether we are responsible/create the culture/world we deserve.
Does anyone have a rational explanation for this?
Yes Jeremy; it's a light switch.
Buddhism isn't a religion - it's a philosophy.
Like single speeding, but with less hair and chanting instead of swearing.
Is it a "Jesus is aroused" "Jesus is not aroused" indication device? Kind of like a wethervane of religious approval?
I struggle with long sentences so apologies if allready posted [NSFW]
Graham - this isn't meant to sound patronising in any way, but the Living Buddha, Living Christ is a remarkably easy book to read and if you have any Buddhist sympathies, extremely interesting in the argument of the similarities between Buddhism and Christianity. Its also a relatively short one - it is not a scholarly text in style. Thich Naht Han writes in an amazingly peaceful style.
I was tempted to say that he is at peace because he is not an atheist (!) but given that his a Buddhist that would have been ridiculous. So just stopped myself!!
TJ - incredible to think what the reaction would have been if Jesus was replaced by other religious characters.
Anyway, out of all those posting on this thread, how many of you actually listened to all 48 minutes?
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
God this debate is so boring 🙁
Thich Naht Han writes in an amazingly peaceful style.
+1 Finally we agree on something