One of the main ones for me is why some people who I/we pray for get healed and others don't?
There is a really obvious answer to that one from my belief set but perhaps not from yours.
I think that's the kind of thing and thinking that I'm interested in, more from the point of view of you rather than your theology.
Is there a point at which you relinquish attempts at understanding and just accept stuff, or would you..kind of store it for later?
Sorry, I'm struggling to communicate what it is I want to know.
More importantly, i'm not sure what I think on the matter and so I'm retiscent to explore this
I'd have thought that something you weren't sure on would be ideal topics of discussion. By getting input from others (both theists and atheists), you can then reach a more informed conclusion?
doesn't mean you get to make up any old thing and then go "well, you can't prove me wrong!"
Firstly, I've not made anything up, Secondly, I'm not trying to prove you wrong. It's not about winning an argument nor is it about trying to convince you into God's kingdom with clever or not so clever philosophy. That is what cult's do - surely.
Instead, I was suggesting that, given the same lack of objective 'evidence' (that you have acused me of) for a world without a God, athesim is a matter or faith.
Is there a point at which you relinquish attempts at understanding and just accept stuff, or would you..kind of store it for later?
Sorry, I'm struggling to communicate what it is I want to know.
I think perhaps this is something in theology I've always struggled with understanding.
We don't understand the universe so we come up with the concept of god(s) to give us a simpler explanation. But then, it turns out that god is just as complex as the universe was, only now when we seek explanations and clarifications, we're expected to just accept that we don't know, or aren't meant to know. And I think, why didn't we just apply that reasoning to the universe in the first place?
It is interesting the vehemence with which some atheist state their position and argue against the beliefs of others. It makes me wonder why atheists are so angry. Does anyone have a link or something that might explain it? I would continue the 'Pope causes AIDS' debate, but the argument for it seemed a bit incoherent, including a link to a tedious website and some unsupported assertions.
Instead, I was suggesting that, given the same lack of objective 'evidence' (that you have acused me of) for a world without a God, athesim is a matter or faith.
Err, right.
I don't believe in unicorns. That doesn't require faith.
Is there a point at which you relinquish attempts at understanding and just accept stuff, or would you..kind of store it for later?
From a practical viewpoint of course. Otherwise I'd get even less work done.
There are also a lot of folk out there understanding stuff so that I don't have to. I don't think religious questions work in that way though. It's a personal thing.
Has anyone mentioned Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA) on this thread yet? Can't be bothered trawling all through it to see.
I don't think atheism is a matter of faith, more a matter of belief; I think there's a subtle difference.
There are also a lot of folk out there understanding stuff so that I don't have to.
So, you just believe that they've looked into and what they say is true?
Firstly, I've not made anything up,
Not you personally, that's not what I meant.
That is what cult's do - surely.
Careful now. One might ask how you'd differentiate between a cult and an organised religion.
Instead, I was suggesting that, given the same lack of objective 'evidence' (that you have acused me of) for a world without a God, athesim is a matter or faith.
If by "a matter of faith" you'd count an absence of faith then yes, you're right.
A murder is committed in the countryside. There's no DNA evidence, no witnesses. Should we give equal credence to the possibility that the killer might be the local farmer, or might be aliens? After all, we can't disprove either of them.
Instead, I was suggesting that, given the same lack of objective 'evidence' (that you have acused me of) for a world without a God, athesim is a matter or faith.
If you read what myself and others have said above you will see that this is just plain erroneous.
Athiesm is not a matter of faith but a conclusion based on the empirical evidence available at this time. It is open to change on the basis of new evidence.
Athiesm is not a matter of faith but a conclusion based on the empirical evidence available at this time
No, it is the Null hypothesis.
There are also a lot of folk out there understanding stuff so that I don't have to.
So, you just believe that they've looked into and what they say is true?
Interesting point that one. I think it comes down scientific method. Knowledge is gathered, is used to predict results and then tested, the testing produces results that either back up or contradict the original theory. This goes on enough that any false statements should be picked up unless there was a huge conspiracy. It has been shown in many examples that established theories could be wrong. The most obvious being the constant value of c (the speed of light in a vacuum) by Einstein now being challenged by people firing sub atomic particles at each other in Europe.
Religions generally are not open to being tested in the same way, they are also, often self referencing so the proof goes in circles.
As someone who was bought up a catholic but am now an atheist I'm always intrigued with the lack of discussion of Satan in these types of debate. It was one of the parts of faith that I struggled with and made me question it generally.
So, you just believe that they've looked into and what they say is true?
Aye. All the time. You do too. Or are you so expert in all fields that you don't need to rely on experts to do the really hard sums for you?
rely on experts to do the really hard sums for you?
I have that base covered nicely with a wife with an BSC in Sums and an MSc in Hard Sums for Work and Runny Stuff.
I'd have thought that something you weren't sure on would be ideal topics of discussion. By getting input from others (both theists and atheists), you can then reach a more informed conclusion?
Fair point - although I'm sure it assumes a certain belief in God to even entertain the debate.
Essentially, the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil, which offers insight into why evil exists and why 'bad' stuff happens. It is the devil's purpose to destroy and separate God's creation. We have the opportunity to enter God's Kingdom through Jesus. When this occurs we see miracles and healings, people raised from the dead and lives transformed as God's kingdom breaks through. However, the world is as yet not under the Kingdom of God and therefore it's a tough place. The hope is that it won't always be like this and that God wants everyone to be part of that Kingdom - hence the purpose of Jesus.
As a society, through free will, we have moved further and further away from relationship with God (I'm not talking about religion here either). If you remove the light from a room you are left with darkness. Essentially, I think this is what we are observing in society and how we might begin to explain some of the struggles we see reported each day.
You asked.
Aye. All the time. You do too. Or are you so expert in all fields that you don't need to rely on experts to do the really hard sums for you?
Nope, but I'm not the one who has problems with folks believing stuff they don't have evidence for.
It is interesting the vehemence with which some theists state their position and argue against the beliefs of others. It makes me wonder why theists are so angry. Does anyone have a link or something that might explain it?
I pretended my willy was an angry Elf; purple with rage....
😆
I compared my willy to Elfin, which is possibly a compliment, although I'm not sure who for...
A compliment to your willy, fo' sho! 😀
Mind you, imagine if you had this eye staring back at you if you decided to indulge in a little recreational polishing:
[img] 
[/img]
😯
Lordy. That's the thread gone horribly wrong then...
No, it is the Null hypothesis
surely this depends on your world view?
the empirical evidence available at this time
This is what I am doing too. Only, I am open to an alternative world view.
I'm sorry to say this as this has been an interesting discussion but that is some proper bonkers nonsense you are talking there theboycopeland.
Lets MTFU in best STW style and admit that if the world is f*cked up we f*cked it up not the devil and if it's going to be fixed we need to fix it, not god.
Thinking like that is the single worst thing about organised religion and the reason why I would concur with Phillip Pullman in saying that if god ain't dead we need to kill him.
I'm sorry to say this as this has been an interesting discussion but that is some proper bonkers nonsense you are talking there theboycopeland.
No need to apologies for holding a different view.
Thinking like that is the single worst thing about organised religion
Why? what is so offensive?
what do the believers think they fill their cars up with?
what do the believers think they fill their cars up with?
Believers of what?
Why? what is so offensive?
The notion that we can blame the ills of the world on the devil and the good on god.
Lets shoulder the blame and the credit ourselves and try to move forward in sorting it out as best we can.
what do the believers think they fill their cars up with?
🙂
Essentially, the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil, which offers insight into why evil exists and why 'bad' stuff happens. It is the devil's purpose to destroy and separate God's creation.
Out of interest do you believe the Devil was created by God the creator?
Believers of what?
Creationism
Believers of what?
Global Warming (I think)
what do the believers think they fill their cars up with?
Unicorn piss - next question?
Believers of what?Creationism
Now, you know not all Christians are creationists in the pure sense, don't you?
No, it is the Null hypothesis.
Ok, so if I'd said athiesm is a conclusion based on the LACK if empirical evidence would that work?
Creationism
Right, ok.
So a relatively very small number of people then, rather than 'believers' in general?
I think the whole 12 pages in and no one has been that rude to anyone else is a commendable thing.
It's clear that religion in general has been a major, possibly the major thing in the development of society. It's a bit of a strange concept to me certainly, but I'm happy for folk to believe what they would like to. Some people ride Orange 5s, for Gods sake...
Essentially, the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil, which offers insight into why evil exists and why 'bad' stuff happens. It is the devil's purpose to destroy and separate God's creation.
I have always thought that the Abrahamic religions consisted of two gods: the "good" one (Yahweh or whatever his name is) and the Devil. I don't see many references to the devil in the bible. I reckon it is just dogma, control mechanism for the masses.
Nope [b]Spin[/b] nice try...
I have always thought that the Abrahamic religions consisted of two gods: the "good" one (Yahweh or whatever his name is) and the Devil
Can't speak for Judiasm or Islam, but Christianity has not traditionally referred to Satan/Devil as having divine status. Nowadays, there's a variety of views within Christianity on how 'Satan' should be understood, ranging from those who believe there is a being of that name, to those who regard it as a personification of the reality of evil, or who discount the belief entirely.
I'm an atheist, I'm not angry but thanks for the sweeping generalization anyway 🙂
Essentially, the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil, which offers insight into why evil exists and why 'bad' stuff happens. It is the devil's purpose to destroy and separate God's creation. We have the opportunity to enter God's Kingdom through Jesus. When this occurs we see miracles and healings, people raised from the dead and lives transformed as God's kingdom breaks through. However, the world is as yet not under the Kingdom of God and therefore it's a tough place. The hope is that it won't always be like this and that God wants everyone to be part of that Kingdom - hence the purpose of Jesus.
I know we are all bending over backwards not to offend anyone and that is nice to see. But stuff like this just gives me the creeps and as I remember is what made me an atheist in the first place.
I don't want this kind of nonsense near my children.
So, you just believe that they've looked into and what they say is true?
a) I tend to research, to the best of my limited ability, anything before I take it as fact.
b) When my knowledge / intelligence runs out, I rely on peer review to validate "facts". To wit, whenever someone thinks they've discovered something, a host of very very clever people will try to pick holes in it. (The originator welcomes this; compare and contrast religion)
I'm always intrigued with the lack of discussion of Satan in these types of debate.
's a good point. I thought they were mutually related.
I'm sure it assumes a certain belief in God to even entertain the debate.
Only if you're looking for opinions which already fit your world view.
You asked.
I did, and I genuinely appreciate your candour.
I think the whole 12 pages in and no one has been that rude to anyone else is a commendable thing.
Prick.
(-:
Why? what is so offensive?
The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn't subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?
I find that mildly offensive and I don't even believe in him. 🙂
An omniscient omnipotent patriarchal entity that created the Universe and all of the variety of life contained within. What is the purpose? A test? To be worshiped? The whole concept sounds suspiciously human to me and with not a shred of evidence I'm not buying it.
Not angry though. I still marvel at the sheer improbibility of our exisitence, the real story - the one backed by evidence - of our origin is just so much more miraculous.
justatheory +1.
What kind of a loving god plays games with human lives anyway? What kind of religion HAS AN INSTRUMENT OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AS ITS MOST HOLY SYMBOL?
The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn't subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?I find that mildly offensive and I don't even believe in him
I'd like to offer the argument that it's not a particularly biblical view either; there's ample evidence in there of the need to acknowledge 'good' wherever we find it, which is kind of the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan - his care for another human being in need is presented as exemplary, irrespective of his erroneous religious beliefs.