Buddhism isn't a religion - it's a philosophy.
Yep, as I said.
It is a set of philosophical ideas from this real thoughtful bloke (Siddhartha Gautama) who himself apparently regarded a belief in God as unhealthy.
But look at the reverence, temples, ceremony and you have to wonder where this will be in 500 years or so.
Living Buddha, Living Christ is a remarkably easy book to read and if you have any Buddhist sympathies
Cheers. Maybe I'll give it a look one day. I have "sympathies" for all faiths as I do think they often have interesting philosophical things to say, even if I reject the supernatural aspects.
God this debate is so boring
However, it does seem to have turned you to prayer, so [i]"every cloud..."[/i] and all that 😉
GrahamS as a dabbler of religion in youth [ and studying bits at Uni] only buddhism has given me things i still use in my daily life - also not a person of faith but much of what it says is very usefull/interesting
Does anyone have a rational explanation for this?
easy, people buy tat 😉
😀
Off to bed. God bless all 😉
Marcus, not all Muslims go around blowing stuff up, stop the lazy generalisation. The non-bombers are not responsible for the others. I've heard this before and was very disappointed to hear him come out with this ignorant tripe.
Well done Charlie for both not listening to his point and confirming it at the same time 😀
Morning.
Sorry theboycopeland, it wasn't my intention to mis-represent you.
Cheers Graham
You said "the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil" that (to me) says that we are all slaves/cohorts of the Devil except the followers of your religion, who are saved?
Not what I was saying - we have free will, not slaves nor the 'devil's cohort' as you suggest. Simply seperated from God, living outside of his Kingdom.
You also said "We have the opportunity to enter God's Kingdom through Jesus" - given that the alternative seems to be eternal suffering then it seems (to me) like the kind of "opportunity" that the Mafia offer you to avoid having your shop burnt down.
Using your analogy - I would sugget it's more like the shop keeper saying to the mafia, come spend time with me, I'll teach you how to build a shop like mine and you can then serve your community in love and be transformed through the process. Being a Christian is about transformation not transaction.
Your stance does raise an important point though about the general perception of the heart of God and Jesus. This notion that God is somehow oppressive and limiting. My experience is the exact opposite. It's about freedom from oppression and abundance in life.
Ultimately, the emotional/spiritual element to this cannot be conveyed through a philosophical argument no matter how well constructed. It's clearly an important issue for some and it's great that we have the freedom to debate it - let's hope we don't lose that freedom through any reforms to the press etc.
"Muslims, listen up my bearded and veily friends, calm down, stop blowing things up" - big round of applause.
Etc.
That's ok is it? You're a ****ing idiot.
"Religions and violence go together"
- come one, this isn't the sixth form
I know you're probably not an idiot.
The idea that the majority are responsible for the extremists is just a categorisation error. The majority are not related to the extreme in any way. The majority of muslim are no more to blame for extremists militant groups anymore than the rest of us. Are you responsible for the EDL or NF?
Yes i heard it, i assume you did too. Imguess you just think he is right!
Having reread both my posts i see they make the same point, please tell what i haven't listened to or which point i have confirmed?
Are you responsible for the EDL or NF?
I think we could be held indirectly responsible if we didn't challenge their attitudes instead of sticking our fingers in our ears and going "na na na nowt to do with us mate, they're fundamentalists innit."
If the EDL are making statements about what "the English" want, we non-EDL English should be standing up and going "actually, that's not what we want at all." If they're protesting, we should be protesting back. They've not quite got round to sticking a bomb up Nick Griffin's arse yet (more's the pity), but if they did would it be ok for us to stand back and give a little gallic shrug about those wacky extremists?
If we don't speak out against them then what we are there is passive sympathisers, and we're absolutely responsible. It's not acceptable to simply go "not my problem" and expect sympathy from the rest of the populace.
In that case it looks like most mainstream muslims have done at least as much as that. But no one is tarring you wth the same brush, they realise that there is great variety englishness and thay the EDL are not as one with the majority, it requires no deep insight to see that that is the same with islam
EDIT: Holds tongue. Tactical withdrawal to calmer waters. Not responding to gormless provocation.
please tell what i haven't listened to or which point i have confirmed?
Happy to, but please let's not let this interesting discussion get ruined by raised tempers or name calling. Okay?
The point you didn't appear to have listened to (in your first post) was you said [i]"not all Muslims go around blowing stuff up, stop the lazy generalisation"[/i], but that was exactly what he said: [i]"I know that most religious folk are moderate and nice and reasonable and wear tidy jumpers and eat cheese like real people"[/i]
His point is that yes, there are a few nutters in each faith, and yes the normal moderates distance themselves from the nutters - BUT they do still serve as a powerbase. I think Cougar expands on this rather well.
The point which you confirmed was that each faith will see his rant as an attack specifically on them, ignoring his comments about the other faiths.
Fred, really are a t1t. I almost don't know why I (or anybody else) bothers to respond to your stupid comments.
He just comes barging onto a thread and starts gobbing off. Is just a little child looking for attention.
Plenty of adults on here. Ignore him.
See: EDIT
theboycopeland: Morning 🙂
Your stance does raise an important point though about the general perception of the heart of God and Jesus. This notion that God is somehow oppressive and limiting. My experience is the exact opposite. It's about freedom from oppression and abundance in life.
I don't see your God as particularly "oppressive or limiting" (though some aspects of Christian sects do seem that way to me).
My objection (and I think this might be an objection to your description rather than the religious teaching) is the idea that he offers freedom, abundance, healing but ONLY if you follow and worship him.
I understand you see this as a transformation, but you describe it as a transformation that is only available to those who give themselves to God - which is surely also a transaction? "Follow me and good things happen, don't and you are doomed to a life without freedom, abundance and healing in a kingdom ruled* by the Devil"
.
(* though not actually ruled. It's more of a ceremonial position apparently. 😈 )
Hitchens is bang on when he talks about religion being based on "loving that which you fear". Sorry, no I'm not going to live in fear, I want to have as fullfiling a life as I possibly can and take as many people along as I can.
In that case it looks like most mainstream muslims have done at least as much as that.
Have they? All the soundbites I've heard from spokespeople from the Muslim community have pretty much said exactly what you said in your earlier post, distancing themselves from the actions of extremists rather than condemning them. Maybe I've just not heard the right media output. (EDIT - this maybe sounds inflammatory, but I meant it sincerely. Maybe I [i]have [/i]simply not heard the same things you have.)
I understand that being beardy with a rucksack and a tan doesn't make you a terrorist of course; but in a climate where people are twitchy, I think perhaps the Muslim community could make more of an effort to be seen to be doing something to root out these criminals and prevent terrorist activities. I think perhaps other people would be less quick to judge and generalise if they did.
Jesus was a black man.
No Jesus was Batman
No, no, no, no, not at all.
That was Bruce Wayne
I think goes to show the confusion that can happen when we talk about religion! 😯
HTH!
I think all the religions are guilty of this Cougar.
They shouldn't just be [i]distancing themselves[/i] from the extremists. They should be standing up with one voice, from the newest initiate to the most senior, and saying [i]"No! That is not OUR faith. You do not represent US. What you do is against our God."[/i] and doing so repeatedly until their voice is louder than the nutters.
Why assume that all people who profess to having faith, etc, live in fear mcboo? Hitchens is, of course, entitled to his opinions, but he doesnt know me, does he? Yes, I believe in God, but much like you, I want to live as fulfilling a life as possible. My religion is only one part of my life, one aspect that makes up 'me' if you like. I'm a psychiatric nurse, and have been for twenty odd years now - I feel this is a more important aspect of me as a person than the fact I'm a catholic. I have a beautiful wife and four fantastic kids, and these are what define me more than anything else. I think one of the misconceptions about people who are religious is that their faith is all encompassing, that they're all out to convert you or 'ram their faith down your throat' (always makes me laugh that, and be honest, how often does it happen these days?). Bottom line, for me at least, is to enjoy life and treat people with respect, and I can manage that with or without religion.
Graham > that's it exactly, yes. Well said.
<mytwocents> I'm am atheist, and I'm not angry. Fairy tales lost their relevance to me many years ago. Forgive me, I don't spend huge amounts of time thinking about it, but it's always been my impression that religion's purpose was to explain the unknown to a worried populous; why the sun comes up, what happens when we die, why do people do bad things, why does a country need to invade and massacre large numbers of people, etc etc. Since we have a better understanding of (most) of these sorts of things now, I struggle to see the relevance of religion in the modern world, and am always a little bemused when otherwise intelligent people cling to the concept for no particularly rational reason. Not angry though, and thoroughly believe in the concept of live and let live (unlike a lot of religious types, it seems...) </mytwocents>
I think one of the misconceptions about people who are religious is that their faith is all-encompassing, that they're all out to convert you or 'ram their faith down your throat' (always makes me laugh that, and be honest, how often does it happen these days?).
3 times in the past 5 days, here. Pushy young men in cheap shiny suits with very polished teeth wanting to "talk to me about God", who wouldn't take "I'm not interested, pal" as an answer. I'll cast no aspersions as to which denomination they might fall under, but it does make me wonder what they think they'll achieve. I'm a grumpy looking bugger with a large beard and a permanent air of pi$$ed-off-ness, maybe they just fancy a challenge. 🙂
Yep, we've got a very persistent Jehovah's Witness who has been to our door at least a dozen times now.
The missus made the mistake of engaging in conversation with him because (as a Dr) she was interested in the JW's beliefs about blood transfusion, transplants etc and wanted to understand how to talk to them about it in her clinics.
Now he keeps showing up and alternately giving us books/DVDs and asking if we read/watched them yet. Every time we try to explain that we are not religious and not interested we get another book to explain why we should be 😀
Still. Saves buying firelighters I suppose. 😈
Honestly pyro, never happened to me. Having said that, a few years ago, when working at a secure unit, I escorted one of the punters, who was a jehovas witness, to the local kingdom hall. Interesting evening, and I agree about the suits. They were quite keen to invite me to attend on a more regular basis, but lost all interest when I informed them I was 'already spoken for'. 😉
(edit) I suppose that kind of weakens my point a bit - arse!
I'm am atheist, and I'm not angry.
You'd do well to watch at least a few minutes of the video in the OP. Whilst you may remain 'not angry', it'll perhaps help you understand why some people are.
Now he keeps showing up and alternately giving us books/DVDs and asking if we read/watched them yet.
The mistake you're making there is accepting the books etc. Remember the Grange Hill campaign.
You just need to become a Catholic, Graham. Apparently mentioning you're one of those scares them off. I suppose you might get away with just lying, but given you've previously said you're not religious, you probably need to do the full conversion thing and go to church every week in order to convince them. Have fun.
Saying you're not religious just marks you down as somebody who hasn't yet seen the light.
GrahamS as before, do you think this is ok?
"Muslims, listen up my bearded and veily friends, calm down, stop blowing things up" - big round of applause.
Etc.
Cougar
Have they? All the soundbites I've heard from spokespeople from the Muslim community have pretty much said exactly what you said in your earlier post, distancing themselves from the actions of extremists rather than condemning them. Maybe I've just not heard the right media output. (EDIT - this maybe sounds inflammatory, but I meant it sincerely. Maybe I have simply not heard the same things you have.)
They do not seek to distance themselves from it, that implies that they are in some way associated with it. They state that they are nothing to do with it. They condemn the violence in they same way they would condemn any other act of violence you would ask about. They should not be required to speak out against it any more than the should be required to speak out against the EDL or the actions of the Christian right in America.
I understand that being beardy with a rucksack and a tan doesn't make you a terrorist of course; but in a climate where people are twitchy, I think perhaps the Muslim community could make more of an effort to be seen to be doing something to root out these criminals and prevent terrorist activities.
Why because they are the same colour? Or they pray to the same God? This is exactly the generalisation which I think is wrong. Folks seem to fail to understand that the Militant Islamists / Muslims have as little to do with the majority of Muslims as they have to do with any other section of society you wish to identify.
I think perhaps other people would be less quick to judge and generalise if they did.
and if black people kept their heads down and kept to themselves they would get less abuse? That other people judge and generalise is the fault of the other people. It is not for the majority of Muslims to act to pacify them
Graham in my experience only rudeness works with these people..open door holding bombers scream obscenities, chase them down the street [ clothes are optional]
HTH
When I moved ito my house they knocked on my door as my "neighbours" so i invited them in for a friendly chat not knowing who they were. When they finally confessed. i told them to F off and never come back to my house or next time i would be rude and angry
Its a win win they never came back and I reinforced their faith buy persecuting them
I think perhaps the Muslim community could make more of an effort to be seen to be doing something to root out these criminals and prevent terrorist activities.
They do this in th mosques and the islamic schools rather than throught the media...it is hardly surprsing that we dont knwo what they do as we dont go to mosques.
Interestingly a mate of mine had problems in his mosque with extremists about 10 years ago and the police were not interested saying it was an internal matter and not criminal...these days they come and have chats on a regular basis and share concerns. it does happen but it is not often reported
but it's always been my impression that religion's purpose was to explain the unknown to a worried populous; why the sun comes up, what happens when we die, why do people do bad things, why does a country need to invade and massacre large numbers of people, etc etc.
In that case I'm not surprised religion has lost its relevance to you.
I've always seen mobile phones as a means of waking me up, since i bought an alarm clock the phone is pointless
[i]I've always seen mobile phones as a means of waking me up, since i bought an alarm clock the phone is pointless [/i]
Humanity needed religion to explain why.
now we have developed science to the point where it is getting closer and closer to honestly answering as many of our questions as possible, religion is pointless 🙂
Humanity needed religion to explain why.
nope
What is the purpose of religion?
No, wrong way round. You made the statement, you need to support it. If I say it is to preserve butterflies and you show that it is not, it does not make your statement right.
Tim - religion may be pointless to you, but to some people it's a great comfort. The point I'm trying to make, I suppose, is that people should be entitled to their own views, and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it.
Junkyard - Member. Thich Naht Han writes in an amazingly peaceful style.+1 Finally we agree on something
Some (might) say that God moves in mysterious ways JY!! 😉
...people should be entitled to their own views, and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it...
i have the right to criticise and belittle anyone i want.
i like watching babylon5 - i expect to be mocked, mercilessly, for admitting this, but i don't mind - it goes with the territory.
Humanity needed religion to explain why.
[s]Nope[/s]
Yep.
(obviously I don't need to qualify my reply, either.)
[i]No, wrong way round. You made the statement, you need to support it. If I say it is to preserve butterflies and you show that it is not, it does not make your statement right. [/i]
Ok in that case, I dont need to explain my statement then.
I dont know the purpose of religion, I never have. Just seems to be a human construct.
Therefore I assume that humanity developed religion and the concept of deities it as a fallback to explain things that we werent sufficienct developed enough to understand, but had intense curiosity about.
You obviously DONT feel that humans needed religion to explain why. therefore I assume you have an alternative viewpoint on the matter?
and belittle anyone i want.
Wow, that's quite a high set of personal standards you set yourself ahwiles?!?
If that is what makes you happy.....
Mitch - The very basis, that absolute foundation of Abrahamic religion is that man must fear god. You may not live in fear but that isnt really the point.
Edit
and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it.
I'm not going to go out of my way to criticise you but no, sorry if I do I have every right to do so and any offence caused is I am afraid irrelivent, completely so. That is the most important idea to come out of the Enlightenment.
teamhurtmore - Member
Wow, that's quite a high set of personal standards you set yourself ahwiles?!?
they're not my standards, they're everyone's.