[Closed] Why are Scottish and Welsh folk so patriotic ?

I don't agree with a lot of this- Orwell was a fud- but this is interesting reading considering where the thread's gone now, I kind of alluded to it earlier but should have linked

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

There is undoubdedly a massive sweet spot where this is entirely possible.

You're certainly a lot closer to the sweet spot than Wales. In fact Wales is sort of at the extreme end of both at the same time somehow. 🙂

BTW we have a separatist/nationalist movement here in Yorkshire!

http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk

(not to be confused with Britain First)

BTW we have a separatist/nationalist movement here in Yorkshire!

I visit York every October for a weekend for no other reason than I really like it. It's a fabulous city...but every single time I visit i'm informed that as a Scotsman, it's still legal to shoot arrows at me. 😯

They are as proud and patriotic about their part of the world as any Scotsman or Welshman without coming across as dicks about it.

Eh? They're just parochial.

.....which kinda demonstrates my original point.

English people don't understand because they're all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours

QED

The most hilariously parochial example I've ever seen of looking down on your regional neighbours was on Islay in Scotland. In one of the pubs in Port Ellen the local football team gave a rousing seemingly heartfelt rendition of:

Oh they're all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore
Oh they're all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore
They're all a bunch of bastards
All a bunch of bastards
Oh they're all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore

😀

@epicyclo Yes principally the tobacco Lords few in number maybe but I suggest not something a modern Scot should be proud of
[url= https://glasgowwestindies.wordpress.com/the-scottish-involvement-with-caribbean-slavery/ ]Glasgow and the West Indies [/url]

...and Peter Reid apparently has a monkeys heed. 🙂

What's yer point caller? That people who support one football team sometimes say unpleasant things about supporters of an opposing team? How very parochial of them.:-)

thanks for the answers...I'm still confused !

They're just parochial.

The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war.
Sydney J. Harris, Strictly Personal (1953), "Purely Personal Prejudices"

Of course - there are many ardent Nationalists that will swear they are 'merely' patriots as if patriotism is somehow watered-down Nationalism. I agree with grum that they are connected, and often 'two sides of a coin' even if only as a 'polite' cover for Nationalism. Those who for whatever reason make no distinction in usage view both words as interchangeable. More confusing still - one can be both and the other. ie the US patriot who says 'my Country right or wrong'. He might not even know he's a Nationalist as Nationalism is normalised in his experience of being a 'patriot'.

All very confusing. I'm sticking to humanism, and I don't care what your grandad did wrong

Do you think the Norman’s really wanted to conquer Wales? It was difficult and expensive and didn’t generate any income.

I hope you're not studying history. Or maybe you are and just haven't got to the Normans yet. They were great, the Normans but one thing to know about them - they weren't peaceful pastoralists who took ages to wind up. They didn't invade Wales because we annoyed them. 😉

It's slightly exaggerated sterotyping for comic effect basically trying to poke fun at our English neighbours who let an overabundence of self loathing get in the way of a bit of entirely justifiable national pride

What's self loathing got to do with it? What's wrong with just going about your business and not worrying about how your birth nation defines you and wanting affirmation and recognition for that?

Think I'll stick with indifference or "self loathing" as you call it rather than overblown self aggrandisment based on nationality.

What's wrong with just going about your business and not worrying about how your birth nation defines you and wanting affirmation and recognition for that?

Wont happen. The ego craves identity, purpose, and belonging too much.

Wont happen. The ego craves identity, purpose, and belonging too much.

I don't worry about how my birth nation defines me (except for govt or group behaviour making me and my family a target for those wronged by my birth Nation), neither do I want affirmation or recognition for it. Does this mean my ego is either broken, or is it not fragile enough? Serious question...the whole thing is lile racial politics and gender identity politics. I just wish people would back off, that it would all just f-off so we can find out what humans can REALLY do when we get tired of going around in predictable, insecure, childish circles Harumph.

[img] [/img]

Does this mean my ego is either broken, or is it not fragile enough? Serious question..

Not a question I can answer. If you find it let me know as I feel much the same.

Somebody posted a while back would we be prepared to speak German 'to break down barriers' well, if it could be arranged to have a continental/global language I'd gladly ditch English to make it happen.

I love Wales. I can't tell if it's because I identify as Welsh or it really is nice. Perhaps a bit of both. I love Britain too, perhaps for similar reasons. I love Scotland as a concept but I've not spent much time there so I don't have the same affinity.

However I also love Sweden and Finland greatly, even though I have absolutely no national or familial connection.

So what does that tell us about patriotism? I don't know!

After living in Finland for over a year I felt great joy to be back on a Welsh mountain trail, but that's mostly because I missed the climbing and the view 🙂

I remember hearing an interview with a lady from Plaid Cymru. She didn't sound like the sharpest tool in the box all the way through the interview and some young lad phoned in and made her look really silly.
At the end the interviewer asked her if she had any words she'd like to share. She said "every morning I wake up and thank god I'm welsh".
WTF?!? Has she got nothing more going for her than the fact she happened to be born in wales? Had she not got a message for any for potential/swing voters? Inspirational advice for young people? Even just take the opportunity to slag off the tories?
Nope. Just a jingoist, small minded fluffy pile of crap.

WTF?!? Has she got nothing more going for her than the fact she happened to be born in wales? Had she not got a message for any for potential/swing voters? Inspirational advice for young people? Even just take the opportunity to slag off the tories?
Nope. Just a jingoist, small minded fluffy pile of crap.

As someone who would like to see Wales move towards independence, I agree. I find it depressing, but no great surprise, that UKIP are about to over take them in popularity.

[quote=wrecker ]I remember hearing an interview with a lady from Plaid Cymru. She didn't sound like the sharpest tool in the box all the way through the interview and some young lad phoned in and made her look really silly.
At the end the interviewer asked her if she had any words she'd like to share. She said "every morning I wake up and thank god I'm welsh".
WTF?!? Has she got nothing more going for her than the fact she happened to be born in wales? Had she not got a message for any for potential/swing voters? Inspirational advice for young people? Even just take the opportunity to slag off the tories?
Nope. Just a jingoist, small minded fluffy pile of crap.
You maybe missed the intended joke.

ben cooper
From the Auld Alliance to today's arguments about refugees, Scotland has been more interested in other peoples and countries - kinda helps also that so many Scots emigrated.

I'm just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia, when it's more about getting away from our increasingly insular and xenophobic neighbour.

This is one of the greatest examples of STW diarrhea I have heard.
Firstly the areas of settlement of immigrants within the UK over the last century do not back up your claim. 8,000,000 of the UK population are from ethnic minorities. That is 14%. The figure for Scotland alone stands at 2%.

Religious xenophobia has been commonplace in Scotland for centuries. Persecution, not getting jobs from going to the wrong school or supporting the wrong football, particularly in the West of Scotland.

Also, staying with Glasgow, within the time period you describe, read gordimhors link about how Glasgow went from being one of the poorest cities in Europe to one of it's richest based on the trade of products produced from slave labour. By the turn of the 18th century, Scots owned 30% of estates in Jamaica and 30% of its slaves. Although few slave ships left Scottish ports, Scotland it appears did VERY well out of slavery. Not just a few tobacco lords as epicyclo claims.

How can the wealth of Scotlands most populace city be based on tobacco, sugar and cotton, and you claim its inhabitants were interested the people working to produce that wealth?!

Don't get me wrong, it is not all bad as Scotland was also instrumental in the abolition of the slave trade, but perhaps you should walk along Jamaica Street and see some of the buildings slave money built before making spurious claims.

I would also take issue about Scots feeling greater affinity to todays refugees. An example being the proposal to use a former nursing home in the town I grew up to house families from Syria. The comments were mainly against it, with the same old 'we should look after our own first' being trotted out.

I think when indy comes, soon after you will see the same people currently claiming to be on the side of immigrants wishing to shut up shop to them. I am saddened but not surprised at the short sightedness of people I know that are pro indy, pro EU and pro Brexit to serve their own need.

This whole they are xenophobic next door while we are not, reeks of jingoism. In truth I can't see a great deal of difference of opinion where I travel. I am currently in heated discussion with a Dutch mate who I consider a fellow countryman I suppose, who is a supporter of Farage.

I feel fortunate to live where I do. I do not feel proud or patriotic about it. I have been called and will continue to be called a traitor for it. Never mind.

I think my link is a good article in so far as it examines the role of the tobacco Lords and others at the time. I do not agree with the author about the presentation of a Disney version of the diaspora in recent years.
I'm sure we can both find plenty of examples of Scots who have acted in the most xenophobic way towards refugees. One of the highlights of last year for me was helping out with a group who took several lorry loads of donations for refugees to Calais and to Greece. The group has volunteers from both sides of the referendum division who cooperated to help people in dire need. It is as easily possible for people to be nationalist and outward looking as it is for them to be unionist and outward looking.

I would also take issue about Scots feeling greater affinity to todays refugees.

That's a bit harsh. Didn't Ms Strugeon put some refugees up herself? A really noble gesture that must have been very welcome by the lucky few.

It is good gordimhor, and it also shows how the trickle down effect helped lift the wealth of a city. I few extremely wealthy tobacco lords have to spend that money somehow.

Apologies for my stealth edit

gordimhor
I'm sure we can both find plenty of examples of Scots who have acted in the most xenophobic way towards refugees. One of the highlights of last year for me was helping out with a group who took several lorry loads of donations for refugees to Calais and to Greece. The group has volunteers from both sides of the referendum division who cooperated to help people in dire need. It is as easily possible for people to be nationalist and outward looking as it is for them to be unionist and outward looking.

This is a good point. I have just don't feel as stated that Scotland is anymore or less welcoming or more or less xenophobic than elsewhere. I don't think current affairs or history back it up. I do though think that immigration will be as hotly and similarly discussed as everywhere else in the Europe, however takes a slightly back seat at the minute.

I have just don't feel as stated that Scotland is anymore or less welcoming or more or less xenophobic than elsewhere.

It's hard to tell what the general public thinks, but politically Scotland is much more welcoming of refugees compared to the Westminster government. Does that truly reflect public opinion? I don't know - I know friends and relatives in England are disgusted by Cameron's comments.

You lot are confused.

On the one hand you encourage or emphasise individuality and identity ...

On the other hand you want to ensure everyone conforms to a greater identity ...

Told you I see you coming ... you lot are messed up ... 🙄

From the Auld Alliance to today's arguments about refugees, Scotland has been more interested in other peoples and countries - kinda helps also that so many Scots emigrated.

I'm just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia, when it's more about getting away from our increasingly insular and xenophobic neighbour.

Scottish independence/patriotism isn't about xenophobia or nationalism (as defined by others earlier), it's just that you're better than us so you don't want to be associated with us. Ah ok! 🙂

It's not that we don't want to be associated with you, we just don't want to be run by the Westminster parliament. Close friends and equals, not inferior partners in a dysfunctional relationship 😉

bencooper - Member

It's not that we don't want to be associated with you, we just don't want to be run by the Westminster parliament. Close friends and equals, not inferior partners in a dysfunctional relationship

Just like we (me more precisely) don't want to be associated with stooopid [b]EU[/b]SSR but I have feeling the Scots might sabotage it by voting to join [b]EU[/b]SSR ... in that case we at the (not me precisely but the English) Westminster should tax the Scots even more and cut their benefits ... ya ... no more hand outs ... Yes?

Do you want to have independent or not? FFS! Make up your mind. Freeedoomm!

😛

It's not that we don't want to be associated with you, we just don't want to be run by the Westminster parliament. Close friends and equals, not inferior partners in a dysfunctional relationship

You "just want to be friends"? Damn....

It's not that we don't want to be associated with you, we just don't want to be run by the Westminster parliament.

Neither do a lot of English people...

chewkw
You lot are confused.

On the one hand you encourage or emphasise individuality and identity ...

On the other hand you want to ensure everyone conforms to a greater identity ...

It absolutely pains me to say this but as well as managing to string a couple of coherent sentences together I agree with chewkw to an extent.

ben, people often use the argument that what makes Scotland for example is a series of characteristics and commonality of its people and we should feel this sense of identity based on a geography of being from or living in Scotland, whilst next door is not about the people, rather an overarching doom and xenophobia, and aloofness that stems from a government.

Ask a sickly inner city Labour voting London living graduate who can ill afford their rent due to paying off student loans and seeing council tax rises, and who has to pay for their prescription, if they think they are fortunate that a Tory government has in fact chosen to help them by instead giving Scotland a S***e deal.

Ask a junior doctor in Leeds if they think junior doctors in Scotland have things worse.

Perhaps get your head out the 'movement' once in a while. It may open your eyes.

If you don't want them as your countrymen/women due to some reasons of getting away from xenophobia, then fair enough, I will call them mine, neither British or Scottish.

athgray - Member

Since you are doing your "you have all been brainwashed" pish that you like to wheel out, care to comment on the below stats?
UKIP 14.1% of the vote England
UKIP 1.6%.............Scotland (2015 GE) Is that current enough for you?

You increasingly act like a pound shop Teamhurtmore on these threads.

UKIP 1.6%

There's been some pretty ridiculous stuff in that thread but you just raised the bar, good show 😆

You increasingly act like a pound shop Teamhurtmore on these threads.

😀 on a roll ducks! good job neither of us as super-sensitive bunnies 😉

Stick with it ATG - the suppression of debate and the "rhetoric trumps reality" have had enough of their time in the limelight

It's called the SNP in Scotland,

Bravo!

That's another angle on the patriotic/nationalistic argument. Perfectly alright for SNP to negotiate in the interests of Scotland but if rUK does the same that is bullying!!

You have to smile at the bare faced cheek of it!

You increasingly act like a pound shop Teamhurtmore on these threads.

5thElefant - Member

UKIP 1.6%

It's called the SNP in Scotland, and does a lot better than UKIP does in England.

I don't think from personal experience the English are more xenophobic,but that was a counter to his point,certainly more of them identify with the "ideas" of a party like UKIP for some reason.

Bravo!

That's another angle on the patriotic/nationalistic argument. Perfectly alright for SNP to negotiate in the interests of Scotland but if rUK does the same that is bullying!!

You have to smile at the bare faced cheek of it!

I know, imagine expecting the UK government to actually deliver on the promises they made during the referendum!

Maybe they just don't want to be part of a bigger, authoritive, controlling enitity and would like to be free to decide on how their country is run for themselves?
Sound familiar?

I know, imagine expecting the UK government to actually deliver on the promises they made during the referendum!

Hmm, while ignoring the fact that the government in Holyrood renage on theirs. What's the expression - "double....."?

In what way is Scotland a bigger controlling entity? still glad you have empathy for wanting indy.
In what way have the SNP reneged;by refusing to use the watered down version of the "vow"? Cracking example there.

Wonder why I have never seen you on newsnight....Too busy with your Daily Mail perhaps.

In what way is Scotlan a bigger controlling entity?

still glad you have empathy for wanting indy.