an even spesholer one to still bear a grudge all those years later.
If I were forcibly evicted and my village destroyed, in order to provide water for a city in another country, I might feel a bit miffed...
Really? I'd be miffed but my miffedness would not have anything to do with what part of the country the water was going to.
Absolve the lot. Lets all just go our separate ways.
It'll be worth it if all it does is silence the bitching and moaning.
the Welsh should have animosity towards the English
Do they? I've never noticed it myself.
What kind of rubbish life do you have if you spend all that time ranting and raving against your neighbours for past history. There a great people of all nationalities and also d*cks, find the good ones and avoid the bad ones.
The point was in response to point you raised of not understanding why the Welsh should have animosity towards the English as the battles were way back in history. I offer current reasons and you tell me that I should basically suck it up as you're unable to accept an English option.
So would you have been OK with this if a Welsh government had built these resevoirs and sold the water to the residents of Birmingham or Manchester or whereever?
It takes a special kind of paranoia to keep a tally of these things.
You're not doing your position or country any favours. Next you'll be teeling me how I should feel and react. #empathy
Should the English celebrate being English? Yes, but you don't start with St. George's day. Start with beer that is as good as and as varied as whisky is in Scotland. Start with Sheffield steel, or railways, or Brunel, or F1 engineering.
That's very kind of you, igm, to tell us what we should and shouldn't do. Good job we don't reciprocate - imagine how that would be perceived 😉
Which is telling - since the assyemtery in this kind of debate is great to behold. Patriotism in Wales and Scotlanf = arrogance etc in English. What a crock? That can only reflect how one party sees itself - hence the references earlier to chippiness.
All so unnecessary, all the home countries are and should be patriotic and proud of their culture and heritage. I have Welsh grandparents, born and bred largely in England, partially educated (joke) in Scotland and lived overseas. I like to celebrate the rich heritage of all of the home nations. Why ever not, there is lots to be proud of....
I was venue called upon to say the Selkirk grace (in my best accent) on Burns night.
Live and let live and celebrate the wonders of all the home nations.
Really? I'd be miffed but my miffedness would not have anything to do with what part of the country the water was going to.
So if the situation were reversed - that Wales was the dominant power and was destroying your English communities to serve its needs - you're telling us that this wouldn't be a factor in your annoyance?
I don't believe you.
So if the situation were reversed - that Wales was the dominant power and was destroying your English communities to serve its needs - you're telling us that this wouldn't be a factor in your annoyance?
He's already said that he wouldn't like it, [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/why-are-scottish-and-welsh-folk-so-patriotic/page/4#post-7465768 ]here.[/url] 😆
Always hard work explaining that to Americans, who seem to regard England and Britain as synonymous.
They are synonymous given the dictionary definition covers close association. Try telling them you live in Luxembourg if you really want a moronic argument (it's in Switzerland... no it's a country... so is Switzerland etc).
If I were forcibly evicted and my village destroyed, in order to provide water for a city in another country, I might feel a bit miffed..
It's also the same country.
I work in Wales with a fair few welsh people and I'm pretty sure they dont base any dislike of the english on the basis of the building of reservoirs. In my experience the issue which they are more pissed off about is the north wales coast being a dumping ground for all the "problem" residents of england. The vast majority of people don't really care as long as wales keeps its identity and its rich history is recognised(which in some ways is better than englands IMO). I'd go as far as to say that they more political ones I know hate the Cardiff government more as they believe that the north of the country is ignored. I really enjoy around the world cups (football and rugby) as there is a huge amount of good natured piss taking even though no one I know really cares who wins too much. I must say the guys from scotland are a bit different but they are mainly rangers supporters so that may be a reason.... 😉
which in some ways is better than englands IMO
Wait, we're in a competition for who has the best history? Surely them Iraqis and Egypians win that one?
I don't believe you.
As you wish.
i guess a reservoir is an example of the price to pay for being part of the U.K. if they get independence they can maybe sell the water to England? after all they might need the money if you believe what the ONS say:
Public Expenditure
HM Treasury publish a country and regional breakdown of UK public expenditure. Around 86% of this public expenditure is split by country and region (‘identifiable expenditure’). In 2012/13, the UK average identifiable spend per head was £8,788. Northern Ireland had the highest total identifiable public expenditure at £10,876 per head. This was followed by Scotland with £10,152 per head, and Wales at £9,709. England was the only country below the UK average with £8,529 per head. The remaining 14% of non-identifiable expenditure is deemed to be incurred on behalf of the UK as a whole5.
Taxation - Household
In 2009/10 to 2011/12, the annual average direct tax (such as income tax and National Insurance) paid by all UK households was £7,360 per household. By country, Scotland paid £7,056 per household, Northern Ireland paid £5,647 and Wales paid £5,564.
source: [url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/compendiums/compendium-of-uk-statistics/economy/index.html ]http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/compendiums/compendium-of-uk-statistics/economy/index.html[/url]
I still need to be at the Millenium Stadium to hear LOMF sung before a match v England. The extra passion is wonderful to experience on the TV and most be spine tingling in the flesh. Great anthem.
If only, the Scots could get rid of their turgid flower song that should remain left in the post match showers. As for SLSC that should be banned forever! Although was an amusing wind up during the RWC at Cardiff. Beyond that, nooooooo....
i guess a reservoir is an example of the price to pay for being part of the U.K.
We never asked to be!
If you want the same situation without the mugging, riding in the pyrenees, a group of us are sitting by the road. A little old lady walks past and goes "huh, Jews". I go "Non mademoiselle, Palestinians", she smiles and laughs, "Ahhhh, Palestinians, pardon!".
On Holocaust Memorial Day, that's a rather crass comparison, isn't it?
Scots were at the heart of the Empire, serving in great numbers in the military - but you have to ask yourself why that's the case. Are Scots naturally more violent? Or was it that once Highland culture in particular was crushed after 1745, there wasn't much else for young men to do? It's classic behaviour for all empires to recruit their cannon fodder from the peoples they've crushed - General Wolfe said of the Highland soldiers that it was "no great mischief if they fall".
We never asked to be!
Yet ironically Wales was brought into the union to make them EQUAL to England as a subject to the king. Unless you're bitching about the conquest around 800 years ago in which case, arguing the causes and results of that are probably beyond an MTB forum but probably boils down to "Welsh king provoked English king which resulted in a fight he couldn't win"
We never asked to be!
We need a "scrap the union" campaign to gather momentum. It would get huge support from every country/province within.
What, in favour of insularity and xenophobia??
No wonder Trump and his ilk seem to have a following....
We need a "scrap the union" campaign to gather momentum. It would get huge support from every country/province within.
i wish this would happen, never will though 😐
It's a reference to annexing Wales around 500 years ago. It was probably for our own good, so best not complain, eh? 😆
What, in favour of insularity and xenophobia??
Oh, do hush now.
What, in favour of insularity and xenophobia??
Yet ironically it's insularity and xenophobia that may well pull the UK out of Europe, and lead to the breakup of the UK.
We never asked to be!
Who is we? There wasn't ever a 'we'.
Yet ironically it's insularity and xenophobia that may well pull the UK out of Europe, and lead to the breakup of the UK.
And ever so nearly did in 2014.
And ever so nearly did in 2014.
Scotland is much more outward-looking than the UK as a whole - 2014 was about that, not insularity and xenophobia, completely the opposite.
Scotland is much more outward-looking than the UK as a whole
What [i]are[/i] you waffling about? How do you know that, whatever gave you that idea?
Jeez, where does the BS stop!?!?
So if england wanted to be indy = xenophobia
If some people in the Uk wanted a divorce from teh EU = xenophobia
Scotland want indy = openmindedness
Bollocks.
From the Auld Alliance to today's arguments about refugees, Scotland has been more interested in other peoples and countries - kinda helps also that so many Scots emigrated.
I'm just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia, when it's more about getting away from our increasingly insular and xenophobic neighbour.
All these tales of people treating you differently for not being English, doesn't that make them xenophobic or is that OK if its just against the English?
I have always considered myself English rather than British but its not something that I think defines me, just somewhere where I was born.
One thing I have always wanted to know though, does every Scottish pub have a local called Tommy who is an expert on the national team and gets rather feisty after a few ales, like every pub in England seems to have a 'jock' character?
Who is we? There wasn't ever a 'we'.
That'd be the Welsh collective that you mentioned [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/why-are-scottish-and-welsh-folk-so-patriotic/page/2#post-7464915 ]here[/url].
EDIT:
All these tales of people treating you differently for not being English, doesn't that make them xenophobic or is that OK if its just against the English?
Now we've gone from disdain to xenophobia! That's as bad, if not worse, as confusing patriotism with nationalism.
I'm just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia
And I'm demonstrating that anyone wanting a "no" to EU is not xenophobic, no more so than the scots wanting independence (or any english people who might want same).
Your scost being more openminded than anyone else stuff is still bollocks BTW.
gordimhor - Member
...Scots have a lot to take responsibility for such as their part in the slave trade...
Which part?
The part where a few establishment figures made a fortune, or the part where far more Scots (mainly Highlanders) were sold as slaves by the landowners? Not to mention those shipped over to the West Indies by Cromwell.
Surely them Iraqis and Egypians win that one?
Your history teaching is out of date - modern archaeology suggests that Britian first produced Bronze... you know there may be an epoch named after it 😀
Indeed Ben I hope the xenophobes don't take control of the EU referendum
Love the openmindidness idea though 😉 no need to ask for the link !!!
Actually Ben, you may have a point. Look at the ownership of whisky and NS Oil. Good old Johnny Foreigner and his deep pockets, eh?. Meanwhile the rest of us are moaning about the French owning our utilities. I stand corrected 😉
atlaz - Member
Wait, we're in a competition for who has the best history? Surely them Iraqis and Egypians win that one?
Nah, the Orcadians IMO.
So if the situation were reversed - that Wales was the dominant power and was destroying your English communities to serve its needs - you're telling us that this wouldn't be a factor in your annoyance?I don't believe you.
On another level, are the people of Staunton Harrold miffed that their farms were flooded to supply water to Leicester? I've no idea, I suspect most of them are dead now? But I doubt they were miffed that the water wasn't personally for them, and I doubt they were miffed enough to care that other people cared enough about it that they harbored a grudge against those benefiting from it.
Which part?The part where a few establishment figures made a fortune, or the part where far more Scots were sold as slaves?
That'd pretty much apply to any country you pick between Scotland and west Africa.
Indeed Ben I hope the xenophobes don't take control of the EU referendum
Looking at who's leading the In and Out campaigns, I'm in the unusual position of wanting both sides to lose 😉
It was my Welsh friends at college that taught me to
a) be English and not British
b) be proud of being English
As we were just moving into the era when English rugby dominated it was not a bad time (by the end of college) to be taught it 😀
Nationalism, patriotism. Its a diversion.
Blaming the English for reservoirs in Wales, But which members of the "English" should you be referring to? Whoever they were, they were going to do what they did regardless of whether it was in Wales, Scotland, England, Ireland, or further afield.
Scots were at the heart of the Empire, serving in great numbers in the military - but you have to ask yourself why that's the case. Are Scots naturally more violent? Or was it that once Highland culture in particular was crushed after 1745, there wasn't much else for young men to do?
Its about survival. You went where the money was, where a better future could have been.
It's classic behaviour for all empires to recruit their cannon fodder from the peoples they've crushed
It is, including from its own nation. The English, Welsh, Scots, Irish all went off and did the bidding of its empire, just as the English, Welsh, Scots, and Irish running the show demanded it.
The landowners, the industrialists, business leaders, the politicians, royalty etc.
This belief in nationalism. Its a game, currently being played by the likes of Trump and Putin.
The simple fact is while we further down the food chain engage in petty nationalism/patriotism, those higher up, The landowners, the industrialists, business leaders, the politicians, royalty etc, have always been engaged in the class game.
So you should really be asking yourself who is to blame, not what nationality is to blame.
Nationalism, patriotism. Is a diversion. On this island it has always been about class.
We never asked to be!
Well in that case don’t blame the modern English.
Blame your distance ancestors from the 11 and 12th centuries and their economy based on pastoralism supplemented by inter clan cattle raiding.
I’ve they’d stuck their side of Offa’s Dyke all well and good. But if you are going to start interfering with the settled pastoral/arable economies of your big powerful Norman neighbours, you are going to start pissing them off.
Do you think the Norman’s really wanted to conquer Wales? It was difficult and expensive and didn’t generate any income.
They would much rather have been left alone to oppress the English and carve out mini kingdoms along the Welsh Marches.
Or was it that once Highland culture in particular was crushed after 1745
And as for Scots whinging about being oppressed. I think you’ll find that 500/600 years ago they were quite capable of doing a bit of oppression of their Southern neighbours. And if it weren’t for various Scottish interferences we wouldn’t have had a Civil war that as a percentage of population probably resulted in more English deaths than any other war in history.
1745 and the death of Highland cultue? Blame a Scottish dynasty and their repeated attempt to seize the crown of a country that no longer wanted them. If it hadn’t been for Bonny Prince ****ing Charlie the Highland Scots would have been fine.
But I won’t use the mistakes of people who lived by other rules in other eras to judge folk today.
Apart for the Germans…. Obviously.
On another level, are the people of Staunton Harrold miffed that their farms were flooded to supply water to Leicester? I've no idea, I suspect most of them are dead now? But I doubt they were miffed that the water wasn't personally for them, and I doubt they were miffed enough to care that other people cared enough about it that they harbored a grudge against those benefiting from it.
Did Leicester invade Staunton Harrold, treat it less favourably for several centuries, ban its language and refuse to acknowledge its culture and history?
It's really not at all difficult to see why the Welsh might not be entirely happy with their treatment, unless you decide you don't want to.
The bitterness is astounding. Is it something in the water?
So you should really be asking yourself who is to blame, not what nationality is to blame.Nationalism, patriotism. Is a diversion. On this island it has always been about class.
Class and nationality can't be easily separated. The British Empire brought with it a set of ideas about soceity, money and markets.
In Wales, one of the arguments from London for removing Welsh from schooling was because it was seen as a language of emotion - not one for trade and business. So it was best removed.
There was also a disdain for Welsh culture, it was viewed as nice but of no real value. Instead sport was promoted because it helped to breed those competitive qualities needed for the marketplace.
These ideas have helped to mould modern day Wales.
Obviously I recognise it as a country in a strictly factual sense, but I would never identify as British unless 'Scottish' wasn't an option, i.e. on customs declarations/passport forms etc.
You miss my point.
We are all taking part in a shared activity that groups us together mainly as *Brits*. Most of what we do is done as Brits. In other words, we watch the same TV, listen to the same music on the radio, read the same books, *mostly* talk about the same issues and so on.
Language is a big part of this - the language we all share. But there are plenty of other shared cultural and social experiences. This is why the UK is not just a political boundary.