[Closed] Why are hybrid / electric cars designed so over-styled?

You're really not getting my point here.

The Cd depends on more than just the shape.

As said above. Not really no.

One thing that certainly has a massively high drag coefficient... trying to get you to admit you may have been wrong 🙄

So I guess you like to drive a car that is effectively beige, with zero character?

Nope. I just don't like swoops and edges for the sake of it that jar with a smooth shape. Adding edges and silly shapes all other the place to me makes it over styled.

Something along the lines of a Porsche 550 is the sort of design I appreciate. Don't think they made a hybrid version though.

Them overstyled leccy cars look great parked outside of this place in Texas.

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Just don't upset any parking robots or comply in anything more than 20 seconds.

Are Toyota not under pressure to make the Prius continue to look like the Prius. (Futuristic and Aero looking even though it might not be as aero as the look suggests.)

Sort of. The first one was basically a Yaris with a boot, so that doesn't count and was pretty much a test bed for the drive train. The MkII was the first real one and that was released as a brand new car so it could have brand new styling and didn't need any sort of design continuity. Most cars that keep their name badge try to keep some design features from one iteration to the next.

Technically the Cd *only* depends on the shape of the entire car.

Ok, ok - how about 'profile' instead of shape?

Things like ride height, skirts, baffles, windscreen wipers, bobbly panels underneath etc etc all reduce drag, which was my point.

Way back when the Prious looked futuristic and distinctive, today it looks dated and distinctive.

First it looked weird (mk2) then it looked ok (mk3) now it looks absolutely hideous (mk4). Seriously - I like the cars and I might buy one but I'd have to squint as I walked up to it.

Latest battery manufacturer figures show negligible loss in performance (range/power) over 10 years. About 5%. Give or take, depending on a few other things as well. Early hybrids you'd be looking at ~35% losses after 5 years.

Got any references for that? As a genuine interest thing. I work with batteries.

AFAIK the only way to guarantee a 10 year life is a massive over-spec for day 1, which then works out to on-spec, by the time you've accounted 10 years of capacity loss.

Something that only dropped 5% capacity after 10 years would be something else.

Not really. The actual electrical power bit of the battery can be scaled up quite a lot without actually changing the size of the casing/electronics significantly. Only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the battery is actually cells. Or directly related to the number of cells.

Again, I'd love to see some referencing for this. You're basically saying its possible to wind up the capacity without making the battery any bigger. Which is another way of saying its far too big in the first place. Or perhaps I misunderstand.

[quote="mrmonkfinger"]Got any references for that? As a genuine interest thing. I work with batteries.Fraid not.

You're basically saying its possible to wind up the capacity without making the battery any bigger. Which is another way of saying its far too big in the first place. Or perhaps I misunderstand.

Meeting the technical boys from a few EV manufacturers on Thursday.

Anything you want me to tell them?
Any tips or things they've got wrong?

I want igm's job.

Nope. I just don't like swoops and edges for the sake of it that jar with a smooth shape. Adding edges and silly shapes all other the place to me makes it over styled.

So did the op just start a thread with a completely incorrect argument/statement, realise his mistake and then not bother to reply?

@igm

The technical boys are not the problem. They have done wonders. But they are not in charge of the world unfortunately and so we have tbe current situation where the last 20 years has been wasted, awsome electric BMW cars have been crushed after 2 years, Mercedes deliberately hobble one of the best EVs out there, Toyota have been led up a hydrogen cul de sac...you really couldnt make it up. If it wasnt for Tesla we would be even further along the road in the land of make believe. Incredible that paypal man was such a visionary and that he managed to sneak under the wire..

Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe were designed to both look like "normal" cars and be accepted as such. The Leaf was proposed with a much more radical exterior design that the electric powertrain allows ( more cab foreword monovolume) but as it was Nissans first full EV they took a conscious decision to make it more conservative and not scare off potential customers or risk not being taken seriously.

Prius is now in its fourth generation and is designed as pretty much a standalone EV brand within Toyota so the current one looks way more radical than the previous ones. To be honest I think it's a little bit out of control with the from language but it's all relative....Prius is a statement of Eco cried that a focus or golf is not so Toyota can get away with doing somthing a big Moore off the wall design wise... Prius Prime ( it's going to be sold as a Prius sport or high power or somthing in the Uk) looks a lot better with a new front bumper/hood design that seems to fix a few of the visual issues the current Prius has.

EV's and hybrids now are becoming much more the norm but with a few notable exceptions (Prius and BMWi3 for example) most are still trying to blend in with the rest of vehicles out there. I saw the new Hyndai hybrid yesterday and visually it's frankly dull as ditchwater.

To be honest a lot of the issues with car design is that the buyers tend to be quite conservative ( expensive purchase and most don't want to buy somthing that goes out of fashion quickly) and the companies that build the cars even more so (big cash and time investment means they veer towards more conservative approaches....occasionally it's different when everyone just "gets" the design but that's rare...). Having sat in on some customer clinics where we showcased new car designs you tend to listen to the responses from some members of the public and die a little inside: some people get a new groundbreaking design right from the start, some need a lot of time to come round to something new, some just want something that doesn't shout at all and is the automotive equivalent of magnolia paint...it's also quite hard to make a statement of your individuality when you are driving around in the same thing as 100,000 other people!

as it was Nissans first full EV they took a conscious decision to make it more conservative and not scare off potential customers or risk not being taken seriously.

Yes. Clever really - it's not based on any other car so you can recognise it as a Leaf EV, but it still looks normal.

Really?
To my mind they are just as bland and boring as virtually any other car out there. You can't tell a BMW from a Hyundai or an Audi from a Nissan nowadays. The closest we get to something even vaguely different is something French.

You can't tell a BMW from a Hyundai or an Audi from a Nissan nowadays

Of course you can. I have no idea why you think they are the same. Normal everyday cars were prety samey when I was a kid; I'd go so far as to say cars are MORE diverse now.

Personally, i think modern cars are better styled than they have ever been! Ok, the particular styling may not be to one persons personal taste, but at least the designers have made a effort. Lets face it, not that long ago a typical small passenger car looked like this:

[img] http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/pjpeg/e5415cfcb5e3e0cc830c2a18052a1bf93980810.pjpg [/img]

Terrible and with so little attention paid to the styling and detailing you wonder why they didn't just make it look like a square box!

Also, surfacing, as opposed to styling has come on in leaps and bounds since 3d surfacing CAD has become available. Previously, cars where largely single curvature flat (ish) panels, where the reflection of light off them was frankly awful too.

It's also worth noting that a passenger car is a compromise, a massive, massive compromise. Today, we can easily make a passenger car with half the drag of a current Prius say. But it'd be a terrible car! Uncomfortable, cramped, difficult to carry anything in it, with poor access, terrible sight lines and a liability in an accident, and you'd never be able to reverse park it anywhere!

The reason things like the Prius have been successful is because they are a good compromise. Low enough drag, but also practical enough to be used as a car by the average man or woman in the street.....

Molgrips, you're wrong because Cd is including all the little sticky out bits and the underneath.

Nealglover, you're wrong because Cd is irrelavent in the real world. It's CdA that matters, if toyota made the prius as small as they could make a 4 seater with engine, motors and batteries then it can have the optimum CdA despite an average Cd, thus it could be more aerodynamically efficient.

IIRC the costin amigo has (or held for a very long time) both the lowest Cd and CdA (because it was so low tp the ground) And has a Kamm tail.

After all my musings and Diesel engines ownership, I think I've narrowed it down to two cars, both hybrids, and I've already owned a Pious so not concerned about reliability and such.. Recently I had one of these for two days as a test, and whilst it looks like it's been overstyled by a 14yr old boy, it's nice in the flesh, not speedy at all, quiet and comfortable and yet still has a bit of a distinctive look about it. Colour ? Hmmm, torn between black or white..

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I've recently started working at a place where we have several electric/hybrid pool cars.

The Leafs (not leaves) are surprisingly good fun to drive. Really quick off the lights and handle pretty well. This is all despite my initial reservations about the aero-frog styling. A couple of lads at work have now bought 2nd hand ones for their short commutes to work (and they charge them at work as well).
Range drops considerably with speed, reduced temperature and number of occupants - quite scary how fast the battery will drop on a cold day with a full car on the motorway, but it's not designed for that and it fully charges in 30min at the services.

The Prius is a horrible thing to drive. And passengers tend to get motion sickness in the back.

We've got a van as well and the lads to seen to rate it but I haven't tried it myself.

For my/our next car I'd like a Renault Zoe to replace the Aygo. Then to replace our main car I'd like either a Tesla model 3 or whatever competition Volvo or whoever can come up with in about 2019/20

Nealglover, you're wrong because Cd is irrelavent in the real world.

I didn't say Cd was relevant.

I was simply responding to the claim that the Prius was given its "shape" because it was the most aerodynamic "shape" possible for a four seater car.

It's CdA that matters, if toyota made the prius as small as they could make a 4 seater with engine, motors and batteries then it can have the optimum CdA despite an average Cd, thus it could be more aerodynamically efficient

You seem to be ignoring the need to fit stuff in the car, like motor, batteries, people, seats...

I have another 2hrs of building leaf engines in a clean room with a broken fan, wearing gloves, overcoat, earplugs, glasses and a bump cap........... I hate electric cars!!