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Universal basic income and similar ideas work totally differently to what you are talking about. Universal being the key. Enough to keep people out of poverty. Recouped by a rejig of taxation for those earning. Its great benefits are the universality - no one falls thru gaps and also simplicity and thus administrative costs
my own experiences of government schemes for people not working. ET,YTS etc. All were saying pretty much the same thing. Telling people they’ll supply them work, but the reality of it was you worked 40 hours for ET(£10 extra) or YTS(£20 extra) on to of basic benefits. I’m really bias against any party promising it because i know from experience theres always a catch.
As someone who is on benefits, the parties arent addressing me or anyone in that position, but working people and in the end those working people will happily accept whatever is proposed against us benefit scroungers.
I’d go do some proper investigations because greens are very much addressing you (and you are probably right most of the others are not). The whole idea of universal credit is the antithesis of what you describe - no work required in return: it works on the basis that there is enough wealth for everyone to be “OK” if they want or need to be. No qualifying criteria for benefits, no sanctions for missing a (probably pointless) meeting when your bus didn’t turn up; no benefits stigma. Every adult (including those in work) gets enough to survive on - I’ve seen the level of state pension suggested as an example so ~ £9k pa. People who choose to work get this too, but end up paying more tax. People who can’t work or choose not to work have at least the protection of benefits with no fear that if they try to get a job they loose the basic income. From your side of the equation it should look like a great idea; I can’t believe you are dismissing it and spreading falsehoods about it because parties 30 years ago who are the social and economic opposite of the greens screwed you over. The issues with it are not the ones you cite - they are affordability, potential for high inflation, and getting the lucky high earners to pay sufficient tax to offset it.
Let's face it, the general public would never back UBI. They have a hard enough time accepting that people need benefits and label them as scroungers (until they need benefits and then scream they are too low to possibly live on).
Combined with the ignorance around it as demonstrated above it hasn't got a chance.
Have any countries (obviously more progressive than UK) every come close to implementing it?
A quick Google suggests Mongolia and Islamic Republic of Iran had pilots but no country has fully implemented it.
Have any countries (obviously more progressive than UK) every come close to implementing it?
Alaska? The Permanent Fund
Was in bakers this morning and a slightly older lady was going on about not voting as she didn't want independence. Someone suggested Labour or Tories for her - she turned her nose up at the Tories. She didn't want SNP in as all the money they get is being spent on independence and she works for the NHS and they get nothing. Someone pointed out that SNP got 4% pay rise for NHS workers to which she agreed and then claimed half of that 4% was syphoned off to pay for independence so they got nothing.
I'm kind of glad I heard it as it proves to me that I've a bit more of an interest and understanding than some (although still very little), but likewise it is worrying that people have these thoughts when the facts don't match up to them...it is concerning when they have heard this from and then got it in their head that it is true.
Anyway, voting is on for tomorrow so hopefully everyone will turn out and vote, that way when it does all go pear-shaped they can all complain rightly that they didn't vote for this, rather than not voting at all.
Sturgeon was going on about UBI at beginning of pandemic.
Seems like it's in their manifesto
Alaska? The Permanent Fund
Seems like more of a "bonus" from oil profits and has paid out an average of approximately $1,600 annually per resident so not going to cut it.
Interesting times for Scotland. I have no vote as no longer live there but still follow the independence campaign though not closely I admit. For the yes voters do you think Scotland can have its own independent currency and compete financially on a world stage. I’ve seen or heard very little on how it’s all going to be paid for but maybe that’s just not sexy enough for the news or I missed it. I’ve got family in Glasgow still who are split 50/50 on leave or stay though it’s all getting a bit brexittoxic but that’s difficult descisions for you.
; I can’t believe you are dismissing it and spreading falsehoods about it because parties 30 years ago
Those are just the examples that affected me. Im sure if you looked into it the same system was replaced by something else under a different name over the past 30 or so years.
Some believe that community service should be a requirement for receiving UBI. So you receive a basic income, but you have to work for it. HOW is that any different to any other government work scheme. It appears to be the same thing rolled out time and again under a different title.
And UBI has its many criticisms,one of them being the staggering cost £28 billion it is thought would cost the UK. Theres also criticism that it will remove the will to work, if you're going to get an income anyway. I expect the knock on from that is less working, less taxable income, as we've seen during this pandemic which nobody can deny has caused a great deficit.
So spreading falsehoods 😕 Hardly. Maybe if I had a soapbox in the town square.. but you asked me I answered from the perspective of my experience.
If you've a problem with the cost of UBI, best you don't hear about Track & Trace.
The difference with UBI being that the cost is covered by increased taxes, i.e. if I earn £60K after tax today then I would get £50K after tax + £10K UBI.
Whether people would be less willing to work, who knows but most people would probably rather have £25K than £10K to live on.
£28 billion isn’t a big number on this sort of scale in terms of number of recipients. State pension is somewhere in the region of £100bn
Does anyone have any reasonable estimates of actual cost factoring in any saving by other existing benefits being cut?
And from what I understand, by definition, if you make someone work for UBI it’s not UBI?
To the "how will you pay for it?" brigade - pick up an atlas. There are many countries with five million (or fewer) people and some/many/most of them are doing OK.
If I was Queen of Scotland I would devolve powers gradually over time, a process which has already started in case you haven't noticed - in spite of attempts by UKG to grab some back.
Sorry, just trying to be pragmatic. Which you need experience of, not what might be in an ideal setting. Oops, we over estimated....
£10K UBI.
£200 a week 😕 Is that the vote winning figure thats being banded about ?
For the yes voters do you think Scotland can have its own independent currency and compete financially on a world stage.
For me the euro is the only obvious answer. An independent currency is not needed
Pound during transition - remember scotland owns 9% of it!
For me the euro is the only obvious answer
What's the appetite for it in Scotland, how would it go down with folk? Genuinely ignorant here, so excuse the daft question, but if you suggested the Euro in England...well, doesn't need to be said, does it?
£200 a week 😕 Is that the vote winning figure thats being banded about ?
That was an example, notice how it was such a round figure 🙂
Not sure it is vote winning, it is just a better system than current benefits systems and you would be grateful for it if you ever lost your job and already had it rather than go through the pain and delay of UC.
What’s the appetite for it in Scotland, how would it go down with folk? Genuinely ignorant here, so excuse the daft question, but if you suggested the Euro in England…well, doesn’t need to be said, does it?
I suspect not much different up here hence its not mentioned.
@Poly
I see the latest is the Kickstart scheme. Paying at the minimum wage for a maximum of 6 months.
The actual Apprentice rate is £4.30.(data 2020)
Well strike me down if thats not a similar scheme to all the rest. Minimum wages for a 40 hour week. Though given they're going to be classed as "Apprentices" then that qualifies them for the lowest rate in any job. Why is that do you think 😕
And clearly an apprenticeship lasts longer than 6 months doesnt it ?. Usually 3-4 years. Odd they call it an apprenticeship then.
.
Except for the fact that puts them on the lowest minimum.
Dont want my cynicism to rub off on anyone here 😆
Not sure it is vote winning,
I think it is and i think that very clever. We know many young people dont actually vote, and we know 16,17 yr olds are generally a poor lot. Especially those in low income families.
Maybe we should have New Model Army playing in the background 😆
Notice the recent rumblings about lowering the voting age to 16. Seems to tie in quite nicely.
I suspect not much different up here hence its not mentioned.
Ooof, going to be a hard sell when it comes to it!
They must be distant rumblings all the way from 2013.
Notice the recent rumblings about lowering the voting age to 16. Seems to tie in quite nicely
The voting age is sixteen
16 Scotland,Wales(16 years old in Scottish Parliament and local elections (and other elections when you're 18). 18 England.
UBI is a central government initiative.
And, certainly in Scotland, many of the drug-related deaths are in people who became addicted before the SNP were in power,
Seriously. Nothing to do with the SNP because they have only been in power 14 years?
Even if you'd said you weren't clear enough about voting age, or admitted you were wrong, you'd come out of it better than that response.
Not defending any political party but we have a very serious ageing drug user problem particularly for heroin.
A huge number of Scots addicted to heroin are the same people who started using decades ago.
but we have a very serious ageing drug user problem particularly for heroin.
I hope that isnt referring to me. I gave it all up and even weed too. About 4 friends and other aquaintences overdosed and that was that. In those melancholy moments you dwell on friends from the past, the good times pre drugs through to the bad and worse times.Really hits home what there is to lose.
For me the euro is the only obvious answer. An independent currency is not needed
Pound during transition – remember scotland owns 9% of it!
9% of what? Reserves and debt? Printing presses? Threadneedle St? Mark Carney's pension?
What's the compatibility of UBI for iS paid in rUK pounds with the fiscal requirements of membership of the EU and a switch to the Euro?
Once iS joins the EU will all residents be eligible for UBI including temporary EU residents exercising their free movement rights?
Once iS joins the EU will all residents be eligible for UBI including temporary EU residents exercising their free movement rights?
Depends how you choose to implement benefits entitlement, contrary to belief there is no compulsion to give benefits to anyone who just rocks up on day one.
I hope that isnt referring to me.
Of course it wasn't.
UBI is a central government initiative.
According to reserved powers, yes. But that doesn't stop other parties having it as a manifesto commitment. If we actually got control of benefits under devolution or independence we could implement it.
I see the latest is the Kickstart scheme. Paying at the minimum wage for a maximum of 6 months
UK Gov, what's your point? It's nothing to do with UBI and you've been told that enough times now.
Plenty of places with less than 5 million and an ok economy. I don't need an atlas as I've lived in a few of them thanks.
Have the EU stated Scotland can join I thought it was stated you go through the lengthy application process and see what happens. If independence is gained surely Scotland would be expected to leave stirling quite quickly as your independent.
Wait, is Stirling to be a seperate city state?
Is it near Tillicoutry?
No I don't think it is, but I do believe it is near to Tillicoultry.
Go through the wrong but and Tillicoultry seems like a different planet let alone near another country
I see the latest is the Kickstart scheme. Paying at the minimum wage for a maximum of 6 months
Not UBI
Everyone voted then? All good talking about all this, but if you don't vote, it doesn't count (or it counts for the bad stuff that we already have (we tend to complain about the bad suff and rarely comment on the good stuff, so suspect there is good stuff in place as well - but we tend to vote to change the bad stuff)).
I see the latest is the Kickstart scheme. Paying at the minimum wage for a maximum of 6 months
Not UBI
deep sigh...
Yes yes I know, but the principle for it in the unemployed will amount to the same thing, as it has done an a regular basis for the last 40 years.
Lets be honest, do yo think the government is suddenly going to change and be all nicey nice ?. 'Oh here's free money for you in poverty and low incomes and unemployed. Work ?? naw you need not'
Theyre looking for productivity in the labour market and population, not sit on your 4r5e.
not voted yet but will later.
I'm in the Borders, so SNP 1 & 2 for me.
Anyone who votes Labour, Tory or the other Unionist parties is really voting for more Tory Sleaze & Corruption IMO.
Once iS joins the EU will all residents be eligible for UBI including temporary EU residents exercising their free movement rights?
I suspect there would be more concern about mass migration of 55/60 year olds from England using it as an early retirement plan! Clearly whilst the idea is that there are no eligibility criteria, there would need to be some way to avoid it being exploited.
Seriously. Nothing to do with the SNP because they have only been in power 14 years?
Of course, its not nothing to do with SNP - but the opposition parties getting upset about it are the ones who set Scotland off on this course! I haven't heard any of them explain what they would actually do about it: the Conservative Manifesto says they would ask a taskforce to publish a review, and prioritise abstinence-based programmes. And efforts must be stepped up to prevent use in prisons. The labour one, says they support the (SNP) policy that WM blocked on safe consumption rooms. Both seem to believe drug use is an "education" and "rehab" issue. It shows a lack of insight on why people get involved in serious drug use: poverty, abuse, lack of aspiration, mental health, etc are really the issues.
Postal ballot went in about 3 weeks ago.
SNP and Green on the list. In Glasgow an SNP list vote is probably wasted and I've actually quite a lot of time for what the Greens stand for.
I'll vote after work, SNP candidate vote, and potentially Alba on the list, simply out of a bit of mad curiosity. 🙂
I'm not going to dissect the rest of your trolling because in the absence of UBI I have the inconvenience of having to do a paid job today and you'll just change your position to suit the argument... but these can't go ignored:
Some believe that community service should be a requirement for receiving UBI. So you receive a basic income, but you have to work for it.
Some people believe we should reinstate hanging - but that's not the Green Party policy either!
And UBI has its many criticisms,one of them being the staggering cost £28 billion it is thought would cost the UK.
That would be a bargain - given our welfare spend is about 10x that (pre-covid)... I highlighted earlier that the economics were where this issue lies. The reality is nobody knows what the net effect would be - more people working part-time - active happier people with less health burden? more people with cash to spend = economic growth? fewer people trapped in benefits where its barely worth working because the benefits get cut? more grandparents retiring earlier to help with child care helping parents work and freeing up jobs occupied by 60 somethings waiting for pension day? etc...
Theres also criticism that it will remove the will to work, if you’re going to get an income anyway. I expect the knock on from that is less working, less taxable income, as we’ve seen during this pandemic which nobody can deny has caused a great deficit.
the evidence from trials in Finland and Netherlands (I think - I might have wrong places) is that actually that effect is not seen. Work will still need done - so it just shifts the market dynamic so that people may expect to be paid more for it. The fine balance is getting the payment level right so that those who need it to survive are OK, but those who want luxury are motivated to work. Its not even about setting the UBI level just right, Its about the entire taxation model that needs changing to sit alongside it too. Given that higher earners in Scotland don't seem to create much fuss about paying higher tax than the rest of the UK, perhaps the opposition would not be as widespread as you think. The green's rethink of taxation is far-reaching - and includes the abolition of council tax and introduction of a wealth tax. That should be a vote winner for your average Scot. Failing to reform council tax (and therefore council funding) is probably my biggest criticism of the SNP - I don't know why they ditched it as it used to be a policy - but I suspect they will blame WM for not being willing to adapt council tax relief for those on benefits to a new system!