[Closed] Who hikes without paper maps?

I will carry a paper map and a compass almost always, partly because I started hillwalking before GPS was available and it is an ingrained habit but mostly because I like to have one to look at at food stops etc. The times I don’t have any mapping are usually local walks or short low level walks I have done numbers of times before. I do have a gps with 1:25k loaded for most of the areas that I walk and 1:50k for the whole UK.
I still tend to route plan on paper maps, again habit I guess.

This thread reminds me of when Mrs dB and I were discussing our first trip to keilder over the phone, she was on her laptop and I grabbed one of my dads maps except it was old enough not to have Keilder Lake on it 😬 which lead to a fair amount of confusion.

Still prefer a paper map btw.

Our local mountain rescue pull lost people out every week, they invariably have a phone on them to ring for help but still don’t know where the hell they are. Even if you do it’s easy to take a straight line off a cliff in poor visibility if your device thinks it’s the quickest route back to your car.

This is a competence thing rather than a device thing though.

This is a competence thing rather than a device thing though.

Yep. If they had a paper map they'd still be lost. At least with a phone the mrt can probably get a location for them

This is a competence thing rather than a device thing though.

Exactly. Seems that's really the main gripe on this thread. There's the reliability point which is answered by having backup and countered by maps not being indestructible either, and then there's this - "incompetent people use them and get lost"

I'm pretty sure incompetent people have been getting lost just fine for thousands of years before GPS units came along. With paper maps and without them.

A competent map reader and navigator does not become incompetent by picking up a GPS unit

An incompetent GPS user does not become a competent navigator by having a map.

and maybe, just maybe, a good navigator might not like GPS units because they're not a competent GPS user...

I'm increasingly using digital maps. I take a phone and my 'map phone' so that I don't run battery down in case I need it in emergency.

I do skip paper maps in summer on home turf/places I kind of know.

I do have concerns about digital maps having greater potential to fail when they are most needed - but I'm also someone who has watched two maps blow away out of hands on Cairngorm in near white out - nothing is infallible. You just have to be aware of strengths and weaknesses of what tools you use.

But the majority of time I have a paper map. I've a good few proper OS maps and print off from OS single A4 sheets. All in stylish map case 😁

All in stylish map case

Ever had a 100mph gust grab at your map case and pull you off a cliff??!?!? Careful now.

Maps are great in all shapes and forms. I’ll nearly always carry a paper copy when somewhere I don’t know, with an A4 print out for quick ref. But will usually have some kind of GPS device too.

Are there some actual real statistics on how much of a problem this is from the various mountain rescue teams around the UK (and in other countries) ?

If they are reporting having to go out and rescue people who got lost after their phone went dead, then I'm going to start bringing a paper map.

If on the other hand they're not, then I will carry on taking just a phone and GPS.

Are there some actual real statistics on how much of a problem this is from the various mountain rescue teams around the UK (and in other countries) ?

This seems like a preparedness thing, rather than a stats thing.

If you've taken equal precautions, I reckon the chances of needing mountain rescue won't be far different. The problem with stats is that one group is likely to be less prepared - that's not a fault of the technology.

On competence with GPS users. I think there is a tendency to believe GPS is infallible and thus people rely too much on them so if it fails for whatever reason then they are less likely to have skills to deal with the failure. We see this with car and lorry drivers blindly following GPS down roads that they cannot pass thru

I have looked into errors a lot in the medical world. Its almost always not one error but a series of small errors that lead to a major mistake. The more points at which an error can be made the more likely it is one will be made.

Its a rapidly developing field and I have changed my views in recent years. I used to be a paper map with electronic backup. I am now electronic map with paper backup mainly.

Are there some actual real statistics on how much of a problem this is from the various mountain rescue teams around the UK (and in other countries) ?

If they are reporting having to go out and rescue people who got lost after their phone went dead, then I’m going to start bringing a paper map.

I don't have stats, they might not exist but my feeling is that incidents where competent individuals had to be rescued due to failure of navigation technology or where that was a contributing factor are going to be very rare.

I don't carry paper maps for two reasons.
1. I go mainly on the Berkshire Ridgeway and the area around Weymouth and S.Dorset. Not the most gnarr bit of the world.
2. My only paper maps are set of motorist maps I bought in a random pub out Princes Risborough way that was selling off books and stuff for a local charity. I have about 80% of the UK covered at a reasonable scale with a surprising amount of terrain information on there.
The maps are all from the 30s/40s however so a lot of guessing would be involved. I only bought them to frame and flog on ebay. Must do that, it's only been 20years...

I navigate using viewranger and have 1:25k topo maps on my backup GPS.

I think most of the "must have a paper map" arguments are targetted at people with one electronic device - dead battery (they die quicker in the cold), dropped device with broken screen or getting soaked, would leave the typical smartphone user stuck. I think there may also be a message there about being able to navigate properly rather than follow a dot on a screen. If you have two devices + compass and the skills to navigate then its probably less essential.

Personally however I much prefer a paper map (I prefer a harvey's map in fact). Have used real maps or printed extracts. For really long trips I've printed maps at my own scale and even mixed scales for levels of complexity. Its amazing what you can fit on a double sided A3 sheet if you try!

It can get blown away.
It can get too wet to be useful.
It can be out of date.

those issues can all be true of an electronic map too! Ok blown away less likely - but dropped is not.

I wouldn’t go anywhere remote without a paper backup of some sort, (and a compass!)
But if somewhere familiar I’ll rely on my phone with os maps.
I do find however, that in bright sunlight it’s very difficult to read a phone screen, so I’m considering a standalone gps unit for this reason.
Every system has a failure point, electronic devices rely on battery power and can be dropped/smashed, paper maps can blow away or get soaked, but by far (i reckon) the most common failure is the human element, people who don’t know what they are doing.
If you don’t know what you’re doing, it won’t matter which type of system you use.

“If you can’t drive, it won’t matter which car you get in, you still won’t be able to drive”

Are there some actual real statistics on how much of a problem this is from the various mountain rescue teams around the UK (and in other countries) ?

I can only speak for 1 team, albeit a busy one in the Lakes. The majority of lost/technology failure incidents are for folks who wouldn't know which way up to hold a map, but the reassurance of electronic navigation gets them up in to the hills and then poor decisions, 'surprising' weather or darkness or battery failure result in problems. The problem isn't the tech, it's the lack of preparedness/basic skills/contingency planning, and this is an age-old problem. (?perhaps worse in the 'Insta' generation?). Plenty of people using 1 phone as camera, torch, nav and communication device then surprise at battery failure.

This is particularly true for the 'honey pot' mountains, folks just turn up, stick the destination in their phone and head on up. All in all we now have far less calls for lost or missing folks than even 5 or 6 years ago, as technology has helped a great deal, but it isn't the panacea for every situation. 'Making' folks carry a map they can't use doesn't help at all.

Like so many things in the outdoors there are a number of different versions of 'the right equipment'. There isn't one right answer to what kit you should take to be safe and I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who says there is. That's partly because people's activities vary so much and partly because it's not the kit that makes you safe but knowing how to use it and what its and your limitations are.

I’m looking at 6.5 x 9.5 km on my phone now. To see further I might have to scroll but hey… When in a navigation, as opposed to route planning, situation do you need to zoom out further? And actually these days I do route plan on the phone too, though helps if you’ve already a feel for the territory, for which I do prefer my map on paper (the same os map, obv).

But can you actually squint to a useful level of detail? A 1:25k map is the size it is because it's legible. My phone would probably try and show the entire uk at 1:25k if I let it, but it would just be mush.

My point was, if I was following a paper map, I've likely also been taking bearings off various landmarks, know what bearing I'm supposed to be heading on, how many meters/km to the next path etc.

So if someone dropped it and broke their leg, I could be reasonably sure of being able to carry on without it to fetch help.

Do recidivists who insist that electronic aids are fallible refuse to get on aircraft unless the pilot has pinned a paper copy with calculations of his flight plan on the plane door?

Ad hominem insults aside......

That's an entirely different scenario, if you could hike with a 12" radar screen and touchscreen plotter, that would be great.

If the pilot got out his Garmin Oregon and said "It's Ok ladies and gentlemen I've got my old iPhone6 as backup", then yes, I'd probably get off the plane.

Anyway, remote and challenging stuff aside, it's on local from the front door lockdown rambles with my wife, exploring not always visible footpaths through fields that the phone is fantastic. I'm a reasonable old school navigator, but fiddling over farmland has got a lot less frustrating.

those issues can all be true of an electronic map too! Ok blown away less likely – but dropped is not.

I don’t disagree, I was just challenging “paper maps never go wrong”

On competence with GPS users. I think there is a tendency to believe GPS is infallible and thus people rely too much on them so if it fails for whatever reason then they are less likely to have skills to deal with the failure.

This, I think there is a tendency with gps tech to feel
Like you don’t actually need to know where you are as long as the gps tells you that you are heading towards the intended destination.

I’ll concede that most of the Concerns raised on here aren’t aimed at those who are taking part in the debate, rather those who shouldn’t be on the hills for various reasons (clothing, footwear, lack of safety equipment etc) plus a general lack of navigation competence which won’t be fixed by a gps or a map.

Sadly my nav skills have diminished now I use GPS/tech so much. I can count paces but can't remember the last time I actually HAD to do that

I have a Garmin Oregon which gets used for bikepacking and walking. I always have a map with me because my trips over last 3 days max really and I like being able to get the perspective and scale that a map offers. A GPS can't compete with that. Phones seems to be quicker/better at it than my Oregon but it's VERY old so newer ones are probably better

I find the same problem just on bike rides, trying to zoom in to see a path and then zoom out to see where it goes etc. But getting out a paper map on a ride is more faff than when walking

Sadly my nav skills have diminished now I use GPS/tech so much. I can count paces but can’t remember the last time I actually HAD to do that

friends ski touring in Scotland with a well known guide on a challenging day out, map and compass eventually abandoned in favour of gps, as he needed to know where they actually were...

Ever had a 100mph gust grab at your map case and pull you off a cliff??!?!? Careful now.

Nah, but I have been on Cairngorm in 100mph+ gusts and let's just say the map case wasn't being blown away - I was being blown away. You could hear the gusts coming in, you knelt holding buddy next to you by the rucksack straps, slammed ice-axe into the floor and held on... One of my most frightening hill experiences, up there with lightning on Crib Goch and Cullin TD gap in the damp...

Maybe been done, but I found electronic navigation to be more faff than a folded map in a waterproof case, especially once you factor in cold wet hands/gloves (anything that spares me having to remove gloves is a huge time and comfort saver). Folded map in a case sits inside one of the big pockets of my waterproof or if it's not driving rain etc. will just go inside main zip.

Will confess to losing one map in the wind, but that was in the days when I was too cool and minimalist to use the neck loop...

Maybe being unsentimental about your maps helps, I'll typically fold them to one or two 'panels' and will always make sure that the map is folded so I can just flip the map case over if and when I move from one panel to the next. To do so means removing the cardboard front flap, and usually creating your own creases to match the area you are hiking.

Needless to say, not a single one of my OS maps has kept its original crispness, they're all looking a bit foxed and baggy now.

friends ski touring in Scotland with a well known guide on a challenging day out, map and compass eventually abandoned in favour of gps, as he needed to know where they actually were…

That's why I bought my Garmin Oregon. Ski touring in a whiteout so thick we couldn't see the texture of the snow at our feet, hydro lake on one side, drops/cliffs on the other, needed to get round the lake to one of 3 gullies.

We made it fine, but as I was shuffling along, looking down at paper map and compass in one hand, checking barometer/altimeter on my phone in the other, ski poles dangling on straps, I just thought "All I want is a little electronic map with "you are here" on it!"

I'd have had compass and altimeter on the same screen, everything else in the pack, hands on poles, kept moving a bit quicker and concentrating more on what was around us.

I've been using ViewRanger for a decade, and it's really only let me down once, when the battery on my phone failed, in the rain, after dark, on a bike ride where taking maps would have been impractical (the maps would have weighed more than my bike).

But I recently tried the new Outdooractive app which has replaced it, just out walking my dogs.

It has a curious feature where if you zoom in, then it hides some features - so I had no idea that there was a footpath near to me because I was at the "wrong" zoom level. ViewRanger doesn't do this.

Fortunately I did not need to call out the East Anglian Mountain Rescue Team as I was able to switch back to VR.

So....if I was going to head out somewhere other than some local fields, with Outdooractive rather than VR, and until I figure out what's going on, then yes, I might end up taking a paper map.

I prefer paper maps because its easier to get an overall fell for the area. On a bike I use gps more as stopping and getting a map out can become a pain. Also I find planning route on a paper map easier because the bigger picture ability and easier to modify the route when out.

Maybe being unsentimental about your maps helps, I’ll typically fold them to one or two ‘panels’ and will always make sure that the map is folded so I can just flip the map case over if and when I move from one panel to the next. To do so means removing the cardboard front flap, and usually creating your own creases to match the area you are hiking.

I do that too.

That’s why I bought my Garmin Oregon. Ski touring in a whiteout so thick we couldn’t see the texture of the snow at our feet, hydro lake on one side, drops/cliffs on the other, needed to get round the lake to one of 3 gullies.

Nearly 10 years ago now...Out on Cairngorm with a buddy, booted up the Goat Track then put skis on to skirt round the corrie to 1141 then up to Cairngorm. As it was a total pea souper my mate suggested he use his GPS. I wanted to have a play about navigating on skis as it is a bit different from walking so I said I'd use the old ways. It turned into 10 steps, check bearing, 10 steps check bearing. After one block of 10 steps I lifted the compass to check and noticed that the tips of my skis were hanging over the edge of the cornice above the Mess of Pottage cliff. We got the GPS out after that!

Usually I use printouts. Longer trips require the paper maps for route flexibility and the relevant paper map is often carried as a backup and entertainment. Orienteering background so the map points where I want it to point not easy on the screen. Also I find it hard to plan routes using screens.... especially when out

If you get lost in the lakes do you not just ask someone in the crowd for directions 😉

Anyway I think nedrapier should probably have closed the thread with his comment.

I'm old school, I always take a map and compass when out in the hills, but I also use a GPS device. I use all of them depending on where I am going. For me the map shows and provides a lot more.

Cycling, I just use A4 sheets with a list of villages/places on the back to follow a route and also the GPS.

I've often taken photos of OS maps and used those if needed. You can zoom in a long way! I make sure I have a full-charge in the phone obviously and it's not much use pinching and zooming with very cold or gloved fingers (and my phone screen is tiny), but it's worked fine in the right circumstances. The times where I have slightly lost my way have all been in places where there isn't a noticeable path, sometimes just blazes on rock, which can be easy to miss. But that's not been in the UK.

We both a waterproof phone. That does it.

Sad times but 1000% less faff.