Underclass is your your language not mine, seosahm77. I respectfully refer to them as non-vaccinated.
On a lighter note which guitar are you strumming between posts? If got an Epiphone Texan on my knee and I'm playing Lio's Les Brunes Comptent pas pour des Prunes. 🙂
The language used doesn't really matter, call it what you will, but if you think about it, what you are doing is limiting the freedom of people based on an out come that might happen to a very small percentage of them.
Tbh that is the very definition of collective punishment, which is a human rights abuse.
(Got my dodgy glarry bass and mexican strat to hand. always) 😆
Not to rain too hard on the parade, but there is no herd immunity to coronaviruses. There is waning immunity and reboosting based on reinfections every couple of years. About 10% of reported cases are reinfections with omicron. That they tend to be mild is a huge bonus and will be providing that natural boosting.
The problem with SARS-COV-2 is that we started from a zero baseline. Effectively nobody had ever seen the pathogen and had zero immunity, which led to unacceptable morbidity, notably in the elderly, but also longer-term effects in a younger population.
Vaccination has removed a LOT of that morbidity, but one expects sweeping waves of future variants which we will tend to shrug off with our past vaccination and infection history. Add to that annual vaccinations. Viruses that we think of as benign, are serious for the elderly and immunocompromised, and there will be effective treatments for these people. There are now more treatment options for SARS-COV-2 than there are rhinovirus.
Let me leave this here to say how fast things are progressing. Worth a quick read of the infographic. It's been quite a ride.
Tbh that is the very definition of collective punishment, which is a human rights abuse.
‘Punishment’ … more drama.
We need to keep people out of hospital this winter. Pick a method… they all impact lots of people who wouldn’t need hospital, whichever means you choose.
The language used doesn’t really matter, call it what you will, but if you think about it, what you are doing is limiting the freedom of people based on an out come that might happen to a very small percentage of them.
In the same way that the small percentage of unvaccinated are causing hospitals to be full and limiting the freedoms of the remaining population?
based on an out come that might happen to a very small percentage of them.
Faux ! based on the damage them getting ill will do to society in general and people in need of hopital treatment for reasons that can't be vaccinated against. It only take 1% of non-vaccinated needing hopital treatment, which happens to be the percentage likely to need hospital treatment, to keep the hospitals full for months.
Not to rain too hard on the parade
Not at all, your post is reassuring. And I'll add to your mitigating factors the trend towards more infectious but less deadly forms which we are currently seeing with Omicron and will hopefully continue.
I'm looking forward to visiting the Baltic this Summer.
Chew
Free Member
The language used doesn’t really matter, call it what you will, but if you think about it, what you are doing is limiting the freedom of people based on an out come that might happen to a very small percentage of them.In the same way that the small percentage of unvaccinated are causing hospitals to be full and limiting the freedoms of the remaining population?
I don't know the other numbers but it isn't just the unvaccinated that are filling hospitals, as some would have you believe. but up here in Scotland, unvaccinated are about 1/4 of hospital admissions, and about 1/8 of deaths. Which considering the numbers pre vaccination, seems to be the residual level we'll need to be dealing with.
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I think people are over playing the issue tbh. They aren't causing runaway numbers.
TiRed
Full Member
Not to rain too hard on the parade, but there is no herd immunity to coronaviruses. There is waning immunity and reboosting based on reinfections every couple of years. About 10% of reported cases are reinfections with omicron. That they tend to be mild is a huge bonus and will be providing that natural boosting.The problem with SARS-COV-2 is that we started from a zero baseline. Effectively nobody had ever seen the pathogen and had zero immunity, which led to unacceptable morbidity, notably in the elderly, but also longer-term effects in a younger population.
Vaccination has removed a LOT of that morbidity, but one expects sweeping waves of future variants which we will tend to shrug off with our past vaccination and infection history. Add to that annual vaccinations. Viruses that we think of as benign, are serious for the elderly and immunocompromised, and there will be effective treatments for these people. There are now more treatment options for SARS-COV-2 than there are rhinovirus.
Let me leave this here to say how fast things are progressing. Worth a quick read of the infographic. It’s been quite a ride.
/blockquote>
Cheers, quite a rapid development on the treatments.
kelvin
Full Member
Tbh that is the very definition of collective punishment, which is a human rights abuse.‘Punishment’ … more drama.
We need to keep people out of hospital this winter. Pick a method… they all impact lots of people who wouldn’t need hospital, whichever means you choose.
Method I pick is vaccinating as many as we can and then deal with the rest, nothing else for it.
And I'm not being dramatic at all(limiting peoples freedom based on the what ifs of a minority is collective punishment), covid isn't going to go away, there will be scares and waves in the future.
I'm against setting precedents that involve excluding people from society.
Edukator
Free Member
based on an out come that might happen to a very small percentage of them.Faux ! based on the damage them getting ill will do to society in general and people in need of hopital treatment for reasons that can’t be vaccinated against. It only take 1% of non-vaccinated needing hopital treatment, which happens to be the percentage likely to need hospital treatment, to keep the hospitals full for months.
Increasing hospital capacity to suit would seem the more logical approach to me.
Well, if you start about 5 years ago in preparation for this pandemic (or start now in preparation for a possible future one), then yes, that is a sound decision to make. It isn’t an answer to what we do this winter to cope with what is happening right now, is it.
Right now, the issue is that we didn't start boosters a month earlier. How bad it will turn out we don't know yet, we might well have caught it in time, but most over 50s were vaccinated before Omicron really hit.. but it's not particularly an antivax issue.
I've been reading this thread for a while, but not posted.
Those who could be vaccinated, but choose not to, need to realise there are consequences for actions and decisions. It is that simple.
And I’m not being dramatic at all(limiting peoples freedom based on the what ifs of a minority is collective punishment)
But ^^^ this along with underclass is getting a bit silly!
Those who's eye sight (or other medical issue) means they require a medical license to drive ONLY receive this license (or or comparison permission to do something) if they wear their glasses (or other treatment). If you don't wear the glasses, you wouldn't be allowed to drive because of the RISK of causing a collision. Does that make people like this an underclass? Those who could wear glasses but refuse to... I don't know... because the person doesn't know how glasses work and they might get a head ache from wearing them? They are an underclass for not being allowed to drive? Because of their own choice?
EDIT: remove formatting
Increasing hospital capacity to suit would seem the more logical approach to me.
You're aware that we have had decades of underfunding the NHS, including 11 years of this latest Tory government who are blatant in their aspirations of defunding and then selling off the NHS to the private sector, yeah?
I'm sorry but like a lot of people I'm getting fed up with Anti-Vaxxers and their "I've done my own research on Facebook" approach to a public health crisis.
I don’t know the other numbers but it isn’t just the unvaccinated that are filling hospitals, as some would have you believe. but up here in Scotland, unvaccinated are about 1/4 of hospital admissions, and about 1/8 of deaths
Err..
11-17 December = 34.54 unvaccinated people are admitted to Hospital out of (34.54+22.16+29.72+2.77) =89.19
So 39%
8.3% of the Scottish population are unvaccinated
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=nation&areaName=Scotland
So 8.3% are causing 39% of the hospitalisations
and 91.7% are causing 61% of the hospitalisations
I think people are over playing the issue tbh. They aren’t causing runaway numbers.
All things being equal, if everyone was vaccinated hospital admissions would have be 33% lower
Well, if you start about 5 years ago in preparation for this pandemic (or start now in preparation for a possible future one),
Pfizer had an IV version of Paxlovid in 2004. Yes you read that correctly. But when SARS-COV-1 dissappeared, so did the market for an IV antiviral. Pandemic protection requires some forward preparation with suitable incentives. How those incentives will work post this pandemic, we shall see...
tbh I don't put the whole antivax cohort down as conspiracy theorists myself. if you look at the age curve of the non vaccinated. it's get lower the younger it gets, so to me that says complacency is more of an issue than conspiracy theories.
Anyhoo, I've presented my opinions, agree or don't! i'm not forcing you to agree. 😆
Pandemic protection requires some forward preparation with suitable incentives.
Absolutely it does. And seosamh77 has a good point about hospital capacity. But that takes time and planning… we won’t quickly magic up the staff and resources to treat more Covid patients this winter… well, we will, and are, by cutting back elsewhere.
I personally know 4 people who haven’t had any jabs(no health issues)none have caught Covid.
How do you know that they haven't had covid?
Do you mean none have shown any obvious symptoms of covid?
Up to 40% of people with Covid are asymptomatic so it is reasonable to assume that they might have caught covid, especially if they haven't been vaccinated.
It is therefore also reasonable to assume that they might have passed covid on to vulnerable people - there are almost 4 million people in England who are extremely vulnerable to covid, and it is often impossible to know who they are just by looking at them.
but up here in Scotland, unvaccinated are about 1/4 of hospital admissions,
I was about to post vaccination figures for Scotland but I see Chew has already done it. Seems to me you are much more likely to require hospital treatment if you are not vaccinated. I think I'm right in saying too that vaccinated patients on the whole respond more quickly to treatment and are thus out of hospital quicker.
Given the current state of the NHS I think we should all be doing our bit to help minimise the impact. Yes, yes I know it's all the Tories fault but:
… we won’t quickly magic up the staff and resources to treat more Covid patients this winter…
Oh by the way, I don't know anyone who is eligible but unvaccinated. I must live in a very tiny bubble.
there are almost 4 million people in England who are extremely vulnerable to covid, and it is often impossible to know who they are just by looking at them.
not meaning to downplay people medical conditions which I do not know, but 90% of the people I know personally* who got their first jab earlier than their agegroup cohort could be described as "quite unhealthy" just by looking at them / a brief look at their general lifestyle and diet.
*clearly less than 4 million. and most are either blood relations, or people I know through sport and outdoor pursuits, so I am not claiming a representative sample.
slowoldman
Full Member
but up here in Scotland, unvaccinated are about 1/4 of hospital admissions,I was about to post vaccination figures for Scotland but I see Chew has already done it. Seems to me you are much more likely to require hospital treatment if you are not vaccinated. I think I’m right in saying too that vaccinated patients on the whole respond more quickly to treatment and are thus out of hospital quicker.
I don't disagree with that at all, I understand percentage of population, i think the unvaccinated should get vaccinated, just making the argument that there is a residual level of unvaccinated that we are going to have to deal with(more down to complacency than conspiracy imo), and it'll probably become a bigger cohort if boosters are continually required too, imo.
I just think we have to accept there’s a level of dafties in the country that don’t want the personal protection, but that’s their choice. Unfortunately there are some consequences to that that we’ll just have to accept.
I think most of us do by and large. Still, popping on here to call everyone sheeple because they are taking steps to protect themselves having been given the benefit of informed opinion from people who do actual science, is likely to put a few backs up...
TBH we've done tremendously well to get as many vaccinated as we have. It was mooted that we'd be doing well to get 75% done and we've done significantly better than that. I'm not going to get all upset by those who continue to refuse now. 🤷
Right now, the issue is that we didn’t start boosters a month earlier.
Agreed. I think that's the most striking thing about those hospital numbners you posted. the booster came late and with relatively poor uptake. Those with only two jabs are taking up a lot of hospital capacity. On this side of the Channel the UK and Israel data propted governments to advance boosters and we haven't seen the pressure on hospitals from double-vaccinated people with waning immunity.
Del
Full Member
TBH we’ve done tremendously well to get as many vaccinated as we have. It was mooted that we’d be doing well to get 75% done and we’ve done significantly better than that. I’m not going to get all upset by those who continue to refuse now. 🤷
Yeah, I think this too.
I also think it's a bit of a moot argument until the rest of the world is vaccinated, rather than focusing on the unvaxxed that don't want it here, for what ever reason, I'd give their doses away to people that do want it.
Anyhoo, enough covid chat for now, I'm off to enjoy my triple dosed, recently infected, super immunity for a while! 😆
I’m not going to get all upset by those who continue to refuse now.
Yeah I'm going that way too. 90% of people over the age of 12 have had a least one jab so the anti-vaxxers really are a small minority. I'm not sure how well the pandemic can be maintained by 10% of the population.
The pandemic will roll on regardless and 10% unvaccinated is enough to maintain the crisis in the NHS.
not meaning to downplay people medical conditions which I do not know, but 90% of the people I know personally* who got their first jab earlier than their agegroup cohort could be described as “quite unhealthy” just by looking at them / a brief look at their general lifestyle and diet.
Which still leaves a remaining percentage who are very vulnerable.
Unless of course your argument is that the remaining percentage are such a small number we shouldn't bother trying to protect them.
This is interesting … shareholders pushing for better world wide vaccine availability …
https://twitter.com/astroehlein/status/1479151723851747331?s=21
There were 43 people in ICU with covid yesterday in Scotland, isn’t this a success? Considering the NHS needs to fill over 90K positions.
UK, you can’t go to a bar or restaurant in Spain at the moment if you are unvaccinated
You can’t consume *inside* a bar or restaurant but you can consume on the terrace which is most people’s preference anyway. You could argue that nobody should be inside a bar in large groups in this situation, given - anecdotally - the number of people off work after Xmas party infections. I think they’re getting it massively wrong with this passport idea.
Lockdowns returning to parts of Australia now.
If i heard correctly the Northern Territory lockdown will apply to unvaccinated people only.
Everyone I know that has been killed or seriously injured in a road accident was wearing a seatbelt. What conclusion do you draw from that?
But lots of people in car crashes have minimal injuries and not wearing seatbelts too ? Your point is invalid.
All you sheeple carry on being guinea pigs for old vaccinations with slight tweaks !!
All you sheeple carry on being guinea pigs for old vaccinations with slight tweaks !!
Christ...
why's the point invalid. What are you illustrating with your comment?
My point is that when the vast majority of the population is vaccinated (wears seatbelts) then of course most people catching the virus (being KSI in crashes) will also be from that subgroup.
Your second comment.....you're not antivax yet you consider pro-vax people to be sheeple?
He said sheeple!
“do your own research” next!
I am tripled jabbed and I now consider vaccination to be a waste of time.
I had covid over Christmas and my symptoms were so mild that had I known before I was jabbed that the symptoms would be that mild I wouldn't have bothered with vaccination.
I feel I was taken for an idiot.
God damn it Ernie, will you start using an emoji!😁
...
Update from WA....
Rest of the country is going crazy for Omicron.
Here in WA we've had a week of mask wearing. Cases now up to 70 odd.
Today they've just announced mask wearing is no longer necessary from 6pm tonight.
(Last week they closed all the clubs, told people dancing was banned and pushing booster doses much earlier).
I don't really understand the logic. We're supposed to be opening up our borders on 5th Feb - Omicron is smashing eastern states and on it's way here.... but it's ok not to mask up now?
ernielynch
Free Member
I am tripled jabbed and I now consider vaccination to be a waste of time.I had covid over Christmas and my symptoms were so mild that had I known before I was jabbed that the symptoms would be that mild I wouldn’t have bothered with vaccination.
What did you have, delta or omicron? Perhaps your symptoms would have been worse if you weren't medicated? Doesn't evidence show that there's more protection from previously having delta and then getting omicron? Than the medication alone which may / may not have any benefit to protection from omicron??
What did you have, delta or omicron?
No idea, I guess I should be just happy that I got it and that it's opened my eyes about the vaccine. Most people I know who have been vaccinated haven't caught it.
Ernie, can't work out if you are taking the piss? Do you not think your symptoms were milder because you have been pre prepared for the virus by taking the vaccine. Being the whole point in having a vaccine.
Daughter tested positive on Tues am, wife positive yesterday evening and son this am.
D&S have only had first jabs, wife is 2x and booster. So not having had the booster makes you twice as likely to get Covid in my mini experiment. 4x if you consider I don't have it therefore the average of cases among the fully vaxxed is 0.5. My paper will be submitted later (but it's ****ed my 'mums are impervious' one from a couple of days ago)
'Self isolation' - there's now barely a room in my house I can go into......sleeping on the sofa, shared bathroom and kitchen. It's going to end up where I'm isolating from them rather than v/v.
Wanna borrow a tent? I could even give you a porta potti 🙂
There were 43 people in ICU with covid yesterday in Scotland, isn’t this a success?
Except that those are 43 ICU beds that could have been used to allow 43 people to have a major life changing operation that has now been delayed further.
