The Coronavirus Discussion Thread.

I know a few people who have chosen not to get vaccinated (for Covid), one guy at work, my Brother and his Mrs. Sadly for my Brothers eldest lad he’s in the vulnerable category. At the time this boiled my piss as they all could have had a vaccination really early and been a bit safer. But nah, they knew better and all ended up with Covid and were quite ill.

They’ve still not bothered and neither has the guy at work, “just don’t want that in their body”. Which is weird ‘cos they absolutely ****ing love a bit of Charlie on a night out which instantly nullifies all of their arguments IMO.

Source for that figure? I thought it was estimated to be higher. The official case numbers are presumably a massive under-estimate due to the large number asymptomatic. ONS data seems to back that up.

Just Google data, putting in 'uk covid' brings up cases, deaths, vaccines etc and toggling to 'per million' gives a number of 200k cases which makes a neat 1 in 5. Of course you're probably right, that is probably based on reported cases so probably more, maybe even double that? I've had it but not 'reported' it so it's at least 200,001 😀

EDIT: Unless of course the amount of positive tests people have fabricated to get some time off work offset that...

they are lockdown enablers despite most being against restrictions.

That delicious irony needs to be highlighted more

Even as a twin vaxxed person myself it’s amazing the animosity on here shown to people who choose not to have the vaccine.

Surely as triple vaxxed people you should be relatively safe against these unvaxxed monsters anyway

There can be consequences from the vaccine so there should be a choice -just ask one of your own kyle warner- former pro mtber who has been royally f’d up by his Pfizer dose.

Surely as triple vaxxed people you should be relatively safe against these unvaxxed monsters anyway

Yeah, I am. But there are people who cannot have the vaccine even though they want it. Or people who are still at great risk because should they catch it they would likely die (like my Dad). Those people need everyone else to get vaccinated to protect them. Being vaccinated is in part a selfless act, many otherwise decent anti-vaxxers seem not to understand this.

It's not 'my body my choice' really, it's 'my body, my choice, other people's safety'.

As for it being a Government conspiracy, that's about the least plausible thing I've heard. This is a major headache for all governments, why would they fake it? Democratic governments do lie and cheat but they need happy voters. Unhappy voters don't vote them back in.

There can be consequences from the vaccine

Yep, but much rarer than consequences from COVID even in healthy people. My Brother in Law was double jabbed, then caught COVID anyway before he could get boosted, now he has pneumonia and scarred lungs and it's an ongoing situation.

Its not about being protected personally, its about allowing society to function. NHS and care workers can't go to work with Covid. We already have stories of 12 hr waits for ambulances.

WE have run down all services in the country to bare minimum, so there is no flex. 25% staff isolating means stuff stops working.

Yeah, that's the other thing - anti-vaxxers are needlessly occupying beds when a good portion of them wouldn't have otherwise caught it or needed hospitalisation. Those beds can't then be used for treating other issues.

So I think a degree of animosity is understandable. It's NOT just your body your choice. Your choice is hurting everyone.

when a good portion of them wouldn’t have otherwise caught it. Those beds can’t then be used for treating other issues.

Or more significantly would not have got so ill if they had been vaccinated so they could have had their covid episode in the comfort of their own home rather than taking up NHS capacity being treated for a more severe version.

Surely as triple vaxxed people you should be relatively safe against these unvaxxed monsters anyway

I may be safe against them, but whilst they clog up hospitals they are still ruining everyday life for the rest of us.
And thats as a fit and healthy person. If I needed some sort of non-Covid NHS care or thought I might soon I would be significantly more upset.

@jhinwxm

Hate speech like this is worse than covid by a million miles.

That has got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

My mate Charlie died of Covid in April 2020. He suffocated slowly over the course of 3 weeks. He was in an induced coma for the last week. He was woken up for a few minutes so his wife and 9 year old daughter could say goodbye to him via an ipad. He was 42 with no existing health issues. And you think me calling you stupid and selfish is worse than that? Really?

I bet all those "I don't want any unnatural substances in my body" people change their minds pretty bloody quickly when they are in ITU. I bet they are begging the Dr's to give them anything possible to keep them alive.

Then what about my mum's neighbour who is fit and healthy apart from being in pain and wheelchair bound while she waits for a hip replacement. The op has now been deferred 4 times due to lack of beds. Beds taken up by people in hospital with covid, 80% of whom chose for various spurious reasons not to be vaccinated. Where is her choice? These selfish people are keeping a 72 year old woman in a wheelchair. I hope they are proud of themselves.

But hospitals are clogged up with people who smoke and eat too much junk food and they are not getting vilified in the same way.

But hospitals are clogged up with people who smoke and eat too much junk food and they are not getting vilified in the same way.

You sure about that - this forum has a long proud tradition of being fattist. And we bullied Binners into quitting smoking for shits and giggles.

But I do get your point....the mtber who does something toe curlingly stupid and takes up a hospital bed as a consequence will still get the get well vibes.

But hospitals are clogged up with people who smoke and eat too much junk food and they are not getting vilified in the same way.

A very valid observation! Doesn't invalidate the points above RE selfishness taking up beds but valid nonetheless. Same as the message that's being sent that the solution is to get the vaccine and not to promote a healthier lifestyle. Of course fit people get covid and even die from it but they, on average, suffer less with it. The same as with the vaccine you still get covid but suffer less

Message should be: get your jabs AND do couch to 5k, eat no more than 2 junk meals a week etc. But we can't do that, that's fat shaming

But hospitals are clogged up with people who smoke and eat too much junk food and they are not getting vilified in the same way.

Those things aren't catching though. Patients with covid cause resource issues in hospitals beyond that of the patients you describe, not least because they can infect staff and cause them to be off work. Also... go and look at the numbers right now... compare current Covid patient numbers with those in hospital suffering ill health partly due to the other choices you mention.

molgrips
Full Member
But there are people who cannot have the vaccine even though they want it. Or people who are still at great risk because should they catch it they would likely die (like my Dad). Those people need everyone else to get vaccinated to protect them. Being vaccinated is in part a selfless act, many otherwise decent anti-vaxxers seem not to understand this.

That would make sense if the vaccines didn't have similar properties to a chocolate teapot when it comes to stopping the spread.

These vaccines are largely about protecting the individual and reducing NHS pressure.

So vaccine fascism is pretty much illogical tbh(I normally wouldn't call it that but some people are taking it too far). I know that'll not stop people mind...

It can also be argued that smoking, over-eating and drinking are all forms of addiction sometimes caused by mental issues.
Simply deciding to not have a vaccine is not.

vaccines didn’t have similar properties to a chocolate teapot when it comes to stopping the spread

Nonsense. It's more like a metal mesh fireguard, which isn't as effective as a fire door. Data from previous variants (including Delta that is still an issue in the UK, even if the media have lost interest) show that you are less likely to catch it, less likely to have symptoms, less likely to be infectious, and if you are infectious you are likely to be infectious for a shorter period of time. You are also less likely to fall seriously ill, and if you do you are less likely to end up in hospital, and if you do you are less likely to need intensive care, and if you do you are less likely to need ventilation, and if you do you are less likely to die. Other than that, yes, just like a chocolate fireguard.

vaccines fascism

How dramatic. [Edit: ahh.. nice edit seosamh77]

...all forms of addiction sometimes caused by mental issues.
Simply deciding to not have a vaccine is not.

That's a whole discussion it might be wise to avoid.

Rampant numbers would suggest otherwise. It's not stopping enough population level transmission to make any valuable difference. (Not saying it isn't stopping some, but clearly it's not effective enough)

Has anyone (in Scotland) taken a teen for 2nd dose a bit early. NHS inform says that second dose should be given between 8 and 12 weeks after first dose but all regional health board vaccine pages say they will only give them after 12 weeks. He's at 11 weeks since first dose.
Asking purely selfishly as I'd like to take miniLD on holiday at half term and we're getting tight for time to get second dose and time for app to show valid status.
On the same issue does anyone know how long after vaccine the codes become valid on covid status app (for Italy green pass)?

Good Twitter thread on making buildings healthier (nothing new, just collects it all together for a good quick read)…

https://twitter.com/adsquires/status/1478804143837954056?s=21

Rampant numbers would suggest otherwise. It’s not stopping enough population level transmission to make any valuable difference. (Not saying it isn’t stopping some, but clearly it’s not effective enough)

Rampant numbers mostly suggest that Omicron is highly infectious. Numbers might have been even higher without vaccinations (including Boosters). And might have been lower with more vaccine and booster coverage (that's not just about people refusing doses though, many people have had to put off doses due to catching covid because we chose not to use other measures while we rolled out vaccines and boosters... especially true of kids where we started late while exposing them to natural infection last term). [ admittedly, lots of speculation there, as we really don't have great data on Omicron... but that works both ways ]

Yeah, I get that, I'm highly pro vaccine, I don't really need convincing of the benefits, but like I say I don't think reduced transmission of them is particularly good. So idea that taking the vaccine is a selfless act doesn't really ring true.

I just think we have to accept there's a level of dafties in the country that don't want the personal protection, but that's their choice. Unfortunately there are some consequences to that that we'll just have to accept and adjust for. i'm defo against mandatory vaccination.

I'm not for forcing people to do anything, whether legally or through peer pressure, or gleeful witch hunts (note the joy people are having around the djokovic thing at the minute).

He was woken up for a few minutes so his wife and 9 year old daughter could say goodbye to him via an ipad.

Do they really do that? Grim if they do. In this part of the world patients are told they're being put in a coma and they have a better than 50:50 chance of coming out. If they do come out they know there's a good chance they'll survive. I wouldn't be impressed by being brought round and thinking I'd made it just to be told I was definitely going to die and would I like to say goodbye.

I don’t think reduced transmission of them is particularly good.

Unfortunately Omicron was taking off, and Delta firmly in place, before we really got good coverage with boosters... we have better coverage now, and that will help keep numbers down... if we had even better coverage, we'd be in a better position. The hold outs are not helping us. But also, as I said, coverage is also lower because so many people have had to wait to get doses due to catching covid while we ran hot for months on end.

I’m not for forcing people to do anything, whether legally or through peer pressure

Are you sure about that? "Anything"?!?

It’s not stopping enough population level transmission to make any valuable difference.

The reason for that is shown in picture form here.
See how the uptake flattens off for each dose leaving the country at around 50% covered?

TLDR: Not enough people have had all three jabs.

Yeah, I get that, I’m highly pro vaccine, I don’t really need convincing of the benefits, but like I say I don’t think reduced transmission of them is particularly good. So idea that taking the vaccine is a selfless act doesn’t really ring true

Disagree on it not being a selfless act as per Kelvin's points up there ^^^. Taking the reduced transmission claim and survival (selfish) points out of his claim it still leaves us with

...and if you do you are less likely to end up in hospital, and if you do you are less likely to need intensive care...

These seem selfless to me, particularly given the importance of health service availability every winter and and requirement to support the base load of clinical care outside of pandemic-specific treatment.

kelvin
Full Member
I’m not for forcing people to do anything, whether legally or through peer pressure

Are you sure about that? “Anything”?!?

give me some examples? what would you force people to do?

WE have run down all services in the country to bare minimum, so there is no flex. 25% staff isolating means stuff stops working.

Not us but The Conservatives, remember they have had 11 years in power and have stripped the service of funding to give to their mates. (Currently at around £100 Billion and counting).

My personal view is that no, you should not be forced to take the vaccine, mandatory 'medical treatment' is a very slippery slope, moraly and ethicaly speaking, especially given how quick the powers that be are to abuse things.

Anti-vaxxers will just have to get used to being excluded form certain things.

HOWEVER.. I have a few friends who are anti-vax, and it's probematic for me to respect thier stance or take them seriously. To the point I wouldn't really call them friends anymore. I don't refuse to speak to them, but I don't respect them any longer.

Sandwich
Full Member

TLDR: Not enough people have had all three jabs.

Agreed, but it was always obvious that as the doses continued each dose take up would get lower, look at the first dose, higher than the 2nd, and I'm sure the 3rd will level out lower than the 2nd. When it comes to the 4th and 5th doses this will reduce further.

It's just something we need to deal with.

Also... at this stage... vaccines alone are not enough yet. And few people are claiming they are. That doesn't mean they aren't vital, and the higher the coverage the better.

mattyfez
Free Member

HOWEVER.. I have a few friends who are anti-vax, and it’s probematic for me to respect thier stance or take them seriously.

I've got 2, one that hasn't taken any, and one that isn't for the 3rd.

There's no logic that will convince them, I've tried.

Dafties are a reality.

what would you force people to do?

A silly example? Wear pants when in front of my kids.
Real examples? Pay taxes. All drive on the same side of the road.

@LD - Ben had his booster two weeks early, they just fitted him in with my appointment.
I understand that there is a slight reduction in effectiveness by being 'early'.

kelvin
Full Member
what would you force people to do?

A silly example? Wear pants when in front of my kids.
Real examples? Pay taxes. All drive on the same side of the road.

😆 fair enough agreed, I think the evidence for them is overwhelming there though.. Vaccine stopping transmission, not so much. Particularly given our current let it rip strategy.(Which I largely agree with btw, I think Omicron is the right time to do it) We're just going to have to give the NHS enough resources to deal with the consequences.

give me some examples? what would you force people to do?

Wear at least underpants in public except in designated naturist areas, drive on the correct side of the road, MOT and insure their car, pay their taxes, pay for goods and services they use, produce food safe to eat if they sell it to others... . Have a look at the law, most of it is pretty sensible..

Edit: I'm not Kelvin's other login, however on this thread our logic is worryingly similar.

No anti-vaxxer has yet answered the question:
‘will you if admitted to hospital with covid take the modified mouse DNA pills that will see the virus mutate itself to death inside your body and you hopefully discharged in a few days?’

taking DNA modified mutant rodent juice must be a big NO if you don’t want an “untested” vaccine?

I personally know 4 people who haven’t had any jabs(no health issues)none have caught Covid.

But I know of at least 6 people who have all had at least 2 jabs and few also had booster have caught Covid twice 🤷‍♂️

Makes you wonder ?

I’m not an anti-vaxxer I’m happy to take my chances and if in time I’m not allowed in anywhere I’m good with that !!

I don't know what messaging you're getting in the UK but "Vaccine stopping transmission" hasn't been a thing here for months, Delta put an end to that idea which has been replaced with "slowing transmission".

The big argument for vacccination is keeping people out of hospital because when hospitals are full ski resorts have to close (you can't run a ski resort without the capacity to fix broken people), people have to work from home, places people meet have to close... etc. There's a huge economic and social cost to giving people the freedom not to vaccinate.

Macron's attitude is exclude the non-vaccinated minority from gathering points because they're the ones who'll overload the hospitals, not the vaccinated majority. If they won't vaccinate, make it harder for them to get Covid. As alluded earlier, this seems to be working, fewer non-vaccinated have caught Covid among the people I know, they've reduced their social activities because of the hassle and cost of constantly testing. A friend's son will shortly have to give up in a restaurant when the pass vaccinale comes into law, he's less likely to catch Covid sitting unemployed at home than in a busy restaurant so less likely to need a hospital bed.

I’m not an anti-vaxxer I’m happy to take my chances and if in time I’m not allowed in anywhere I’m good with that !!

Might well be comming to the UK, you can't go to a bar or restaurant in Spain at the moment if you are unvaccinated.

I personally know 4 people who haven’t had any jabs(no health issues)none have caught Covid.

But I know of at least 6 people who have all had at least 2 jabs and few also had booster have caught Covid twice 🤷‍♂️

Makes you wonder ?

Not this again.

Everyone I know that has been killed or seriously injured in a road accident was wearing a seatbelt. What conclusion do you draw from that?

I don’t know what messaging you’re getting in the UK but “Vaccine stopping transmission” hasn’t been a thing here for months, Delta put an end to that idea which has been replaced with “slowing transmission”.

Edukator
Free Member
I don’t know what messaging you’re getting in the UK but “Vaccine stopping transmission” hasn’t been a thing here for months, Delta put an end to that idea which has been replaced with “slowing transmission”.

The big argument for vacccination is keeping people out of hospital because when hospitals are full ski resorts have to close (you can’t run a ski resort without the capacity to fix broken people), people have to work from home, places people meet have to close… etc. There’s a huge economic and social cost to giving people the freedom not to vaccinate.

Macron’s attitude is exclude the non-vaccinated minority from gathering points because they’re the ones who’ll overload the hospitals, not the vaccinated majority. If they won’t vaccinate, make it harder for them to get Covid. As alluded earlier, this seems to be working, fewer non-vaccinated have caught Covid among the people I know, they’ve reduced their social activities because of the hassle and cost of constantly testing. A friend’s son will shortly have to give up in a restaurant when the pass vaccinale comes into law, he’s less likely to catch Covid sitting unemployed at home than in a busy restaurant so less likely to need a hospital bed.

How long do you maintain this underclass?

Not sure how vaccine passport work on the contingent, but no-one is interested in them here. You could show anything to most of the people that bothered to check them.

As long as necessary. April? Then bring it back in October if needed.

It's a QR code on paper or on your phone. False ones work fine unless checked by the Gendarmes who have the ability to cross-check with ID. You don't have to have an ID card but that's not really sensible because they can haul you off to the gendarmerie for the time it takes to check your identity if you don't have one.

Just find it mad you are comfortable with the concept of an actual underclass tbh.