I’ve had it with made up excuses for medical exemptions. It makes it tough for people who really do need them.
Pressure is building on Anti vaccers it seems. This Australia news, Italy now debating mandated vaccines for over 50s…
Can’t see uk ever going that far but how are people dealing with people they know who are refuseniks? I wouldn’t go as far as saying they’re close friends but when people I know come bounding up to us at our front door or table at the pub, I find it v hard to be pleased to see them. Interesting social dynamics for the future!
As an anti-Covid vaccine person I've lost one friend which makes me very sad. There's been a psychological operation carried out on the British public by their own Government and unfortunately you're a victim of that. Stop being terrified of unvaccinated people and understand that they have a right to their views and what they do with their own body.
No one is terrified of unvaccinated people. Patience is running out for those who can be vaccinated and choose not to be though.
I agree - we all have a right to our views and over our own body - however if you choose not to be vaccinated you are making choices that impact other people and they equally have the right to not want to be around you.
I'm not terrified of unvaccinated people, I just think they're stupid and selfish.
I'll quite happily defend someone's right to be stupid and selfish, but that still doesn't get away from what they are. Freedom of choice and all that.
They don't have a right to infect my body with a deadly virus because of selfish stupidity.
Sure, choose to not be vaccinated, but stay in your own house away from people who you could kill if they can't be vaccinated.
I'm not really bothered about people being against the vaccine.. doesn't upset me and wouldn't fall out with a friend about it.
Interesting to hear their reasons (quite varied) and if they want to we have a wee discussion about it where I try and make some pro-vaccination points.
In the end it's their personal choice and *mostly* just affects them. I don't see it as their defining characteristic in a way we might, considering the relentless focus on COVID for the last two years.
@cinnamon_girl Whilst I disagree with people not having the vaccine, I actually do agree that each individual human does have a right to say no to any medical or pharmaceutical intervention. My post was a comment on how increasing instances like the Australian news raise the debate and make for interesting social situations. I certainly haven't been duped by a
psychological operation carried out on the British public by their own Government
A degree in applied biology means that I understand and trust how peer reviewed science works. How much intense work has been, and is continuing to be done on the huge amount of data from around the world to ensure that the continuing use of vaccines as human medicines is safe. 100% risk free? No these things will never be that, but massively outweighed by the benefits to individuals, wider communities, the health systems and economies of the world? Absolutely yes. To the point where the risks personally of taking the vaccine are far smaller than other things we do in life, without thought (be interested to compare the stats on hospitalisation/death with mountain biking!). And so I'm more that happy to play my part by being fully vaccinated.
As mentioned by another poster, I have the right to not be overwhelmed with joy about the people who choose to ignore scientific expertise by not being vaccinated and yet still expect to enjoy the benefits of the community where they live. It's an interesting social conundrum.
Sure, choose to not be vaccinated, but stay in your own house away from people who you could kill if they can’t be vaccinated.
I think this sums it up for me. The few folk I know who have chosen not to have vaccine (some family, one or two old work colleagues) are also the people not wearing masks, refusing to lateral flow or PCR, happy to travel lots and visit as many gigs/shops/places other people are, even find ways of faking test results so that they can get on planes.
Fair enough to choose not to get a vaccine, your choice.
But the wide behaviour sucks when other people are at risk.
psychological operation carried out on the British public by their own Government
I do wonder if the likes of CG will every appreciate their ability to lead a relatively normal post pandemic life with a reasonably low risk to their own personal health is exclusively due to the vast majority of the population choosing to make the choice to be vaccinated. Sadly I suspect they won't.
I don't fear the unvaccinated, I pity them. But in the real world those who I know who have made that decision were flying the freak flag long before - this is just another manifestation.
Yep - 100% defend your right to choose. Life choices have consequences though. Inability to travel may well be one of those.
And calling people freaks doesn't really help either. Cinnamon Girl has been kind enough to engage with this subject and keep engaging, politely, so lets not get personal!
(Wildly hopeful speculation content)
We seem to be a couple of weeks into figures showing a scary rise in cases. We are also a few days, possibly a week, into a real slow down in cases.
We are also seeing ICU cases rise dramatically, yet not at the level of previous peaks.
This is not matched by deaths. If anything, we are seeing these reduce week upon week.
Therefore:
Are we about to see the top of this peak in the next week or so?
Will we see the ICU cases and overall numbers drop more quickly than previous peaks?
Am I just desperate for some normality and hoping we can start to move on in life, putting CV19 in the same box as normal winter issues?
One thing I will say about vax/novax discussion is that my GP and the NHS harassing me by text and email daily to get my booster from 2 months after getting my second jab is making me want to not get it. The continuous 'evidence suggests' 'follow advice' without any links to the evidence or data behind the advice is very alarming
Of course once it's time I'll search out the evidence myself and almost certainly get it but I can see how someone on the fence or already a bit against it would be alienated by this, and may not bother to look it up for themselves
I can't actually get it now because I've just got over COVID (took 3 days and a load of running, virtually no symptoms), and considering I now have the double jab and natural antibodies I'm not in a huge rush
Entirely peoples rights to choose, however if that results in you being a hazard to the rest of the population then there could be consequences (i know someone will go nuts on this statement, but for most issues there are laws and restrictions that indicate the consequence) with this one you could kill someone).
As for the psyops bs, yeah 20 years in virology, R&D, pharma manufacturing and now clinical trials has given me a decent bead on this virus and reasons to be concerned with the virus rather than the vaccine. I'm now triple jabbed and still where a really good mask (face fit and ffp2/3 depending if i have the vent blockers in).
And calling people freaks doesn’t really help either.
I think you know perfectly well what I mean by a 'freak flag'. - https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/freak_flag
Whatever anyone's views are on vaccinations this -
There’s been a psychological operation carried out on the British public by their own Government and unfortunately you’re a victim of that
is utter drivel I'm afraid.
I'm in no way terrified of unvaccinated people, I'm pissed off living through restrictions to protect a healthcare system that's on its arse due to a load of folk thinking they know better/it's a conspiracy/they're too young and fit/just plain ignorant.
An interesting article I read weeks ago suggested that boosted vaccination, plus illness with an escape variant, would provide very wide, strong protection.
We seem well on the way to a population exposure to omicron.
Of course once it’s time I’ll search out the evidence myself and almost certainly get it but I can see how someone on the fence or already a bit against it would be alienated by this, and may not bother to look it up for themselves
And yet are hugely vulnerable to repeated anti vax messaging on social media....go figure.
.....and more than that, leads to the purveyor being labelled as a nutter even if the rest of the argument is reasonable.
Which it is, yes, it's your choice but with choice comes consequence. And that consequence may be restricted access to travel, services, facilities, etc. to protect others.
So go ahead and choose, but drop the conspiracy theory crap, it labels you.
The problem with antivaxers is that they're putting so much pressure on hospitals measures have to be taken to restrict the whole population. Discos are still shut, you can't stand at a bar etc.. That is impacting people's livlihoods and mental health. With everybody vaccinated those measures wouldn't be necessary.
The anti-vaxers (still counted as friends) I know aren't indulging in any of the antisocial behaviour in Matts list, what they all do have in common is a passion for conspiracy theory bollocks and some bizzare views on pretty much any subject you chose - climate change, diet, EVs, alternative energy/wind farms. They grab a straw and hang onto it for grim death in a hurricane when sensible people hide in the stairwell of a concrete building, and get vaccinated.
One of them I feel sorry for, he contributes to society, is a good family man, then there's the "however": I'm one of the rare people who will still talk to him because he clutches the straw rather than seeking shelter. The result is inevitably conflict, conflictual banter with me but bitter arguments with most who then don't want anything more to do with him so he goes down a hole with the other conspiracy theory fans on the Net and slowly distances himself further from reality.
the disaster fappers will be here shortly…you can guess who.
nine hundred pages and two years later....
Edukator fleshes out the definition of a 'freak flag' perfectly. And to reiterate, most current anti vaxxers were flying it high and proud prior to March 2020.
They don’t have a right to infect my body with a deadly virus because of selfish stupidity.
Sure, choose to not be vaccinated, but stay in your own house away from people who you could kill if they can’t be vaccinated.
A triple vaccinated person can still infect you and ultimately then still kill someone - not that you'd ever know this - so going by your warped far right logic everyone should stay in their home as you might kill someone.
Hate speech like this is worse than covid by a million miles.
Newsflash - a vaccinated person isn't superior to someone who is not vaccinated. Not in anyway shape or form. If you believe you are then you've got major major issues.
A fair point Edukator - my sample size is 6 people in two families...so I should not tar all those who refuse vaccines with the same brush.
I don't think it is hate speech - it is a reasonable request to not inflict a higher risk / probability on others in society without their permission.
Yes, the vaccinated can pass on the virus, but much much less than unvaxxed.
So it becomes a mitigation of risk exercise, less likelihood of passing on the virus plus less chance of catching it by being vaccinated means less virus circulating in the population, the coronavirus vaccine is not as efficient as the smallpox vaccine sadly that induces sterile immunity.
Hey I'm fine with people not getting vaxxed but at the same time anyone should be able to see why everyone can get angry at a restriction on healthcare and the consequences of that on the general population.
A triple vaccinated person can still infect you and
ultimately
then still kill someone – not that you’d ever know this – so going by your warped far right logic everyone should stay in their home as you might kill someone.
Of course they can. The difference is that they have done everything possible to mitigate the possibility of doing so and consequently bear no culpability for the death.
Edukator
Free Member
The problem with antivaxers is that they’re putting so much pressure on hospitals measures have to be taken to restrict the whole population. Discos are still shut, you can’t stand at a bar etc.. That is impacting people’s livlihoods and mental health. With everybody vaccinated those measures wouldn’t be necessary.
Genuine question as I know they are a couple of very informed people on here, and I've stopped following this a while ago. Is that the case? If everyone was jabbed we'd be completely restriction free? For example, I'm jabbed and I not only caught COVID but also gave it to my mrs
We might not be restriction free but the levels of infection in the general population should be a lot lot lower, as a result the risk of damage to the nhs etc should be acceptable.
We will never reach a point of eradication, so it comes down to a general acceptance of the damage we can tolerate against the freedom we have. Vaccinations move the dial to reduce the consequence level.
they have a right to their views and what they do with their own body.
With rights come responsibilities. In this case the chief responsibility being to avoid having to be admitted to hospital putting more pressure on the NHS.
Hate speech? Bollocks, it's robust truth telling.
A triple vaccinated person can still infect you and ultimately then still kill someone – not that you’d ever know this – so going by your warped far right logic everyone should stay in their home as you might kill someone.
Equally, someone could drive within the speed limit, have an accident and kill someone. Do we do away with speed limits then? No, we keep them as a means of mitigating the risk to society's benefit. Do we mandate 10mph and a red flag in front of each car - no, there is a level of risk we are willing to accept for the benefits.
We might not be restriction free but the levels of infection in the general population should be a lot lot lower, as a result the risk of damage to the nhs etc should be acceptable.
We will never reach a point of eradication, so it comes down to a general acceptance of the damage we can tolerate against the freedom we have. Vaccinations move the dial to reduce the consequence level.
Of course that means it would be better, but restriction free seems optimistic. I suppose if we were all vaxed, there would be less restrictions, we'd all catch it quicker, not be too ill and that would be it. As it stands 1 in 5 people in the UK have had it, what's the figure for some kind of 'herd immunity'? 50%ish?
No idea what the herd immunity level could be, but it is only valid until we get another variant.
Omicron seems to cause less damage, but it could just as easily have gone the other way and been more damaging (as we saw with delta).
Honestly i have no idea what the end game is here, personally am going with vaccinations and mask wearing for a long as i feel it is appropriate (which fit me well be much longer than the government defines).
I am still aware that i will get another dose at some point as we can't control any infections coming through the schools (everything else is up to us really)
I don’t think the refuseniks cogitate what it would be like if we all thought like them.
That and the fact they are lockdown enablers despite most being against restrictions.
We might not be restriction free but the levels of infection in the general population should be a lot lot lower, as a result the risk of damage to the nhs etc should be acceptable.
We will never reach a point of eradication, so it comes down to a general acceptance of the damage we can tolerate against the freedom we have. Vaccinations move the dial to reduce the consequence level.
To repeat what I posted in this thread before Christmas - my sister works at Guys in London. In that entire trust the only ITU beds taken up by covid cases were unvaccinated patients. There is a trickle down as the ITU beds get full on the general wards with elective surgery cancelled. That is a real and measurable consequence of the action of a minority to make a choice to their body. Unless of course they were prepared to backup their position by signing away their rights to a critical care bed if the worst were to happen...
Ed covers my standpoint well.
Vaccinated may still catch and infect but their viral load should be lower than it was otherwise meaning the person they infect shouldn't get hit so hard.
Plenty of testimony from NHS that unvaccinated are consuming bed space far more than vaccinated. That has financial costs but more importantly there are people out there waiting for procedures that would make life far better for them that are being put off for the time being because healthcare systems are even more stretched than they normally would be.
nine hundred pages and two years later….
i made that comment.
at the time there were a couple of posters(one had a biomed degree or similar and thought they were gods gift to science) on other threads that seemed to be genuinely excited.
and since then, there has been a regular cohort on here who will find the cloud to every silver lining.
As people have opened up about their vaccination stutus (or it's become apparent when they've stopped going to their hospital job on the day non-vaccinated were bannished) I've reached my quota, nearly one in ten of people I know. Most were no surprise at all, as Convert notes with his use of "freak flag" (which I last heard some time around 1982 😉 ). Two surprises, hospital workers, and one with medical issues that sort of justify the choice.
These non-vaccinated have been at least as cautious as anyone else and most still haven't had Covid AFAIK, one that has was pretty ill for three weeks, had half a day in hospital and is slowly recovering, and is unrepentant.
i made that comment.
And I don't think anyone could criticise you for it, cos even the most fapperish of fappers could've predicted this shit off the back of it!*.
*MattOAA had a belter in the first Brexit post too! 🙂
This is not matched by deaths. If anything, we are seeing these reduce week upon week.
The 7 day average death numbers were noticeably up yesterday now the Christmas/New Year dust has settled.
I often wander with the anti-vaxxers who are apparently so concerned what goes into their body.. Is everything that they eat organic (or home grown) and cooked from scratch? Do they never have a take-away, or use a jar of pasta sauce to throw together a quick meal - if they do, do they 'research' each and every E-number and preservative to make sure it is safe for their body? Have they never smoked, drunk alcohol, or taken any form of recreational drug... ever.... ? ..Really?
A lot of diabetics wear medicalert bracelets/necklaces so that medical staff know they have an underlying condition. Will antivaxers start wearing one, just in case they end up in hospital (for whatever reason) so they can ensure that medical staff won't use medication on them to help make them better - after all - what is in that medication? My body, my choice etc... The medical school of facebook and youtube might not approve of the medicines safety.
Will they take painkillers if they hurt themselves, will they take cancer treatment etc etc.
Bunch of selfish attention seekers.
No convert I did not know what "freak flag" means, and as that link is blocked by my work computer - I still don't. I suspect Urban Dictionary archive after 50 years like a lot of people.
I suspect Urban Dictionary archive after 50 years like a lot of people.
You'll be happy to know the UD still thinks it's in common parlence then 😀
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=freak%20flag
CG is as good example as any of this. I remember vivid discussions here years ago about environmental issues where we were very much on the same side. But like when you are in an argument outside a pub at closing time and your mate keeps on makes ridiculous comments that are just getting the pair of you in increasingly hot water and you just want them to shut up so you can walk away unscathed, freak flag wavers don't always make the best allies in a discussion.
As it stands 1 in 5 people in the UK have had it,
Source for that figure? I thought it was estimated to be higher. The official case numbers are presumably a massive under-estimate due to the large number asymptomatic. ONS data seems to back that up.
