Masks are not a silver bullet.
Oh but they are! On the very same page in this thread as my last comment, someone shared a Guardian article claiming that masks are the "single most effective public health measure" and are "53% effective". I'm not sure where that leaves vaccines...
But they are low impact economically and socially
Economically maybe. I do worry about their effect on young children. After all, every schoolchild can tell you about the story of the chick that saw a human after it first hatched and became imprinted with their face. How much social developmental harm are we doing, by forcing young children to have the majority of their experiences of other's faces, with those faces covered by masks?
particularly when propelled with more force ie coughing/sneezing.
To me, this is one of the silliest and grossest parts of the official mask narrative. How many people actually sneeze into their masks, and then continue about their business leaving it in place? It seems to me that it would be much more hygienic if we had some kind of disposable or washable cloth that we could temporarily apply over the face while sneezing, and dispose of appropriately when done.
While I was working in the NHS we only used PCR tests IIRC
They use both. I test at twice per week and have done for about a year now. Every single member of staff who tested positive on a LFT in our trust has been positive on a PCR. LFT report more false negatives than positives.
I've a few anti Vax customers but loads of anti mask.... I'm assuming that they all will have developed exemption illnesses In the last few months...
Drac - its the false negatives on LFTs that concern me. I retired in march but we had not used LFTs up till then. dunno if thats a trust or country thing or just timing or the area I was in. We didn't test any staff on my ward
But as above - I may be ill informed on this
After all, every schoolchild can tell you about the story of the chick that saw a human after it first hatched and became imprinted with their face. How much social developmental harm are we doing, by forcing young children to have the majority of their experiences of other’s faces, with those faces covered by masks?
Pretty sure the sight of Grandma on a ventilator is more damaging to a young child.
And who TF would inflict that on their child? (Saying that, probably the same people that would tell their kids they might have killed grandma). FWIW, I lost at least one grandparent as a young child (as I am sure, most people have).
Travel restrictions only make a difference if the number of imported cases would be comparable to the number of locally-generated ones. Sorry but that ship sailed a while back. Anyone who believes otherwise, I have a special offer on a bridge you might be interested in buying.
I have a special offer on a bridge you might be interested in buying.
Well you clearly think that there are travel restrictions, despite the fact that there doesn't appear to be any, so I can't say that I would trust your judgement on what constitutes a "special offer".
ernie, travel restrictions which are now in force -
Travel restrictions have been put in place on travellers arriving in the UK from South Africa. British and Irish citizens, and third country nationals with residence rights in the UK, are allowed to enter the UK but must follow rules for people arriving from
red-listed countries. The following categories are also still permitted to enter the UK from South Africa, subject to quarantine and immigration controls:- Holders of Indefinite Leave to Remain
- Holders of existing leave to enter or remain (i.e. those with a valid Biometric Residence Permit) or an entry clearance/visa that grants such leave, e.g. students, workers, etc (excluding visit visas)
- Holders of EU Settlement Scheme (“EUSS”) status
- Those with a valid pending EUSS application (evidenced by a certificate of application) – those who have applied as a joining family member must also hold a UK-issued Biometric Residence Card, an EUSS Family Permit or an EEA Family Permit, even if this document has since expired
- Holders of an EUSS Family Permit or an EUSS Travel Permit
- Holders of a Frontier Worker Permit
- Those who are transiting through England
- Those exempt from immigration control
- Those who have transited South Africa without entering the countryOther travellers are likely to be denied entry if they have been in South Africa within the past 10 day, unless there are compelling or compassionate reasons for your journey or you are covered by a relevant exemption under the health regulations governing travel to the UK.
I retired in march but we had not used LFTs up till then. dunno if thats a trust or country thing or just timing or the area I was in. We didn’t test any staff on my ward
Local NHS staff do LFTs twice per week.
Double post
ernie, travel restrictions which are now in force –
I understood that was a temporary ban on flights from southern Africa which was lifted at 4am this morning
"We are not going to stop people travelling, I want to stress that, we’re not going to stop people travelling, but we will require anyone who enters the UK to take a PCR test by the end of the second day after their arrival, and to self-isolate until they have a negative result."
How much social developmental harm are we doing, by forcing young children to have the majority of their experiences of other’s faces, with those faces covered by masks?
Difficult to gauge I imagine. However my partner is the head of a large primary. 30% of her staff were off ill, isolating, or looking after their own sick or isolating children on Friday. Anyone who's too f'in precious to put a piece of cloth over their face for 5 minutes at a time while they shop, or go on the bus, needs to have a bloody word with themselves, or visit their local hospital, or heaven forbid call for an ambulance for a loved one. And wait, and wait, and wait. Hope it's not serious.
As for those who are STILL going in to the office while ill have we learned nothing in the past 2 years? FFS.
ernie, your johnson quote refers to travel generally.
The specific restrictions on SA travel were implemented at 4am today; direct flights to UK banned until further notice.
My quote above is from gov.uk website as at earlier today.
So, Sunday night is LFT night Chez Morecash....
Mine was negative, daughter positive, so PCRs booked for 9.30 tomorrow. None of us have any symptoms.
Desperately hoping I'm negative as we need to bring eldest - and the contents of his flat - back from uni next weekend as it's an early finish for Christmas.
As for those who are STILL going in to the office while ill have we learned nothing in the past 2 years? FFS
Try working in a college in mid cold/ snot season.
Having to sit near an sniffing/ coughing sneezing student(s) then use their computer mouse when you need to demonstrate something almost retching.🤢
Fortunately am fully jabbed, not against colds though, but have taken to wiping hands straight after with the wipes in the classrooms (though those are running out)
The specific restrictions on SA travel were implemented at 4am today; direct flights to UK banned until further notice.
My quote above is from gov.uk website as at earlier today.
This is the latest update on the UK government website :
If you arrived in England between midday 26 November and 4am 28 November and have been in any of the following countries in the previous 10 days, you must quarantine at home, or at alternative appropriate accommodation:
South Africa
Botswana
Eswatini
Lesotho
Namibia
Zimbabwe
Quarantine applies to you and your household, or whoever you are staying with.NHS Test and Trace services will contact you to issue your free COVID-19 PCR tests to be taken on day 2 and day 8.
If you arrived in England from any of these countries after 4am 28 November, you must follow standard red list rules. This means you must quarantine in a managed hotel, and take 2 COVID-19 tests.
Note the last paragraph.
Ernie are you just playing the pedant over whether you consider 10 days in a hotel at a cost of over 2 grand to be a “restriction” or did you have a point?
So you are admitting that there is not a ban on traveling from South Africa because of Omicron. Jolly good.
Yes there are restrictions, there are always restrictions, eg passport/ visa required etc, it does not mean that there is a travel ban.
There will be restrictions on public transport tomorrow, you will have to wear a face covering, it doesn't mean traveling isn't allowed.
If you are unhappy with the restrictions then that is another matter. Obviously you are. Although you do not appear able to provide a coherent explanation as to why you reject sensible precautions.
So you are admitting that...
Oh great, ernie's brought his mad skillz over.
This is sure to enhance the tone of this thread elevenfold.
*pictures from the scene just in* ernie composes his retort -
Oh well, it was good while it lasted.
Thanks all.
I never said there was a travel ban
30% of her staff were off ill, isolating, or looking after their own sick or isolating children on Friday.
I wonder if we will ever be able to know how many people sent home to "isolate" were actually ill with Covid. In my own subjective experience of those I know who have had to isolate, I would guess the number is less than 10%. Now that we are all terrified of the slightest rise in temperature or a cough, several times my wife and I have had to pick up our perfectly healthy kids from nursery (and at considerable disruption to our ability to hold down a job).
or heaven forbid call for an ambulance for a loved one. And wait, and wait, and wait. Hope it’s not serious.
I know. Our health service has basically collapsed anyway, despite the numbers of Covid patients being very low. You can't be telling me that the single-digit percentage of Covid patients currently in hospital (I just checked, it's 6% of total occupied beds) has caused the collapse of the ambulance service? (Or, for that matter, the disappearance of many forms of community care and other non-essential health services. I can tell you that post-natal visits and the like have basically stopped - I dread to think of the horrors that will be eventually revealed due to this). A close relative works for the ambulance service, and they say it's heart-breaking to have to tell people that an ambulance is on the way when they know perfectly well that there isn't. The causes are complex, but certainly not because the ambulances are currently all full rushing Covid-infected people to hospital.
You can’t be telling me that the single-digit percentage of Covid patients currently in hospital (I just checked, it’s 6% of total occupied beds) has caused the collapse of the ambulance service? (Or, for that matter, the disappearance of many forms of community care and other non-essential health services. I can tell you that post-natal visits and the like have basically stopped – I dread to think of the horrors that will be eventually revealed due to this). A close relative works for the ambulance service, and they say it’s heart-breaking to have to tell people that an ambulance is on the way when they know perfectly well that there isn’t. The causes are complex, but certainly not because the ambulances are currently all full rushing Covid-infected people to hospital.
It's not about the number of current Covid cases, it's the backlog left from the last 18 months of restricted services, the complete lack of social care places available and the fact that staff are mentally destroyed so leaving in droves that's the main issue. The small number of Covid cases currently ending up in hospital is more than enough to push the system over the edge, hence ambulances waiting for hours to unload. This winter is going to be hell for the NHS regardless, the least we can do is not add to it.
Well, that time is getting closer. The time when we get COVID.
Workmate of my girlfriend called us on Sunday to say she was symptomatic and testing positive by PCR on Sunday after a negative LFT on Friday. She had apparently been in contact with someone on Tuesday that had later tested positive.
A quick-test this morning showed negative, so either we avoided it again, or it is too early to show up on the test. GF is going in to her office and will test again tomorrow (she has to go in) and I am staying at home and working remotely. Even double jabbed, this is a lot of stress.
It’s not about the number of current Covid cases, it’s the backlog left from the last 18 months of restricted services, the complete lack of social care places available and the fact that staff are mentally destroyed so leaving in droves that’s the main issue.
You're right, it's not Covid causing this problem. And, how else will we ever get out of this destructive cycle, except by releasing the strictures the NHS has placed itself under, and resume all of the "non-essential" healthcare services? It's pretty well-known that, due to the ongoing lack of care services, the only option is to wait until you have to go to A+E, where you end up presenting with a basket case of health problems that creates a huge single point of load.
Talking of burdens on the NHS - how much is caused by our current obligation to demand medical intervention, if you happen to have certain minor symptoms? (eg, testing or a doctor's visit, if you want to return to work / have your kids go back to school), or by parents now so terrified of disease that they bang on the doors of the NHS at every sniffle, or even by previously minor diseases now causing severe health problems due to our collective reduction in a healthy immune system? Every parent I know has experienced at least one combination of the above, and not one of them actually had Covid. That adds up to a new, huge and un-necessary burden on the NHS.
Sat on a train - despite people having to wear masks as of tomorrow, and the fact there is an increasing risk of catching Covid due to the new variant, barely anyone is wearing a mask. I just don’t get it? Do people want to get it or something?
So I've just tested positive and so have 3 of my kids, 1 is asymptomatic.
I had it back in Jan and had quite mild symptoms, I'd say that now I have the worst flu I've ever had, if this is new variant it doesn't seem mild!
I'm double jabbed so I'd guess it is omicron
I get the train into London every day and I'm in the minority wearing a mask
just checked, it’s 6% of total occupied beds)
I dont think you're appreciating just how stretched NHS is in a normal winter, I collect tumours from cancer ops and every winter urgent ops are cancelled due to itu bed shortage
At the moment it's particularly bad, it's not just covid, acute staff shortages especially in diagnostics in pathology and social care shambles bed blocking, but covid on top of all that is a nightmare
It's more likely to be Delta right now. You can still catch it after two jabs, and get 'moderately' ill if you are unlucky, the main benefit of the jabs is to stop you from needing hospitalisation (or worse). If you are on the train with lots of unmasked people, it's also possible that you received a larger infectious dose.
When did you have your second jab? Possibly your immunity is starting to tail off.
I dont think you’re appreciating just how stretched NHS is in a normal winter
Absolutely, and it's not just a numbers game, all sorts of stuff going on, Mrs was working in stroke rehab ward for 6 months, it's reaming full, as most of the patients have zero potential for rehab, but there's no care home space available.
Tbh I dunno if I'd take the published numbers as gospel anyway
When did you have your second jab? Possibly your immunity is starting to tail off.
End of June, so right on the 5 months, I'm over 40 & went to book booster but told gp would contact to arrange
As I understand it unlikely pcr will able to detect omicron as it won't see s-drop out?
It’s more likely to be Delta right now. You can still catch it after two jabs, and get ‘moderately’ ill if you are unlucky, the main benefit of the jabs is to stop you from needing hospitalisation (or worse)
Spot on. I caught it back in August and was double jabbed, I really didn't feel great for about a week then for a few months afterwards still didn't feel just quite right. Horrible virus.
Some of our surgical wards are full of medical (elderly) patients. Many are awaiting discharge with nowhere to be discharged to because of the lack of care home beds (staff).
A lot of elective work has been delayed and we have limited capacity to admit via A&E which manifests in the queues of ambulances that we are getting to used to seeing.
It seems to me that the main issue is not patients with Covid, but the state of things now that all sorts of Covid guidelines and procedures (including Covid isolation-related staffing issues). In fact, this is exactly what I said in my last comment (and practically every other comment I've made on the topic).
Surely we need all of those procedures in place, to protect everyone from Covid, and all of these side effects (patients can't be discharged due to non-existent community care, no GP service so people wait until they have multiple and severe issues before going to A+E, experienced staff burning out under absurd working conditions or being reassigned to Covid roles, new parents who have never had a post-natal health visit and now with sniffly and coughing babies taking NHS resources because they have absolutely no experience with what a normal illness looks like, etc etc) are just necessary consequences that we need to live with?
Or, is Covid not the absolute worst (by which I mean, we can tolerate some extra risk, and address some of the other issues we currently face with our healthcare system)?
I’m over 40 & went to book booster but told gp would contact to arrange
Were you told that by the surgery? I wouldn't rely on that as something which will happen in a timely way.
I'm not entirely sure how the NHS is going to deliver these 2m boosters a week that the politicians are promising. A lot of the infrastructure which rolled out 1st and 2nd doses at that level is no longer operating in my area, the burden has been placed back on practices and pharmacies which have a ton of competing priorities.
Trying to book one at the moment throws up dates in January or beyond, I think, and I can't see that improving once they throw it open to 20s and 30s.
Were you told that by the surgery? I wouldn’t rely on that as something which will happen in a timely way.
That's what I get when I try & book online, says not eligible
It seems to me that the main issue is not patients with Covid, but the state of things now that all sorts of Covid guidelines and procedures (including Covid isolation-related staffing issues). In fact, this is exactly what I said in my last comment (and practically every other comment I’ve made on the topic).
The main issue is always patients with Covid, or the threat covid poses to the other vulnerable people in the care of NHS hospitals. As soon as you have to treat even a handful of very sick people with an infection that poses a threat to the other extremely vulnerable people in your care, your capacity is massively affected. You can't put them in beds next to other patients, you can't expose those other patients to staff who may have it. Then you pull staff from other clinics and wards, you stop admitting some people who otherwise would have received hospital care. Their outcomes potentially worsen. The estimate of excess deaths in the UK not from covid is now in the tens of thousands.
As the number of covid sick in hospital increases, the knock-on to other sick people is far greater.
This is why even marginally effective measures such as mask-wearing are a no-brainer. Let's use the post up there as an example. If a train journey is a source of transmission, how many others received the same dose as him? How many have unknowingly and unavoidably passed it to family or friends? As the numbers tot up, the chances of hitting a vulnerable or unvaccinated person, or breaking through vaccine protection increase too. Every person who crosses the threshold of a hospital with a serious covid infection has a disproportionately large effect on the capacity of the NHS to offer care to others.
That’s what I get when I try & book online, says not eligible
It's academic for you now, I guess, you need to wait four weeks post positive PCR to receive a booster anyhow, by which time you will definitely be eligible. Hope you're feeling better soon.
I’m not entirely sure how the NHS is going to deliver these 2m boosters a week that the politicians are promising.
I believe that they are currently exceeding that amount. On Saturday, which is the latest available figure, 450,480 received either a booster or third jab.
On the day I received my booster a couple of weeks ago over half a million were delivered, but generally it appears to be over a third of a million a day.
Which I understand is the principal reason for wanting as much as possible to slow down the inevitable spread of Omicron - to minimise hospitalisations.
I'm pretty certain PCRs still pick up Omicron? Its just 1 of the 3 genes not detected.
Yeah I suppose it depends what reactions they include in the test
According to (famed molecular biologist 😉) Peston most won't
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1465019316726808576?t=znPfkDpasN-nnXsp0RINvw&s=19
I believe that they are currently exceeding that amount.
Ah, cool, didn't realise they were back up at that level. Hopefully uptake will be decent in the lower age groups.
There are loads of trained vaccinators currently not working due to centre closures.
Anybody working in the NHS Covid centres is also limited where they can work. I was taken on by The Sussex Community NHS Trust, after my training through NHS professionals. The 2 centres I worked at shut down, and my closest is 90 minutes drive away, and I would also have to pay for 8 hrs central Brighton parking.
There are lots near me, but either pharmacy run, or different trusts, so I can't work at those.
the threat covid poses to the other vulnerable people in the care of NHS hospitals
So the former of my two options - that is, all care needs to be designed around minimising the theoretical risk of transmitting Covid, and despite the fact that Covid-presenting patients currently represent far from the greatest public health need, as well as the fact that most people (and practically everyone who is at increased risk) are vaccinated.
In that case, we should rename it the "NCS" (National Covid Service), and urgently seek out another healthcare provider for everything else.
My issue with this approach is that not only does it ignore current health needs, it is counter-productive to its own goals. That is, the numerous and severe side effects (compounded health needs due to deferred healthcare, excess staff stress and burnout, etc etc) directly cause the very thing we are trying to prevent - an extra burden on the NHS.
As for mask-wearing - if that was all it took to ease the load on the NHS, then Wales should be a shining example of how well that works. After all, we've had a mask mandate since September 2020. As it is, the Welsh NHS is in such a shocking state that we are at risk of uncontrolled home births.
So you're suggesting creating an entirely separate care system for covid 🙄
And no one says that masks are all it takes
Just that they help and as they are minimal hassle you'd have to be massively selfish not to wear one
