The worst thing that will come out of the pandemic is the myopic fixation on how the vaccine benefits the individual.
That's probably indicative of one party's ideology being built round of the individual is a burden on society.
No doubt we'll get a telling off about vaccine myopia from the PM at some point.
Except it does benefit the individual. It's a degree of protection against future infection. Whether you're 12 or twelfty. I agree that the old fashioned way carries lower risk for the young than the old but protection by vaccination is very valuable also and the old fashioned way is not risk free. Yes vaccination carries risk, mostly for young males after second jab, which is why we're giving one jab only to 12- 16s.
Kelvin, I hope things go the right way for you soon. All the best.
The problem is:
1. Pfizer is licensed as a 2 dose vaccination.
2. 1 dose gives very low protection against Delta
3. Travel is going to require 2 doses.
Making it up as we go along again.
2. 1 dose gives very low protection against Delta
Perhaps they are gambling that this age group will produce a more robust immune response from a single dose? Either way, the fact that the risk is deemed unjustifiable for a second dose shows how finely balanced this decision is. I'm not sure what message it sends out to parents that only the first dose is possible.
As for travel, I think under 18s do not require 2x jab to be allowed to travel.
Making it up as we go along again.
Of course. Policy by populism and convenience.
"In France proof of infection between 12 days and six months ago gets you a pass sanitaire QR code and is considered as good as vaccination."
@Edukator Do you happen to know if this is true in the whole shengen area or just France? I.e does your French app QR code work in for instance The Netherlands and vice versa?
Perhaps they are gambling that this age group will produce a more robust immune response from a single dose?
Which is the wrong approach and why we have clinical trials and approvals. They got lucky extending the period between vaccines to 12 weeks, it wasn't part of the trial and could have backfired spectacularly. Feels like they are doing the same with a single dose, can't imagine we'll get lucky twice. The only reliable, ethically derived information we have on efficacy is from the double dose trials and subsequent roll out based on use approval. Single dosing teens is effectively carrying out clinical trials on the fly which is highly unethical.
They haven't specifically said teens will only get 1 dose, they just haven't said anything about a second dose yet. I was led to believe they are waiting for more data.
As always, the issue is any comms vacuum will be filled by someone else - giving a space for the "Anti's" to fill.
"Single dosing teens is effectively carrying out clinical trials on the fly which is highly unethical."
So surely even less reason to vaccinate a teen if they stand little chance of a follow up dose in a timespan that will increase the protection as the designers intended?
Having said that, my single dosed 17 yr old was the only person in our household who didn't catch the virus a few weeks ago, despite much closer contact with her sister than us as they were camping together when she went down with her first symptoms!
Its hard to get a second dose if you haven't had the first!!!
Obviously.
But if you dose a teen on day one and the next dose isn't available till 3-6 months down the line, but then they are doing double doses 10-12 weeks apart then who is in the best position? The teen who has the doses 6 months apart or the one that waited and then had the two dose at the correct spacing. Especially if the teen has just had covid....
Id suggest Covid + 1 dose is similar to a 2 dose regime, which I think is what the French are doing. 2 different doses has long been thought to produce a better response than 2 of the same - it just wasn't what was trialled.
yeeeeeees.
The ethical issue with the one dose approach is that the risk/benefit is based on the assumption of two doses. If you single dose, are you getting 90% of the injection reactions, but only 50% of the protection?
We don't know, nobody knows - that's why you do trials. Or more accurately - why you don't inject hundreds of thousands of kids with a vaccine used in a way contrary to the data and license you have.
Unfortunately, the reason that they are giving a single dose only (I suspect) is that they don't have enough doses to double-jab everybody, and there will be uproar if 50% of kids get the vaccine, and 50% don't. Better (in their view) to half-ass the whole thing, than whole-ass 50% of it
If you single dose, are you getting 90% of the injection reactions, but only 50% of the protection?
Not according to their data, quite the reverse, you are getting most of the protection for a much lower risk of side effects, hence the strategy.
If they have the data - submit it for review and get approval for the approach. We can push these approvals through extremely quickly when it's needed (a matter of days)
We shouldn't be going off-label for this many people as a matter of policy.
If you single dose, are you getting 90% of the injection reactions, but only 50% of the protection?
Their limited data suggests that bad reactions are much more common in children following second dose, hence giving only one. Efficacy of only one dose in this age group isn't fully clear, but very likely not as good at interrupting transmission, or reducing the severity of illness.
So the value of vaccinating one child in terms of stopping spread is not as great as vaccinating an adult with two doses, although you could argue that that one child is more likely to be mixing in close quarters with lots of others, so that might compensate overall, as you're directly targeting the spreaders sitting in a room with 35 others every single day.
Has anyone any data on how other respiratory infections (flu, rhinovirus etc etc) are going this autumn? Single data point here, my 1 year old has been in hospital ( a+e by us then admitted 1st time, sent to a+e by gp with full blues and twos second time) with bronchiolitis in the last month. A+e doc commented they don't usually see it until much later in winter but had already seen significant case numbers at a+e.
Not sure if that's related to lockdown last year as my limited research says it can be caught several times a year (as we've found) and hence would there ever be any herd immunity?
I think all bets are off with regards to timing of seasonal flu/rhinovirus etc. Anti-covid measures, lockdowns and home schooling have been very effective at suppressing the normal timing of circulation of all sorts of viruses.
There are lots of different strains of 'cold' viruses, including other coronaviruses. Humans become progressively more immune to strains every time they encounter them, but they are constanting mutating, and immunity tends to wane over time. Over your lifetime, you will encounter these viruses many, many times and each time acquire a bit more immunity to them. The reason Covid is so unpleasant is because it is completely novel, your immune system has no 'memory' of something similar to fall back on.
My youngest has stopped coughing! Feel like throwing a party.
🌞
We need to be careful with the "cold" thing... we adults in this house have a FILTHY cold... my other half had a negative PCR, so pretty damn sure it is just a cold. I know others that had a bad cold, lots of negative LFTs but then had positive PCRs. So it might be that some of the "there are some awful colds going around at the moment" (and there are) is actually misreporting... if relying on LFTs... a hell of a lot of people are exposed to coronavirus right now.
Thank you @Del.
Useful perspective from over there @Edukator, thank you. I am erring towards aiming for just before the xmas break for first jab for our kid (10+ weeks), now they've been infected, rather than ASAP (4+ weeks), if the GP will allow it. Also need to find out what the Flu vaccine advice is... I think that's a month after Covid19, not sure.
Great news Kelvin, let's hope he quickly recovers fully.
Feel like throwing a
partysuperspreader event.
🙂
That's good news. Having a sick kid makes you feel so powerless.
Also need to find out what the Flu vaccine advice is… I think that’s a month after Covid19, not sure.
At my vaccination ( covid booster) a couple of weeks ago they said there's no reason they can't be same day, and said some clinics are doing that - one in each arm. Wasn't offered at the time where I was, but need to get my flu done soon so will check again when they do that and report back.
This round of Covid is presenting very much like a cold and not so much like flu.
It also seems very resistant to positive tests...
After my daughter got it (cold symptoms) and I caught it off her (cold symptoms) my wife went down with a cold. We knew it had to be Covid becuase she literally hadn't been anywhere but she tested negaitive on 3 or 4 LTFs over several days and 1 PCR. Then the next day when she had had symptoms for 2or 3 days - boom positive LTF and then a PCR to back it up.
Hi Winston. I can't find anything to confirm validity of a French QR code based on a positive test between 12 days and 6 months in Shengen. On the contrary some countries require proof of infection and at least one jab but won't accept proof of infection only. Others require a recent PCR/ lateral flow test in addition. Each country is free to fix it's own rules depending on the risks.
The EU QR codes contain all of your infection, test and vaccination data with dates so I assume the code readers in each country apply that country's rules.
Hi @Kelvin. Glad to hear your boy is on the mend. Did you manage to keep out of hospital? I spoke to my GP about my son and their original guidance was Flu and Covid jabs 2 weeks apart. I asked as my son originally had a flu jab lined up then we got the call about the Covid jab with a date 2 days after the flu one. They just said that the guidance now was 48 hours. Haven't read that anywhere and I wasn't prepared to dump two lots of viral load on him in 48 hours so we sacked off the flu jab and will rebook that. Apart from a sore arm for a few hours, he's been absolutely fine (Pfizer jab).
Yes, kept out of hospital. To much relief. We’ve been in with viruses before when they were younger, but we know a lot more now, and I’ve been monitoring and adjusting constantly the whole time. Big thing is lots more insulin is needed, but importantly, unlike when normally running very high, you’ve got to keep taking on lots of carbs.
Will look into flu “jab”. Hopefully fit it in between end of infection and before Covid jab, while being nowhere near either. Glad you’ve got the first Covid jab sorted. Has to be better than risking infection before any protection… I can’t recommend that at all. It’s been dreadful.
Really glad to read the good news kelvin!
@neilnevill... Sorry to hear what you are currently going through with your little'un mate. Hope things improve asap.
On an entirely separate note, this is what you get when a pandemic gets politicised, polluted with antivax poison and people "do their own research"... added into genuine heartfelt concern for your and others children.
"Masks on kids/ vaccinating them is rape"
Sorry to hear about your little one neilnevil.
Warnings on RSV earlier this year… expected to start sooner and effect more kids…
Torygraph reporting that government is likely to end most free lateral flow and pcr tests apart from on high risk areas such as care homes etc.
Ffs
BBC News - Covid: The UK is Europe's virus hotspot - does it matter?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58849024
a self-appointed group of experts
That loaded description jumped out to me.
It's not even close!
I've just about lost my patience with this government making such a piss poor job of everything
Torygraph reporting that government is likely to end most free lateral flow and pcr tests apart from on high risk areas such as care homes etc.
If you don't test for it then it becomes much easier to ignore. It gets rid of the need to isolate so people can just carry on going to work if they're not actually unwell and kids can stay in school. It screws those who can't or won't get vaccinated but it was always just going to be a matter of time before things basically returned to normal.
It’s not even close!
BBC trying to justify it so that it doesn't look like the result of stunningly incompetent governance.
If you don’t test for it then it becomes much easier to ignore.
Better get the open-top bus warmed up for the Boris 'we beat covid' victory tour. No doomsters and gloomsters allowed on board.
Will they stop people being tested for it as they get admitted to hospital, too?
Will they stop people being tested for it as they get admitted to hospital, too?
Probably not but if the hospital numbers stay close to the current level most people just won't care.
16 year old went to get her 2nd vaccination today and was told they aren’t doing them due to the risk of myocarditis, was this the guidance 8 weeks ago? I thought they were doing double vaccinations for anyone over 16 and the single dose was 12-15 years olds? Good chance I’m not remembering right but it seems fairly retarded they’d tell and allow her to book her second dose……
That does sound odd. Could they not have contacted her to say it was cancelled?
Back to that BBC article… The Guardian featured the same two people who were part of the “self appointed group or experts” as described by the BBC (why not just say independent) but gave some context as to their roles and expertise…
Christina Pagel is director of UCL’s Clinical Operational Research Unit, which applies advanced analytical methods to problems in healthcare. Martin McKee is professor of European public health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/07/england-vaccine-just-plus-europe-covid
Kelvin, you must be so relieved that your son is making a recovery :0)
Interesting to hear Dr. Chris Smith (the naked scientist), saying that many people are testing positive using the LF tests, then negative on a PCR. His answer is that there is a bad cold going around (as mentioned above), which is a type of CV and is being picked up by the LF test, but isn't actually Delta virus. He stressed to trust the PCR test for a better result.
Let's hope these people with the bad colds and flu still keep away for others, as having any kind of virus, cold or flu lowers the immune system, leaving it open for catching something else at the same time, possible ending up in hospital.
Was sad to see the queue outside out little independent local cinema, with no mask wearing and no distancing. I'm guessing there isn't much ventilation in the building once inside.
Did anyone else see this report of anti vaxxers intimidation of a teenage girl in Wales? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58856068
That’s a depressing story. Also wary that the BBC close the article with the JCVI conclusions without any comment about how opaque they still are. When they explain the data they used, and the assumptions made, then we can interpret their findings. Also, the teen involved has long term health effects but avoided admission to hospital, exactly the kind of health outcome ignored by those JCVI conclusions shown.
Interesting to hear Dr. Chris Smith (the naked scientist), saying that many people are testing positive using the LF tests, then negative on a PCR.
The explanation on TV in these parts of that is that if you follow up a better than 99% reliable positive LF positive tests with a PCR test that gives 10-20% of false neagtives you'll get exactly that proportion of positive LF followed by negative PCRs. The wisdom is that if you test positive on LF you've got Covid and there's not much point doing a PCR.
https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/how-likely-positive-lateral-flow-test-covid-19-be-wrong
LF tests aren't very sensitive and give lots of false negatives but if they do give a positive result you can be pretty certain you've got Covid.
Edukator - Dr. Chris Smith was talking about this 'new cold virus' that is going around which has symptoms similar to C19, as the cold itself is being picked up by the sensitive LF test, due to the cold itself being a coronavirus. He stressed that the pcr test is more likely to give the correct result.
I personally would stay away from others atm with a cold or anything similar. Neighbours of ours have already has flu and they're in their 40's.
