required everywhere except lessons,
This I have never understood. All the evidence points to prolonged exposure indoors being the problem and the classroom is the place in schools where this happens.
Out of school activities are an issue, the rugby club was a vector amongst Madame's pupils. But the numbers involved were limited. A school of 600+ with no evidence of in-school infection is an anecdote I find hard to ignore given the level of infection in places the kids take part in activities without masks.
We'll soon find out how effective the masks have been as in departements with fewer than 50/100 000 cases they won't be obligatory in a few days time. If cases rise in schools there will only be one change to explain it, the end of mask wearing.
If anyone is interesested to read the argument from both sides here with Google translate:
Is it the case that the school (12-15yo) vax program has not really got going yet?
Is it the case that the school (12-15yo) vax program has not really got going yet?
Think daughters school start in couple of weeks. Though quite a few might not be able to have it due to recent infection
No, nothing like flu. When where 100 people a day dying from flu in the UK for months on end?
Often Flu season deaths include those that died from pneumonia and a "bad season" can see 30k lost over a season that is what, 4-6 months.
Can't help but think you responded more with emotion and frustration there, which is understandable as a consequence of "new normal" is elevated risks to, in particular, the most vulnerable. Which can easily include people close to yourself as it does me.
Is it the case that the school (12-15yo) vax program has not really got going yet?
My daughters (13 and 15) are being vaccinated at school tomorrow.
Hoping for some advice. My daughter's school have sent dates for when the covid jabs will be done, this has triggered scaremongering from some of her mates. Fortunately she's pretty clued up but some of the rumours (potential for infertility) obvs have her concerned.
I've been able to put her mind at ease with most questions but the one I'm struggling with is "How can we know the long term effects?".
Anyone able to help with answers please?
The way I would look it is… if the immune response to a mRNA vaccine was to have long term effects, then it is likely that an immune response to natural infection would as well. In fact, I’d go further, and suggest that the vaccine is likely to be far safer than infection as regards long term effects. Now, given the “new normal”, as someone just put it, everyone is likely to be exposed to infection this winter, including kids. So it’s not a choice between vaccination and nothing, it is a choice between being exposed to the virus unvaccinated or vaccinated. Although you’re lucky if you get to make that choice in the teen age group, many will catch the virus before they get a chance to be vaccinated. We took the choice away from many kids. I’m still angry about that, and it’s not just because I’m emotional because my kid was infected the same week the vaccination letter came through, read back through this thread and you’ll see I’ve been angrily pointing out this poor political choice made on our behalf for months now.
Long term effects - we can't know for sure due to lack of a time machine but we've got lots of experience of other vaccines that suggests there won't be any - link
As kelvin points out, we're all going to get COVID, we similarly don't know the long term effects of COVID (see lack of time machine) but we do know that the short term effects of COVID are less if you're vaccinated. A reasonable assumption would be that long term effects of COVID will be less if you've had a less severe infection, so vaccination should reduce the long term effects of COVID.
Thoughts are with you Kelvin. All the best to you and your family.
Down in Sussex the 12-15 programme has started, 2 schools per day, every day. We go as a team and do the whole school in a day.
My eldest 2 kids (11 & 12) have both tested positive this weekend. No real symptoms for the 11 year old, 12 year old currently having a bit of delirium and running a decent temp. Just waiting for the youngest to come down with it really. We're lucky that we have a reasonable sized house so we can keep everyone apart up to a point, but it's horrible feeling you have to keep away from your own kids 😞 Fingers crossed vaccine does it's bit for me and the Mrs!
We had it in our house last month. My 16 y/o kept herself separate & never tested positive.
The vaccine kept us protected so no more than a heavy cold.
Verses - the vaccine itself is only in your body for a few days. The rest is just the effects of your immune system reacting, which is far less against the vaccine than the real thing.
Verses – the vaccine itself is only in your body for a few days. The rest is just the effects of your immune system reacting, which is far less against the vaccine than the real thing.
Thanks, that's the sort of "straightforward to digest/explain" thing I was looking for.
@Kelvin, how's your lad getting on? Cough any better? I'll PM you later re: diabetes stuff. Thanks.
Cough worse, not better. And looking like a ghost. Still at home though. Ketones still under control. Thanks for asking. We're watching them closely. And thanks for your thoughts loum.
Poor bugger, hope he feels better soon.
Watch out for 'Restless Anus Syndrome', though.
Whats the current (medical not facebook) thinking on the delay between 12-15 yr olds getting covid and getting vaccinated?
I've googled a bit but nothing seems conclusive.
My 14yr old got a positive PCR test on 11th Sept and she is due to have the vaccine at school on 12th Oct. she was only mildly ill with it and appears to have made a quick and full recovery, though I realise nobody knows the long term effects of this nasty little virus.
What do you guys reckon?
To makes thisngs slightly more complicated we are going to Netherlands at half term to see family and they expect people over 12 to be vaccinated as most of their population is. She can enter the country but she might not be able to go in a public building if she isn't jabbed.
However her health comes first obviously so if it is best to leave it we will of course...
I haven't found a conclusive answer either. Going to ask the GP later this week, as we're in their system, not the at school one. Will let you know what they say.
I’ve not been in the vaccination centre for 6 weeks or so ( they have a new rule that flying crew can’t work for 10 days after any flight) but from memory you can’t have a jab within a month of a positive test.
Eldest was positive the week before his second jab in September. He had to wait a month before he could get the jab.
my 17yo was told a month too.
Only skim read this thread lately and missed a few posts!
Sorry to hear of your lads plight @kelvin. Hope he is over the hump of the illness soon bud.
Hmm, so the 7 day average figures on the news for hospitalisation and deaths appear to be dipping slightly, while infections are steady or rising slightly.
It's too early to be encouraged that the vaccine is working isn't it? These increased cases in schools are likely to kick it back up in a couple of weeks time?
Our case numbers are back down to where they were before schools started back MCTD.
My 13 year old had her vaccination just under 4 weeks after having COVID. Both girls are fine, no symptoms other than soreness at the site of the injection.
I’m pretty sure it’s a rule though that you can’t have it inside a month. It should be one of the questions asked by the HCPs.
My daughter had covid 2 months ago and I must admit I’m wavering on getting her jabbed.
The risk/benefit ratio of vaccination is quite different for kids. On balance I would have wanted her to have it if she hadn’t of caught covid, but I’m assuming her recent infection has given her similar levels of protection as the vaccine so I’m now not sure if it is worth the admittedly small but somewhat unknown risk of vaccination. Anyone else having similar thoughts?
No, vaccination gives much longer lasting protection.
I'm certainly no anti-vaxxer but unless I'm totally missing something (very possible!), these figures don't really make a compelling case for vaccination:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58785736
winston in which case you're rather missing the point. The worst thing that will come out of the pandemic is the myopic fixation on how the vaccine benefits the individual. With all vaccines protecting the individual is half the story, protecting the larger population is also hugely important. In this case vaccination does reduce transmissibility and crucially keeps many more people out of hospitable, all for tiny negative risks.
From the article:
Research suggests there is a tiny risk of myocarditis,
which even when it presents is not normally an issue.
Myocarditis can cause chest pain and a pounding heart, but symptoms usually clear up within days.
If you're worried about outcomes this is the quote I'd be worried about
Some studies show one in seven children who have been infected with the virus are thought to have also developed long Covid.
Vaccination reduces the severity of Covid which in turn reduces the likelihood of long Covid.
The worst thing that will come out of the pandemic is the myopic fixation on how the vaccine benefits the individual.
Yes, but discarding this 'fixation' is playing fast and loose with some pretty well-established principles of risk/benefit ethics, and that wouldn't be a great outcome either.
The foundation with regard to vaccination is that the benefits to the individual should outweigh the risks, unless the individual gives informed consent otherwise. Obviously in this case informed consent is not fully available, which makes it even more important that there are direct benefits.
'Tiny' risks become real if you are vaccinating millions of 12-15s. You would go into this expecting that there would be some severe reactions among the large number of children you vaccinate.
I'm not passionately opposed to vaccinating children for Covid (I think it's a finely balanced thing), but we have missed a far more important (but less convenient) step - going back repeatedly to the millions of adults who remain unvaccinated and encouraging them to protect themselves and other people.
75% of adults have received two doses. That leaves upwards of 10 million 'grown ups' either unvaccinated, or only partially vaccinated.
No, vaccination gives much longer lasting protection.
Seems that might not be the case with the delta variant…
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101
A bit odd that… but those with the best protection had been both double vaccinated and been infected. That’ll be many of us eventually. The aim of the game is to get vaccinated before infection. And, of course, it’s little consolation that infection on its own offers better protection than vaccination alone if the result is a poor health outcome of some kind, short or long term.
That leaves upwards of 10 million ‘grown ups’ either unvaccinated, or only partially vaccinated.
True. But addressing that shouldn’t be instead of vaccinating kids. Too many are currently at home, missing yet more education, while they fight this virus off, because we chose not to much at all to protect them ahead of vaccination this term. Anyway, you’re right, a focus on adult hold outs would be wise.
Was looking at Portugal… I think triggered by something half heard on More Or Less…
84% of the entire population vaccinated.
Compared with 67% here.
They can’t do much better than that, 90% is probably the absolute maximum, assuming 12 and under only vaccinated if at known serious risk, and that there are many adults who can not be vaccinated. Where as, clearly we could still do much better. Good to hear the PM stressing that people should get vaccinated in his speech today, rather than pretending the job is finished. A small piece of positive action from him this autumn.
And, of course, it’s little consolation that infection on its own offers better protection than vaccination alone if the result is a poor health outcome of some kind, short or long term.
True, and I’d rather my daughter had acquired her immunity via a vaccine rather than infection, but it’s happened now and in my mind it tips the balance towards not getting the jab given she will have good immunity. Also tipping the risk/benefit ratio is the 56% increase in severe vaccine reactions in those with previous infections. In my daughters case she had a mild illness but did have a very severe headache for 12 hours after she got better and I did wonder if it could be a blood clot caused by the immune response - I’d be a bit nervous about a vaccine potentially triggering that again.
Half single dose I assume has been chosen based on the those same considerations. I don’t know. But those studies cited are not based on that. The 56% percent figure doesn’t worry my personally anyway, as it’s a big % increase on a very tiny risk. And a second infection could prove to be riskier still anyway. We’ll be looking at full double dose later this year once our kid shakes this thing off, but would be happy with the single half dose after infection if they had no pre-existing conditions.
"True, and I’d rather my daughter had acquired her immunity via a vaccine rather than infection, but it’s happened now and in my mind it tips the balance towards not getting the jab given she will have good immunity. Also tipping the risk/benefit ratio is the 56% increase in severe vaccine reactions in those with previous infections."
This is where I am right now - it seems to make sense to have her vaccinated at some point in the future when natural immunity from infection is deemed to be wearing off.
@stumpyjon - genuine question: are you helping make this decision for any of your children right now or does our myopic fascination with the individual benefits of vaccination stem from our myopic fascination with the individual concerned?
Thanks @poopscoop . It’s only been 10 days, but feels like a month. Just need patience, they’ll shake it off soon I hope. No signs of improvement yet though.
@Winston both my kids are vaccinated, 13 year old was done today. Personally I believe we all should take a little risk for the benefit of everyone.
The absolutely best protection is from vaccination AND infection. Infection gained immunity wanes faster than from a double jab.
Double jab + recent Covid gives you long lasting protection plus exposure to Delta. Thats where I am currently (actually Im triple jammed through COV-BOOST trial!).
Double jab + recent Covid gives you long lasting protection
That makes me feel better as I wait for my PCR test result (which will be positive!)......:)
woody2000, funnily enough I was just sat here catching up and thought of you!
Mudmuncher and Kelvin: In France proof of infection between 12 days and six months ago gets you a pass sanitaire QR code and is considered as good as vaccination. After that you just need one dose. Personally I would be very reluctant to have a recently infected kid vaccinated knowing it would not improve protection in that period and would carry a small risk (or high in some cases with known medical conditions) . I'd then have them antibody tested before vaccination.
I can see the social responsibility idea behind vaccinating kids but the risk reward has to be in their favour. Delaying the roll out with one school after another once it's been decided on by government seems strange. If you're gonna do it, get on with it.
