here needs to be a system in place where if you cant/wont have the jab you need to take a test before attending mass events
Henning Wehn required a negative LFT test for the audience to attend his surprisingly "libertarian" show at the Fringe, and then pointed out the obvious fact that they are worth **** all as you can tell the NHS app whatever you want as far as whether it was negative or positive.
Our eldest tested negative to go the show, so it's possible he picked up Covid while there (though it was quite well socially distanced and our bet is on the Thursday night show in the packed pub basement)
I find myself agreeing with theotherjonv posts regularly.
Thank god, I thought it was just me!
Why not? For the “can’t”s then sure. But for the wont’s? When they go out in the world they endanger other people, they’re causing more strain on the NHS.
Because its unethical, you cant decipher the "cant's" from the "wont's", and the vaccine isn't 100%. You as a jabbed person could catch covid and pass it on. So as you can still pass it on why should you be allowed to Tesco and an unjabbed person not?
And once again society already has enough issues with social mobility, class and privilege so why add more boundaries.
You’re taking that bed from someone who now can’t have a routine operation in case something goes wrong and they need an ICU bed. That’s who.
But what if they need that operation because they haven't looked after themselves? Not eaten well and now have a heart problem? Is it so different?
I love people who rock up to be tested. I tell them 'no mask, no entry' and they pull out a totally useless certificate claiming they have a problem. I point out our site rules mean they need a mask for a total of 20yds inside the building and they won't have to wear it in the test bay, just as they walk to and from it. They are adamant they can't fo it, u repeat site rules and they have to go to the drive in at Guildford and it is amazing how they are prepared to put a mask on, even more surprising is how many of them actually have a mask with them.
Society already has enough issues with social mobility, class and privilege
Many of which are directly related to the mindset of said individuals. Covid doesn't give a poop for ethics or personal politics, it's truly egalitarian. About time we recognised this and stopped apologising and excusing many people in our society who don't want to do their part.
Thing is, overall today we’re 88.3% of 16+ (first dose, fair assunption most go for #2)
assumption is the mother of all **** ups
...actually don't care enough.
But what if they need that operation because they haven’t looked after themselves? Not eaten well and now have a heart problem? Is it so different
Presume you're playing devils advocate? What if it's a cancer op?
Again, I'm not in favour of compulsion, but vaccination is not a personal choice issue, it's a public health issue.
…actually don’t care enough.
Who, you or people who can't be bothered to take the opportunities provided by our free at the point of of use health service.
Everyone should be treated, even if they were far enough down the rabbit hole to drink bleach or stick a UV flare up their arse after Trump’s freewheeling. Yes, it’s bad for NHS staff. Yes it’s unfair. But the NHS is there for all of us.
Presume you’re playing devils advocate? What if it’s a cancer op?
Yes, I am. Please reread my post from top of this page for context, rather than just the bit you quoted.
As a civilised country we treat all, in spite of whether they 'bring it on themselves' or not. We don't refuse to treat smoker's cancers, for example, and I can see no reason why anyone smokes. I can see why some people refuse the vaccine, even if I think they are wrong.
But as i said this morning, we'll argue this forever.
We won't. We're on the same page. I understood your post in its entirety. I'm not sure why we're at odds?
joepud
Full MemberBecause its unethical, you cant decipher the “cant’s” from the “wont’s”, and the vaccine isn’t 100%. You as a jabbed person could catch covid and pass it on. So as you can still pass it on why should you be allowed to Tesco and an unjabbed person not?
It makes absolutely no difference whether the vaccine is 100% or not, I think you know that's a straw man...
And yes you can discern the can'ts from the won'ts, that's a straightforward medical matter.
TBH we could add a third category of some sort of official objection, and as long as you made it more hassle than the vaccine most people who "won't" would become "won't fill out that bloody long form, I'll get the vaccine instead".
Del, I agree with you, I don't think we (you and me) are at odds.
But we (general stw, even society as a whole) have had this circular argument before and I'm sure will have it again.
Two we's confusing the discussion. Apols
It makes absolutely no difference whether the vaccine is 100% or not, I think you know that’s a straw man…
if your argument is that unvaccinated people can spread a virus so should be removed society and the vaccine doesn't 100% stop transmission it does matter.
I guess though we should just agree to disagree there are more important discussion than the fictional splitting society by jabbed and unjabbed.
we should not let perfect be the enemy of good.
Tragic story at a human level
Covid sceptic dies in hospital
He said information had been skewed by social media and conspiracy theorists and he had not had the vaccine.
Do these conspiracy theorists and deniers have any ounce of regret at being proved so tragically wrong?
we should not let perfect be the enemy of good.
Wow, that's deep, man. You've already got us agreeing with you, no need to start a religion!🤣
The story about the covid sceptic was on the same page on the Beeb as a warning from the Scottish health minister that they were facing a perfect storm of cases, slow vaccine uptake among the young, and school and colleges going back.
Seem to remember reading that SAGE issued a similar warning on 11th August. Remember that date when it goes tits up in October again. Remember how the government ignored SAGE advice last autumn.
And my PCR has come back negative, so only Jnr has come up positive. Very confused about transmission/vaccination now.
I'd like to reassure Joepud he can still go shopping in Intermarché/Lidl sized shops in France, but not in the big shopping centers. Essential services are still open to the non-vaxxed, it's only non-essential that require the pass sanitaire. A negative PCR or proof of having had the virus within the last six months (positive PCR) also gets you a pass sanitaire, run over the time limit and it'll cost you 135e.
England boosters announced a commenting on 6th September alongside Flu jab, although no "groupings" seem to be clear as yet...
Yeah, my other half’s mum has been preparing to restart their vaccination centre on that date.
Anyone got any clue what flu vaccine stocks are likely to be like this autumn? I booked mine with Boots early last year, because I thought it would be helpful for lots of people to get it. Literally a couple of hours after I had it, it was on the news that stocks were not high and they would be prioritising, so I clearly did the wrong thing.
I'm just under 50, no (pretty much no, anyway) asthma, so not at great risk myself, but is it more socially responsible this year to get it (privately) or to steer clear to make sure there's plenty for those who actually need it...?
Do these conspiracy theorists and deniers have any ounce of regret at being proved so tragically wrong?
Read this thread about the guy's death above and anti-vaxxers/deniers are actually asking if it is a made up story, perhaps the guy didn't exist, and are using his widow's silence as proof...
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">(50,000 “acceptable” deaths per year before restrictions are reintroduced</span>
So, perhaps a few weeks after schools go back, plus another two weeks of dithering, so mid October?
There is an uptick in serious cases in Scotland this last week, lagging behind the surge in cases which started it seems three weeks ago.
I am wondering what some of our more informed posters think about the size of this third wave - how many serious illnesses and deaths there will be.
I am also interested in the bigger picture - have previous pandemics petered out after so many waves?
Does our modern life mean that it has more opportunity to keep circulating...?
I am wondering what some of our more informed posters think about the size of this third wave – how many serious illnesses and deaths there will be.
I don't know if I'm informed - the data is all out there, you just need to follow it / spend a bit of time extrapolating - but on the basis the cases lead to hospitalisations lead to deaths and the three are linked (just by different multipliers than past waves) the rate seems to be somewhere around the 1/250 cases to deaths. We've been at about 25,000 new cases per day at start of the month and deaths have lagged by 3 weeks or so and we are at we are now at 100 deaths per day, hence 1/250.
Our cases have increased by about 10,000 in that time (curr 35,000) so doubling rate is probably every 6 weeks or so. And those 35,000 cases will be ca 140-150 per day in mid-Sept......or 1000 per week = 50,000 per year rate.
What i don't know is why there was a big spike in July (I know that - thought to be Euros related and also the first big unlockings) but that spike doesn't have a corresponding spike in deaths earlier this month.
But what that does affect is the ratio. At the time I and eg: BBC was comparing that spike against deaths and getting around 1/1000. Now it's looking like 1/250, the numbers are there to see.
england – it really is another country!
A parting shot from that thread ^^^.
I will not condone stupidity just to appease stupid people and/or fit in.
I find a society that increasingly requires the appeasement of stupidity intensely worrying.
Mask wearing in crowded indoor spaces is not an onerous thing to do.
We are still harbouring large amounts of disease. Doubly-vaccinated people are still getting seriously ill in significant numbers. We are running risks we shouldn't.
End of.
also - I predict (OK, guesswork)
That doubling rate will increase/spike when E/W/NI schools go back. But I think the case -> death rate will reduce, as cases are higher in the (less susceptible) young.
I think that's my theory in the spiked case rate in July - more cases among the pubbing/clubbing/football watching lower age groups.
But the kids still take the cases home to their 50 year old parents, and the kids still get long term but not fatal outcomes.
Here is my scaled plot or the Delta wave (normalised to the Wave 2 Alpha peaks in cases, admissions and deaths). Since it's plotted on a Log-2 scale, every line on the y-axis is a halving of effect. So we see that admissions are currently 2.5 log2 or 65% lower than Wave 2. Deaths are the same again below Wave 2 admissions. This is a huge effect and shows that the vaccines are clearly working to prevent morbidity. I have smaller plots for the nations. they all show the same thing. 65% efficacy for cases to admissions and about 80% lower deaths!
The absence of a bump in deaths most likely reflects the age of the cases which fed into the hospitalisations and subsequently the deaths (ie., they were younger and hence less likely to die), you can see the excess effect from June-July.
They’ll accept a much higher death rate than we’re currently experiencing.
As long as it’s not them!
They’ll accept a much higher death rate than we’re currently experiencing.As long as it’s not them!
Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Unfortunately, our politicians have turned the prospect of even the mildest sort of restrictions into a political winning/losing issue, rather than a public health one, so we can expect another month of **** around and blustering on top of your timescale.
This is insanity…
Half the reason for excluding the unvaccinated in France at least is not that unvaccinated people can spread the virus (which they can but then so to a lesser degree do the vaccinated). It's that too many unvaccinated people get sick enough to end up in hospital which then makes lockdown necessary so that there are only as many sick as can be treated. If you stop the unvaccinated going to places they are likely to catch the virus you'll reduce the pressure on hospitals.
I will not condone stupidity just to appease stupid people and/or fit in.
Genuinine question - how about ignorance? I suspect the vast majority of people dont study the numbers or cause / effect as the majority on this thread, either intentionally or unintentionally an "ignorance is bliss" approach, until an important headline/announcement appears on their version of news media. Now, these people have heard that mask wearing is now optional, and without digging any deeper than a red top, think "cool, I'll stick that in the bin then"
I bet there's plenty of that going on.
I will not condone stupidity just to appease stupid people and/or fit in.
I find a society that increasingly requires the appeasement of stupidity intensely worrying.
Ironically, Boris has the popularity, the majority and the time to dig his heels in and make "Don't be a dick" his next catchy slogan.
The fact that he won't shows how much he and his backers don't want a big chunk of the electorate to have any sort of meaningful sense of social responsibility.
The more virus there is 'out there' the more likely the occurrence of a new variant of concern, with the selective pressure being vaccine avoidance. Either by transmissibility or by actually diminishing the effect of a given vaccine vs pathogen interaction.
I simply do not see the point of not adhering to a few basic, personally responsible measures that are not onerous in any way.
Wearing a mask in public indoor spaces unless you are eating or drinking really is not onerous. But too much of our public is indoctrinated with an attitude of '**** everyone else, someone else is to blame and someone else can clear up my mess - unless, I get ill, of course, then I demand a state-funded limo to a private hospital room where my every whim must be catered to'.
****ing selfish pricks.
Ironically, Boris has the popularity, the majority and the time to dig his heels in and make “Don’t be a dick” his next catchy slogan.
The fact that he won’t shows how much he and his backers don’t want a big chunk of the electorate to have any sort of meaningful sense of social responsibility.
Social responsibility is dangerous to this bunch of morons and crooks.
Much better to have the proles fight amongst themselves over the last job at the Amazon warehouse and fume at how 'forriners' have thwarted Good Old Britain again.
Genuinine question – how about ignorance?
I've very little contact with anti-vaxxers but I'd agree it's ignorance rather than stupidity (one is a teacher), willful ignorance. The kind of ignorance that comes from never reading a paper, listening to the radio or watching TV; consulting a homeopath rather than a qualified doctor and above all spending time with conspiracy nuts on social media.
The overlapping section of the Venn diagram of 'stupid people' and 'wilfully ignorant people' is large. So much so that they are often indistinguishable.
****ing selfish pricks.
That hugs still going for free but I won't be offering it forever. Can add a little bum squeeze too for added cheering up.
it is ultimately selfishness though.
Whether they think mask wearing is needed or not, whether they feel their chances are sufficiently good to not need the vaccine, the societal benefits are clear to both. But they put their own interests before the needs of the greater population.
Which to me is the definition of selfishness.
That hugs still going for free but I won’t be offering it forever. Can add a little bum squeeze too for added cheering up.
You are Matt Hancock and I claim my £5!
Sounds nice Larry can i have one ....
That hugs still going for free but I won’t be offering it forever. Can add a little bum squeeze too for added cheering up.
Ah, taking away what I need and replacing it with an unwanted alternative whilst telling me it is for my own good. As metaphors for Brexit Britain go, that is a good one.
I'm not particularly angry anymore anyway. I just laugh disdainfully most of the time these days.
That hugs still going for free but I won’t be offering it forever. Can add a little bum squeeze too for added cheering up.
Milky, milky!
The c19 is a strange beast , it started with anyone looking at an infected person would get it , now we know there are so many variables , but it seems inescapable to me the govt is going for herd immunity by stealth , all dropping of controls , festivals at full lick , football , clubs etc , as the majority have been double jabbed , they are trusting that eventually it will run out of places to spread , the unvaccinated will always be a pool of opportunity.
My kids had it first , after going to a party , delayed response my wife got it but i didn’t , until last week .
I’m sure it’s the fait accompli they wish .
they are trusting that eventually it will run out of places to spread
Given that the vaccinated can acquire and transmit Delta, this seems a rather forlorn hope. There is nothing as clean as herd immunity to this, especially given its ability to produce fresh variants. As a population, we will become generally better at dealing with it, and protected from its worst effects via repeated infection, plus vaccination, but that's not a short term outcome.
Isn't herd immunity in the normal sense impossible anyway?
If CV19 can be caught over and over that will never happen.
