Seems like in the UK we had all the evidence to shut borders and go into lockdowns faster than we did and our Government wasted that advantage and put us where we are now.
In Aus, you did all that and now "the population" seems intent on throwing away the lead you gained over the vax program. I hope it's not too late for you to pull back....
(apologies for total overgeneralisation, I know plenty are keen to get jabbed and there are logistical issues too. But also will be interesting to see what effect is of the impact starting to be felt whereas previously it has been something that happens to other people / in other countries. A cold dose of reality.....)
Aren't Australia about a month (at most) behind most rich countries when it comes to the vaccine rollout? People waiting for vaccines other than AZ has happened in lots of countries. Not just because of the very small clotting risk, but also because it doesn't work as well as the alternatives. In the USA, they've skipped past using it completely. We've used it to "get ahead", but we're more the exception than the rule. I had my second AZ jab yesterday by the way.
apologies for total overgeneralisation
Nah, Fair dinkum
I can excuse/accept slow vaccination as a result of supply issues. But the government over here has done a really half-arsed job in getting the message out to people about the relative risk/benefit of the AZ jab, and that’s behind the hesitancy.
Coupled with the near-zero risk posed by covid here in the past 8-10 months, I suppose one can understand why people aren’t getting it.
I suspect that some of the older generation are quite liking having the borders closed too.
I’m slightly guilty of that - although my kids haven’t seen their grandparents for 18 months…. I’m quite enjoying sydney without the tourists
I'm with you on the lack of tourists @batfink ... but unfortunately where i am we're now overrun with Sydneysiders paying stupid money for houses and putting all the prices up 😛
Government needn't take all the responsibility for the slowness in uptake. It's not lack of supply, it's also apathy and innumeracy. You'd have to have your head buried in the sand to not have heard the stat's, but people have very short-term memories.
Articles like this (which has a nice comparison between the risks of adventure sports and AZ jab) are everywhere.
We've vaccinated about 5% of the population of the region in the last few weeks. Not bad going, but i suspect it'll drop off again if we don't get another 'shock' unfortunately.
Rules on social distancing, working from home and wearing face masks will be dropped on July 19 and replaced with 'personal responsibility,' it has been reported.
The Government is said to be encouraged by the “very, very” low number of Covid-19 deaths and an apparent slowdown in infections.
The Times reports that lockdown rules will be almost totally lifted on July 19 with 'personal responsibility' replacing laws on social distancing and face masks.
If this goes ahead, that is great news. Personal responsibility must be the way forward out of this.
What does that mean?
What does that mean?
Performing your patriotic duty by doing whatever you feel like and providing Tory ministers with someone to blame if it goes tits up in September.
Whittingdale was on BBC Breakfast this morning blaming schoolchildren for spreading it due to their close proximity outside school. Nothing to do with sitting indoors with the mask mandate removed, then.
Two mates in the village are self isolating this week - one because one of his kids came home from uni (in Manchester, so Sturgeon was right all along!) and then tested positive, another got pinged by the NHS app for a close contact last Friday when he was on an outdoor site visit.
Definitely a rise in positive tests locally looking at the government figures, gone from 50-60 a day to 250-300 a day. No deaths for several weeks though, thankfully.
What does that mean?
Presumably the end of the emergency legislation that was put in place.
I mean, what does "Personal responsibility must be the way forward out of this" mean? That's as vague as saying "Positive thinking is the way forward out of this." Once you have a crowd of people, which person is taking responsibility, and what action should they take? We're all already taking personal responsibility for our own actions... aren't we? The question is whether groups or society as a whole need to maintain any measures to prevent spread through this summer, and into the Autumn/Winter. If we decide not to have any measures at all, then whoever makes that decision should be taking on the responsibility of what happens next, not any random person picked out from the crowd, or any business trying to crack on with their trade, or any child that gives their mate a welcome hug.
I keep seeing lots of stories about Ivermectin as a possible therapeutic/prophylactic for Covid. There seem to be 3 semi-official studies but nothing gold standard. Any of our experts care to comment?
I shall be exercising my personal responsibility by continuing to do my weekly shop at quiet times and not standing cheek by jowl with dickheads at the bar.
Pity those in work situations such as the service industry where any vague idea of Joe public being respectful of them goes completely out of the window.
Had second OxAZ jab last Tues, felt rough Weds, jumped on turbo on Thurs and Fri and legs really struggled at z2 just like after my first jab in April.
Sat morning my legs were able to do my first 300W+ 20mins since just before my April jab, pleased but really knackered for rest of day. Legs felt ok on Sun morning, doing the odd short z4+ effort over an hour.
~2.5 rest days later on Tues evening just before end of England game, I force myself on the turbo, way later than normal to do a z2 ERG workout. Legs felt just like last Thurs/Fri, not at home and struggling way below normal cadence.
I don't recall a relapse after my bad April side effects, when I didn't get on a bike for ~1.5 weeks.
Anyone else had similar?
I mean, what does “Personal responsibility must be the way forward out of this” mean? That’s as vague as saying “Positive thinking is the way forward out of this.” Once you have a crowd of people, which person is taking responsibility, and what action should they take? We’re all already taking personal responsibility for our own actions… aren’t we? The question is whether groups or society as a whole need to maintain any measures to prevent spread through this summer, and into the Autumn/Winter. If we decide not to have any measures at all, then whoever makes that decision should be taking on the responsibility of what happens next, not any random person picked out from the crowd, or any business trying to crack on with their trade, or any child that gives their mate a welcome hug.
Pretty much any of the precautionary measures we have learned over the last 18 months can be classed as taking personal responsibility. Minimising close social contact, opening windows and creating good ventilation when visiting people, staying at home if you are sick, working from home where possible, travelling at off-peak times on public transport if you have to or ideally using a personal car or cycling, walking to desinations if you can. There's loads we can do to continue to play our part under the guise of personal responsibility. Getting vaccinated if you can.
We’re all already taking personal responsibility for our own actions… aren’t we?
Yes exactly. We know enough about how it works now to take it onto ourselves rather than needing emergency legislation enacted upon us for years to come.
Not sure you've grasped how this government operates. They were doing exactly as they pleased as soon as they got in to power.
Trouble is some folks simply don't give enough of a shit to follow the basic guidelines.
For example, the guy who delivered my shopping yesterday, basically dumps the box on my doormat then stands literally a foot away from me whilst I unpack it. No mask, but more Importantly how hard would it have been to take 2 steps back from the door. For his own safety and for mine.
News coming out of an even more transmissible version of delta today. That cctv story is also pretty worrying however you've got to think that that must be a bit of a one off. No way is it that transmissible otherwise alot more folks would have it than they do.
Rules on social distancing, working from home and wearing face masks will be dropped on July 19 and replaced with ‘personal responsibility,’ it has been reported.
The Government is said to be encouraged by the “very, very” low number of Covid-19 deaths and an apparent slowdown in infections.
The Times reports that lockdown rules will be almost totally lifted on July 19 with ‘personal responsibility’ replacing laws on social distancing and face masks.
If this goes ahead, that is great news. Personal responsibility must be the way forward out of this.
I really don't like the tone of that announcement, smacks far too much of the govt washing their hands of it all and putting the onus on the general public instead for any new clusters or outbreaks. It just feels like we are again about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (whatever that is in this case). I think we should really be making sure we enter this coming winter and flu season with the lowest level of spread we sensibly can to give us the best chance to enter 2022 at the lowest level we can, this should give us a fighting chance of having a normal 2022.
Yes we have to learn to live with it the same as we do with flu etc but it smacks of going one step too far too quickly. I'll definitely still be wearing my mask in shops and avoiding busy times and places as much as possible, sadly a lot of people are already failing to do so and putting the onus on 'personal responsibility' will just exacerbate that.
Depressing reading. I’m starting to wonder if we’ll ever get back to normal.
We know enough about how it works now to take it onto ourselves rather than needing emergency legislation enacted upon us for years to come.
Who's this "we"? Do you? Scanning this thread, I'm dubious.
Ultimately, if the decision is made that no ongoing measures are required over the summer holidays, then the politicians taking that decision are responsible for what happens later this year.
Personally, this summer, I'd be pushing for all sectors to be opened, but mask wearing indoors to be kept, and social distancing, ventilation, table service, outdoor options (including councils giving venues outdoor spaces to use, even if it means traffic restrictions) to be kept over the summer. Take further steps towards "normal" after the schools, colleges and universities return in the Autumn, if the return is shown to be safe thanks to our efforts over the summer. Learn the lesson of last summer. We're in such a better position than we were then, let's use that to have a normal educational year for youngsters, they've been though so much disturbance over the last 18 months... put them first now.
I don't get why we need to be told what to do now that the NHS isn't under the immediate risk of collapse that it was. The restrictions were only brought in to avoid a total collapse of the system, they were never about saving individual lives. That part lies with the individual who can choose to make themselves as safe as they want to be by staying at home, having shopping delivered, not seeing friends and family etc.
The scientists are almost all in agreement that the link between cases and deaths has been broken, therefore the issue of the NHS collapsing under sudden strain is removed.
You won't ever prevent significant deaths from COVID, the science has always been clear that it will end up being similar to flu so we need to adapt our healthcare system over the long term to cope with the added hospitalisation.
On a personal level, if you don't feel comfortable with that, just don't go out the house and you'll remove that risk entirely. But it's not on everyone else to eliminate that risk to you at unmeasurable financial, social and cultural loss for years and years to come.
No way is it that transmissible otherwise alot more folks would have it than they do.
It's a numbers game. If there is a 1 in 10,000 chance that walking past someone can transmit the virus (and it is theoretically possible), then you will have a small number of cases transmitted that way. The only difference here is they think they have detected the moment of transmission. There must be a lot of people who are utterly clueless about how they caught it.
Doesn't mean we should particularly change our behaviour when walking past someone in the street - it's a tiny individual risk. But people should be mindful that this variant in particular is likely to be more transmissible outdoors, and not be too complacent about standing around yapping for ages right next to someone.
immediate risk
Well, there you go. Once the risk of this is “immediate” we go into a long damaging lock down. Take “softer” actions now to keep transmissions lower instead. Revisit once we’ve had a safe return to education. I care more about youngsters starting their first full year of face to face education for 3 academic years than I do the rest of us having to wear masks indoors a bit longer over the summer.
I’m starting to wonder if we’ll ever get back to normal
I don't think we will either. I feel pretty conditioned to how life is now. Not being able to go certain things anymore, mask wearing, limited numbers in places etc.
Well, there you go. Once the risk of this is “immediate” we go into a long damaging lock down. Take “softer” actions now to keep transmissions lower instead. Revisit once we’ve had a safe return to education. I care more about youngsters starting their first full year of face to face education for 3 academic years than I do the rest of us having to wear masks indoors a bit longer over the summer.
I don't think some people like yourself will ever be satisfied with the risk being low enough to ease restrictions, you've been conditioned over 18 months to be fearful of the disease.
I am satisfied and have been for se time now that the risk is low enough.
Neither of us are scientists, so we are both just sharing our opinion.
I don’t get why we need to be told what to do now that the NHS isn’t under the immediate risk of collapse that it was
Because the NHS is always at risk of collapse every winter. Being cautious about relaxing restrictions now - and that is all any of the posters are suggesting - reduces the chance of a catastrophic NHS failure this winter. Which might give them a chance to deal with the 4 million people stuck on a waiting list, maybe.
This last 16 months has shown that while a majority of people understand their personal responsibility in this, there's a sizeable majority who don't, or won't. The restrictions are there to protect "us" from "their" actions, sadly.
Because the NHS is always at risk of collapse every winter.
I think people say the NHS is 'at risk of collapse every winter', but it means different things in the context of recent events.
In the good old days, 'at risk of collapse' meant having to cancel elective work for short periods, problems with bed shortages, perhaps having to discharge people early. But still dealing with emergency work.
These days, it actually means at risk of collapse, with insufficient resources to deal with even the volume of Covid cases, let alone anything else, and mortality spiralling as a result. We came very, very close to that last winter and in Spring 2020.
It's hard to say whether that will be the case this winter. We can't predict what kind of flu season we'll have, or whether prioritising away from chronic conditions will increase emergency admissions. We do know there is very little slack in the system, staff are burned out and leaving, and not being replaced.
Anecdotally I'm hearing that hospitals are very much on a war footing, even though Covid hospitalisations are nowhere near peak. A relative of mine got turned away from A&E this week with persistent headaches and blurred vision following a Covid jab (!). She said they were trying to refuse help to some poor woman who had stuck her hand in a blender...
I keep seeing lots of stories about Ivermectin as a possible therapeutic/prophylactic for Covid. There seem to be 3 semi-official studies but nothing gold standard. Any of our experts care to comment?
There has been many studies that keep getting buried and not reported...Although its now hitting MSM.
Many top Doctors and professors have shouted about it from the start...do you not find it amazing that they are only studying it now as a possible treatment?
I am sure the STW brigade will shoot it down soon though.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57570377
https://www.pharmacymagazine.co.uk/ivermectin-for-covid-19-a-cheap-drug-with-a-remarkable-effect
Good Listen here..
The large Pharma companies don't really want to re-purpose old medicines as they wont make money.
A recent quote I heard was "Sacrifice Trillions for a few company's to make Billions."
There has been many studies that keep getting buried and not reported…Although its now hitting MSM.
cool, could you link to them, I tried to find the studis but only managed to get;
Scientific evidence doesn’t support the use of ivermectin as a treatment for COVID-19. Clinical trials must be designed and executed appropriately to show the efficacy and safety of a given drug for treating a particular disease. Clinical trials that show beneficial effects of using ivermectin to treat COVID-19 patients often have many methodological shortcomings and design flaws. More recent, well-designed studies show that ivermectin is ineffective for treating COVID-19 patients. Furthermore, safety data regarding ivermectin’s antiparasitic use doesn’t apply to its safety in COVID-19 patients.
you’ve been conditioned over 18 months to be fearful of the disease
No, I haven't. I have no fear of crossing the road either. What I am keen to do is look both ways before stepping into the road. I'm keeping the analogy as simple as possible for you.
The large Pharma companies don’t really want to re-purpose old medicines as they wont make money.
That sounds nothing like any "Pharma company" I know. Plenty of cases of companies "re-purposing" medicines, and making lots of money out of doing so. Why wouldn't they want to do that?
EDIT: I see ivermectin is off-patent, I guess that's what you're getting it.
A recent quote I heard was “Sacrifice Trillions for a few company’s to make Billions.”
Why are you still here? Who are you? Why are you so keen on spreading this childish stuff?
Ivermectin is interesting. I had a scan of the rapid review meta-analysis and there certainly seems to be a positive effect. However, if you're proposing giving a drug, even a relatively well-tolerated one as Ivermectin, to healthy people as prophylaxis, then the evidence needs to be pretty clear-cut.
The large Pharma companies don’t really want to re-purpose old medicines as they wont make money.
Dexamethasone and the RECOVERY trial results must have somehow evaded the evil tentacles of Big Pharma. How did they manage it?
No, I haven’t. I have no fear of crossing the road either. What I am keen to do is look both ways before stepping into the road. I’m keeping the analogy as simple as possible for you.
I've looked both ways and the road looks clear to me.
Because the NHS is always at risk of collapse every winter. Being cautious about relaxing restrictions now – and that is all any of the posters are suggesting – reduces the chance of a catastrophic NHS failure this winter. Which might give them a chance to deal with the 4 million people stuck on a waiting list, maybe.
That happens every winter, mainly because of the way our healthcare system works (inflexible) and sadly a lack of funding.
I don't accept restrictions on my personal life for years to come to pay for that, I want it to be funded properly and organised and run properly. At first the rules were brought in to address a sudden emergency, that is no longer the case and pressure on the NHS should be relieved via funding and hiring of more staff. Sadly something this government has spent 11 years ****ing up.
Who said "for years to come"? And why should anyone put your petty concerns about a summer of mask wearing indoors or whatever above the educational and medical needs of millions this winter?
Why are you still here? Who are you? Why are you so keen on spreading this stuff
Its an internet discussion forum. It’s not “spreading” anything. It’s called discussion
WTF has it got to do with you who I am?
It’s people like you trying to crush other alternatives or thoughts that is part of the problem, freedom of speech, censorship.
Do you work for the Government? If not you should
Who said years to come? And why should anyone put your petty concerns about a summer of mask wearing indoors or whatever above the educational and medical needs of millions this winter?
This is becoming quite sad really. I think you just enjoy being told what to do. You're one of those people that needs rules for everything and has to be told what to do to get on with their life. There's a reason this thread is far quieter than it was last year and it's because most people have moved on with their lives.
You must live under a rock if you think most of the public are on board with this nonsense still. I'm sure you're going to tell me that everyone you know has the same opinion as you do, but most people i speak to got bored of it months ago.
The emergency is gone, people have lives to return to and we've paid for this enough by this point. There's really no point in still having legal restrictions when we're now at a point where those who aren't interested anymore are getting on as normal anyway because they're just causing net harm rather than net benefit.
You’re one of those people that needs rules for everything and has to be told what to do to get on with their life.
You're miles wide of the mark there, but never mind. Keep projecting some weird idea on me and others that anyone wants any measures this summer for any reason other than to avoid more restrictive ones in future. It's not a difficult concept, small inconvenience for a bit longer to prevent another lock down or harsher longer measures being needed this autumn and winter. Make sure everyone can open up this summer, and then stay open. Make sure pupils and students can finally get stuck into a full year of education, after the stop start nature of their last few years. Start making inroads into the backlog of medical care people are waiting for. Show the world that we have things under control to enable international travel. Lots of big things to be gained from some small simple measures staying in place over the summer. You and I being able to throw our masks away is inconsequential to me, and can wait a bit longer. That's my opinion anyway.
The large Pharma companies don’t really want to re-purpose old medicines as they wont make money.
Regardless of what you think about Kelvin, this is clearly nonsense and you rightly should be called out on it. Otherwise explain to us how the most effective treatment to date is a common steroid that's been kicking about for years..
You’re miles wide of the mark there, but never mind. Keep projecting some weird idea on me and others that anyone wants any measures for any reason other than to avoid more restrictive ones in future. It’s not a difficult concept, small inconvenience for a bit longer to prevent another lock down or harsher longer measures being needed this autumn and winter.
Where has the idea of more restrictive measures in the future come from? I certainly didn't mention it. You've made up a trade-off there to justify your opinion. It's not 'lmore restrictions now to make less in the future', it's 'no restrictions now and none in the future either' in my eyes.
We have vaccines that are now proven beyond doubt to be 90% effective, that's where this whole debacle ends.
Dig a little deeper than Google
Why is it just appearing now on the mainstream news about studies and effectiveness? Why didn’t they try this 18 months ago? Plenty others did the study and praised its effectiveness but were shut off.
Do you not think Pharma companies want to make £££
Also tidy Partnerships of the Maker of Ivermectin
https://www.merck.com/stories/why-were-excited-to-partner-on-johnson-and-johnsons-covid-19-vaccine/
And which is owned by..
The emergency is gone
I imagine you are one of the folks that said similar around September last year.
The likelihood is that the vaccine will prevent the emergency you allude to, but surely it makes sense to test that theory slowly, rather than open up everything and let it rip with zero controls..
Because make no mistake, once you open things up fully, unless the vaccine is at least 95% effective many many people will still die, purely down to how prevalent the virus will be
The other thing that I have to question is what huge liberties folks are currently giving up due to covid? Unless your in certain industries and therefore have your livelihood affected there is really very little you are missing out on. I'm sure you can do without your annual summer holiday and weekly jaunt to the local nightclub for the greater good of society no? In the last 3 months not once have I wanted to do something that I wasn't allowed to due to restrictions
Why is it just appearing now on the mainstream news about studies and effectiveness?
Ivermectin was all over the mainstream media last year. There's no need to "dig deeper". The concern has alway been not only that its effectiveness was being overplayed ahead of results to back that up, but also that many were pushing it as an alternative to people getting vaccinated.
Where has the idea of more restrictive measures in the future come from?
The world outside your head. Even the government has made it clear that a careful tapering of measures is required if we're to avoid going back to greater restrictions. The discussion was only about how to taper, and when. So far they seem to have learned the hard lesson of the last 18 months and are making sensible adjustments to their plans. Getting all businesses fully open in July I really hope is still on the cards... I seen no reason why that can't be paired with mask wearing indoors and more use of outside spaces over the summer. Other than not liking to be told "what to do".
Dig a little deeper than Google
Ah the standard slightly patronising response of the conspiracy theorist! I was aware of invermectin 18 months ago, I remember asking about it on here.
But rather than tell me how gullible I am how about explaining to us why dexamethasone was repurposed so readily given it's as cheap a drug as there is? Surely big pharma would not be allowing that to happen?
Actually don't bother..as i honestly don't give a shit what you have to say on the subject..
I don’t accept restrictions on my personal life for years to come to pay for that,
Neither will I, but I can manage a couple more months, unpleasant as it is, if I have to.
Sadly we have to accept a level of death from this virus, and the evidence now is that the amount of death isn't going to shut down the NHS. That is why i believe personal responsibility after mid July is correct.
The people who are likely to die from this have been vaccinated and the remainder are at little to no risk.
The COVID pandemic is over; we won. Now let's get on with our lives!
Neither will I, but I can manage a couple more months, unpleasant as it is, if I have to.
That's been said so many times now, and it's never been just a couple more months. The longer we accept restrictions going on, the longer they will go on.
The effects of the restrictions are just too great to bear now for what we are gaining. Not dying is important, but it's not the only thing that's important. Look at schools, 60 kids going home for 10 days because a teacher brought it into a mixed class, when virtually no-one is dying anyway? How is that appropriate?
The vaccines are working. All vulnerable condition and age groups have had it or been offered the vaccine, so there is no justification for anyone having to isolate. Or are we saying the vaccines don't work in which case why have I submitted to an experimental drug?
Also on hospital admissions rising, i have a novel solution, hire more nurses and doctors, and buy more ventilators. We've had 18 months to do so have we not?
