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I think you’ve misinterpreted that post you’ve quoted as literal.
I think there's a failure to understand another sense of humour
PS: Precautionary note for pissheads here:
Damn if only I'd read that before opening the celebratory bottle of red last night after my jab.
Why has everyone I know who has had the jab in Scotland had the Pfizer version?
I thought the AZ version was the one we had most of. Are they deliberately giving the Pfizer jab to the older folks as it's proven to be more effective in that age group?
Would certainly make sense if so.
The evidence so far would suggest that might be wise targeting. But it's more likely to be about the AZ distribution being easier to manage, so that one going out to harder to reach areas and groups that aren't the people you know [edit: to be clear, that's a guess, I don't know anything more than you].
I've had Pfizer in England.
Why has everyone I know who has had the jab in Scotland had the Pfizer version?
Cos that's the one we've got the most of
I thought the AZ version was the one we had most of. Are they deliberately giving the Pfizer jab to the older folks as it’s proven to be more effective in that age group?
We will have more AZ eventually but in a twist that everybody in primary care could see coming a mile off, we're giving the Pfizer one in the community PCN vaccine sites, while the Mass vaccine sites (that should be using Pfizer) are using the AZ. Why? because the mass sites can't cope with using the Pfizer vaccine (they don't have the staff facilities, experience etc.) to handle it, so it's being sent to the primary care sites instead. We really don't care about which group are getting which vaccine anyway, at the front line you just dole out what you have.
By the by, I looked at the search codes for group 6, and guess what? Our codes select if you're "YES" - taken asthma meds for the last 12 months, and "YES" - you've got a current asthma diagnosis, you be on the list...Now, that's the case in our PCN currently, it may change, so don't get your hopes up only for them to be crushed later, but it looks to me like you'd be invited for a jab.
I'm starting 10days of self isolation today as my dad tested positive this morning. My parents went for their jab about 10days ago and unfortunately it looks like my dad has managed to contract CV when there. Both of them felt rough last week after the jab, but where my mother recovered my father continued being unwell. Finally got them to make a doctors appointment and they were told to get a test first. My mum can no longer drive and my dad was too unwell to drive, so I took them. Nice to actually see them again, but shit to see my dad in a bad way. Anyway, positive result for my dad, can't quite get my head around how unlucky they've been, they've been shielding since Lockdown 1. I'm hoping my mum dodges it but we'll see how things progress.
Nothing to add to the thread, just, sigh... Needed to type this out for my own sanity.
GENUINE QUESTION (after some posters I spotted on my way to work)...
Does the PCR & Lateral tests detect the virus, the disease or both?
That's shit, TwistedP. Might be worth reporting the positive result to the venue that delivered the vaccine in case there is some lax practice there which needs to be picked up.
@Sefton , the LFT tests for the protein signature of the virus (antigens)
That’s shit, TwistedP
Absolutely this. If they picked it up from the vaccine centre it is incredibly unlucky.
When my dad went they had double booked the entire days vaccinations, so there was a queue 400 meters round the block of over 70s standing out in sub zero temps for an hr. Not ideal, but unfortunately to be expected given the challenge the vaccination teams face
Thanks, how about the PCR test?
so was the poster getting at... a positive result does not necessarily mean you have Covid (but Sars cov 2)?
Split of vaccines in Scotland
A positive test (either lft or pcr) result means that someone is infected with the virus, but it doesn't meant they will have symptoms.
Thanks, how about the PCR test?
Sorry, it looks for the RNA. will confirm that if you have symptoms (loss of smell/taste, continuous new cough, high temp) you have it currently.
Can also be used to test whether you have had it in the past (if you're currently symptom free).
Some more anti-sceptic science debunking. Last year everyone was adamant that prior exposure to the (common) human coronaviruses would provide immunity against SARS-CoV2. That the threshold for herd immunity must be much lower, and... well you get the picture.
A study just published in Cell looking at antibodies in subjects with past exposure to seasonal coronaviruses affords no protection from infection whatsoever. I definitely said just this last year - that one should not assume to be true, that which is only a hypothesis. But presumption is the mother of all cock-ups. Now where's Dr Yeadon's esteemed comments on this paper? He seems to have gone rather quiet of late. Apparently #YeadonWrongAgain is a thing.
For the record, we now know that humans do not have pre-existing protection against SAR-CoV2 infection from past infections. We may have some cross-reactive T cells, but they do not protect. That the drop in contagion in the first wave and subsequently, is driven by contact restrictions rather than widespread immunity, and that vaccination imparts at least six months of protection, likely longer, against serious infection.
Cheers for reference.
Surprised elsevier are giving free access to the articles though
COVID articles are universally free access across most, if not all, publishers. Trying to keep up with medrXiv 😉
True.
The article is interesting.
I wonder if there is something in the coronavirus infection pathway that means that sterile immunity is actually not possible even with vaccines or prior infection, be interesting if they can get larger samples sizes for analysis though.
There are a lot of statements on the need for further studies
Preclinical vaccine challenge studies showed sterile protection for both mRNA vaccines in a species more susceptible to severe disease than humans. I think this was a phenotype not seen with the OX/AZ vaccine, and that protection translated to the clinic. Sterility is really a "nice to have" though, given the widespread transmission of the other four coronaviruses. What the paper really shows is that it OK to form a hypothesis, but one should not base your policy on such a hypothesis without confirmation. That was my original point. Cross-reactivity to nucleocapsid would not be unexpected, but this is not an effective site for neutralisation and prevention of engagement with ACE2 and cell infection.
Oh well self isolation is going well... back at my parents as my dad has taken a tumble and ended up in the bath. His breathing is laboured and there is no way my mum can move him if he has another fall. He's now back in bed and we're waiting for an uncle to drop off something to measure his breathing, oxygen levels.
From the little I've seen i think he needs to go to hospital. We'll see what his doctor says.
What were the preclin studies in? Would assume ferrets, but haven't really read anything in that since leaving a job several roles ago.
I think the sterile immunity but is something that should be made clearer though (not in those terms) as it might make people think a bit more about being careless after having the vaccine.
Worry is if people can understand the significance though
Rhesus macaques https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1
Hamsters are a better model for lung infection and are used widely for studies of passive neutralizing antibodies. People think of vaccines as jab-and-go, but this time it's jab and don't get such a nasty infection if you catch it.
I guess ferrets are not as good a model for coronaviruses.
Used a lot for influenza.
Yeah agreed, i think that point needs to be made a lot clearer on the efficacy and that you can still get ill (just not as bad as it could be)
People think of vaccines as jab-and-go, but this time it’s jab and don’t get such a nasty infection if you catch it.
Any thoughts on whether vaccination will reduce the likelihood of long covid? I get that's probably a hard one to answer given the confusion over what causes the condition, but it would be unfortunate if people were suffering a mild to moderate initial infection but still go on to develop a chronic condition.
Interestingly, there are long haulers out there who believe that being vaccinated has actually cleared their long covid symptoms by somehow normalising their immune response and either stopping it from over-reacting or possibly allowing them to kill off persistent pathogen, which may or may not be the case.
What is slightly depressing - as evidenced by yesterday's 'let the old people die' spat - is that people still seem to think that covid has binary outcomes: either you die or you have a mild flu-like illness, but in reality large numbers of people in all age brackets have been wiped out for months.
Any thoughts on whether vaccination will reduce the likelihood of long covid?
It's a great question. Given the majority of those under 50 will have a mild initial illness regardless of vaccination, if it doesn't protect against long covid it's kinda pointless most of them having it.
I'd assumed (for no good reason) it would protect against long covid as well.
I’d assumed (for no good reason) it would protect against long covid as well.
I'm guessing that the answer is that no-one knows for sure and it will depend on the mechanism(s) behind long covid. There does seem to be some evidence of persisting pathogen, but there's a theory - apparently - that some people's immune systems simply don't work conventionally against this virus and instead take months to clear it, in which case I guess it's a question of whether that's a function of the virus dodging the immune system initially, in which case vaccination may help, or whether it's innate to some people's immune systems, in which case I guess it's a question of whether they will also react to the virus to produce an antibody response.
But I'm far from any sort of scientist, just a worried long hauler :-/
Some studies have found a higher rate than normal of auto immune reactive antibodies in long haulers.
But i don't think anyone knows. It's an unusual one and i don't think anyone knows the mechanism yet.
It is def a worry though that vaccination will likely prevent severe disease, we could still end up with people suffering long term
Some good news - as a vulnerable person, mrs_oab had her first jag just now.
Some odd news - eldest_oab who is a frontline CV19 public testing station staff member isn't going to get a jag ahead of general public. Seems odd.
It is def a worry though that vaccination will likely prevent severe disease, we could still end up with people suffering long term
Quite. It worries me that it doesn't seem to figure in any sort of mainstream discussion of vaccination when it has the potential to be a major health issue going forward. You'd think there'd be some potential for gathering data from vaccine trials - ie: did any of those who were vaccinated and displayed mild symptoms of infection then go on to develop long covid - but I've not heard of anything along those lines.
I had my AZ vaccination today. Currently painless, but I had been for 2 hour XC ski just prior to having it which should give some aches and pains anyway.
Some odd news – eldest_oab who is a frontline CV19 public testing station staff member isn’t going to get a jag ahead of general public. Seems odd.
I thought all nhs staff got it ? I personally know of at least one who works back office and hasn't been into office for 10 months who got it, so seems very odd to exclude the testing staff. I assume he's queried that?
Just spoken (for the first time in ages) to my cousin back in the UK. She works at a mid-Essex funeral directors.
I joked saying she must have been busy. She said she was, although they've dealt with more suicides in the last year than they have covid deaths.
I had my AZ vaccination today. Currently painless, but I had been for 2 hour XC ski just prior to having it which should give some aches and pains anyway.
I'd be interest to know how you feel tomorrow, I was fine all day yesterday but it hit me this morning about 5am. My headaches gone but I'm very achy and fatigued still, and am sacking off bike training tonight.
A colleague had the az one yesterday, didn't get much sleep with flu like symptoms. Apparently feels better this afternoon.
I didn't get anything other than a sore arm from the Pfizer one
She said she was, although they’ve dealt with more suicides in the last year than they have covid deaths.
While that is a horrible anecdote… it doesn’t tell us much. Many, many more people have died from Covid than suicide over the last year. And I have seen no data showing a big rise in the suicide rate over previous years either*, although it is often claimed by people that spread other misinformation about the pandemic that they have increased greatly.
[ *although a rise is expected, as they have been rising year on year for a while now, sadly ]
You're right, it is only anecdotal. But was surprising nonetheless.. Maybe they don't do pick ups from hospitals. I didn't ask.
My SIL is a receptionist at a doctor's surgery in Kent. She had a 60+ healthy couple that were adamant that they didn't want the vaccine but didn't see why that was a reason they wouldn't be able to travel abroad as everyone else will have had it...
I thought all nhs staff got it ?
He's subcontractor not NHS staff.
Apparently the risk assessments say there's not enough vaccine...
Which is not a risk assessment, it's a reason.
To be fair, the control measures they have in place are excellent and it's unlikely theres an issue - now that's more a risk assessment.
While that is a horrible anecdote… it doesn’t tell us much. Many, many more people have died from Covid than suicide over the last year.
Normal year is 6-7000 suicides a year in the UK I think. Even if, God forbid, lockdown caused that to double, it pales next to 112,000 (and counting) Covid deaths, plus all those with long term complications.
I’d be quite astonished if suicide rates haven’t taken a sharp rise. You can’t expect anything else with the social, economic, physical and mental health impacts we’ve seen. I don’t think you’ll see actual evidence for that until the latter part of this year.
But as already said, we’re not talking 6 figures as we are with Covid19.
She said she was, although they’ve dealt with more suicides in the last year than they have covid deaths.
The WhatsApp group from the mental health course I did a few years ago has been silent for months but since christmas there has been messages of 4 out of the 16-strong group making attempts, 2 were successful. We only used the group to coordinate meeting times and places for the 3 month course as it moved about a bit due to the centre undergoing a refit but a few of them kept in touch with each other. Hearing that some have taken the ultimate step has hit home quite hard.
This whole thing is going to put serious pressure on MH services for years to come.
MH, like the rest of the NHS, was creaking before Covid, not sure how it can be funded and just as importantly staffed to cope with the aftermath of the pandemic, plus presumably ongoing endemic levels of Covid.
More taxes - shake the magic money tree - scrap HS2 and all transport infrastructure spending until the NHS is back on its feet. This has shown how important the NHS is to the country.
MH needs attention, my experience with the NHS and childrens services has been stressful to say the least
We can afford all those things.
We have poor public mental health services, especially for those which used to and now more barely do assist schools, because the people who control the spending use private mental health specialists and private education.