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yeah we did, looks like it's the 2nd wave...
The best way to deal with it is to lock up the few people most vulnerable to misinformation and Great Barrington bollox and let the rest of us live our lives, I guess.
Exactly. I’ve seen the figure of one in 10 get long covid. Whether thats true or not, my mate, a 38 year old nurse, no underlying issues and she ended up in hospital and is still off work over a month later. For young people the ‘death rate’ is not the figure we need to be concerned about.
I'd heard 1 in 20, but even so, that's not great odds for the young, fit and no underlying issues brigade
Be interested to know what Tired’s latest thoughts on schools opening is. I think a few pages ago he was suggesting after Easter? The government seem to be suggesting a one back, all back approach. Therefore surely the 8th is too early?
@tpbiker @nickc
I should clarify. As a gp I’m in the dark about who will be allowed a group 6 vaccine because of asthma. My comments were mainly to say that the gps and pharmacists on the meeting last night had assumed perhaps naively that eligibility fir flu jab was the ticket. We haven’t been told yet.
As nickc says, we will be provided with a search that will come from the ccg and when run in our clinical system it will spit out a list for us to invite.
We don’t systematically code patients with either asthma or severe asthma though, so I think it will be more nuanced than that.
It would be possible to risk stratify asthmatics based on information in the records for things like hospital admissions, itu admissions for asthma, courses of steroids prescribed, doses of preventer inhaler prescribed, regularity of reliever inhaler use etc etc. There is software that is probably already doing this- pincer tool etc. This will put the patients in priority order fir getting the vaccine. Then someone needs to decide where on the list the cutoff is. This might be based on risk of death or it might be based on numbers of vaccine available. It won’t be decided by individual practices though.
Free Member
Figures are reporting a slight delay in Scotland unfortunately.
The number of 80-year-olds vaccinated in Scotland by Friday stood at 13% – in Wales it was 24%, in Northern Ireland it was 45% and in England it was 56% – some four times the Scottish figure.
Nicola Sturgeon originally ignored the offer of help from the British armed forces but is only now allowing them to step in, so hopefully things will get moving now.
I hope the "British" armed forces are available to help out in England as the vaccination rate there is starting to look pretty poor.
There are 10,000 St John’s trained volunteer vaccinators coming online, as well as people being recruited by the NHS. As we get more vaccine there will be a lot more of us to do it.
Those Scotland figures are correlating with the ‘do the hardest to reach first approach’
Dants, that’s actually quite impressive, is there a time frame for that?
The best way to deal with it is to lock up the few people most vulnerable to misinformation and Great Barrington bollox and let the rest of us live our lives, I guess.
Theres some truth in that. I still think Anti Vaxxers are going to be thrown under a bus next winter, trouble is they’ll take those unable to accept vaccination due to medical reasons with them.
fatmountain, Can I ask you a question are you in one of the initial groups to be vaccinated? If so I think its pretty hypocritical to suggest a younger group just because the virus has less impact shouldn't get it. I don't know about you but most the people i see working in hospitality are pretty young so it would be nice to give them some protection.
I asked a few pages back but got no answer, assume no one knows but I'll ask again.
I think I read that those suffering with long Covid, might be helped by having a vaccine. Something to do with the vaccine killing any residual virus?
Plus, thanks again Tired. You're posts about the vaccine and everything else make me feel slightly more positive about the situation.
Piemonster - the first people have started already. In my team of 36, 3 are on line & the rest of us are awaiting final admin sign off.
With the NHS recruitment, that’s imminent too.
Spoiler alert: if you have the OAZ vaccine also have a good drink of your favourite tipple the night before the morning after, otherwise it’s a waste of a really thumping hangover... :-/
Fathomer
I dont think thats how the rnma vaccine works. Its not denatured virus, like pretty much all vaccines before C-sars.
Its, as i understand from my neighbour, syngenta scientist, more of a genetic coding that tells the body this is alien, attack attack
Once the virus is in, and has multiplied millions of times adding a rnma instruction seems pointless, at least to me
Tired or Thecaptain will actually know the answers and not theorise
Tired. GSk?
Plus the 9 stages on vaccination overlap, we dont do everyone once, as suggested before, we do all over 60s then the oldies need jab2 whilst the 50 somethings are getting jab 1
It seems to be the only thing the government have got right, in my opinion, over the last 12 months
Spoiler alert: if you have the OAZ vaccine also have a good drink of your favourite tipple the night before the morning after, otherwise it’s a waste of a really thumping hangover… :-/
You're clearly feeling sprightly this morning, Kryts!
PS: Precautionary note for pissheads here: 🙂
Once the virus is in, and has multiplied millions of times adding a rnma instruction seems pointless, at least to me
Immunity via infection may or may not be effective at protecting from reinfection, and will most likely wane over time measured in months. Rejecting vaccination because you 'think' you may have some residual immunity is a risky strategy - any immunity you have is transient. As for vaccination dealing with 'residual virus' in long covid, the precise mechanisms behind LC are poorly-understood, so it's highly debateable whether vaccination would influence them. What we know is that vaccination is likely to be protective against serious illness caused by covid reinfection.
But this is extremely rare while vulnerable people in poorer countries have a much higher chance of dying?
I expect there are no figures to back your assertion that it is extremely rare as the patient dying from COVID is what goes on the certificate not that their immune system went in warp mode and hastened their end. A luck of the draw thing and we don't want people to lose that lottery.
You’re clearly feeling sprightly this morning, Kryts!
PS: Precautionary note for pissheads here:
I didn't drink, what I'm trying to say is I feel like I have a major hangover. Woke up at 5am - thumping headache, dry mouth, aches and pains. Still, its a small sacrifice for the good of everyone.
Kryton - you must feel 🥳 having been jabbed. I managed to get my mum vaccinated (72) by getting an appt at the big new centre via a hotline number, and it was such a relief. I’ve been nagging her every day since to stay safe for a few weeks post jab too.
I think for so many of us, the whole pandemic has been a window into the life of others who give selflessly all their life. As well as the NHS there are so many volunteers out there. The lead in my St John’s Team has a day job looking after the homeless. It’s very humbling and brings a new view on what is important. I look back to 20 year old me and realise how wrong so many of my views were.
fatmountain, Can I ask you a question are you in one of the initial groups to be vaccinated? If so I think its pretty hypocritical to suggest a younger group just because the virus has less impact shouldn’t get it.
No, I'm 36. Trying to understand what the need is for the entire population to be vaccinated (and it will have to be 2-3 annually for the next few years right?).
Many people I know have said they're outright refusing them (in the country I live, I read it was almost 50% of the population was skeptical), so I think it's critical to understand the strategdy behind a mass vaccination programme - especially the impact of new strains, rather than authoritarian bleeting of "lock them up" etc., (both unrealistic and highly counter-productive to anyone with half a brain).
I think it’s too early to say how frequently vaccinations will be needed. I’d be very surprised at 3 times a year, where is the source for that?
Annual would be my guess. But that’s just an uneducated guess.
Are you in France or the US by any chance Fatmountain?
I didn’t drink, what I’m trying to say is I feel like I have a major hangover.
Yeah, I got that! 🙂 You should feel better soon, hopefully.
Kryton – you must feel 🥳 having been jabbed.
I kind of do and don't. I do feel incredibly grateful, and as currently the sole earner with 2 kids and an immunity compromised wife its good that my chances of getting sick enough to be in away in hospital will be heavily reduced in a few weeks.
At the same time I feel incredibly guilty, I'm way outside the current groups IMO and it worries me there's someone less healthy that could have benefited more from my jab. However I went when I was asked and didn't force the issue, so what can I do?
edit: FM, I think preliminary studies are showing reduced transmission. Also by the time it gets to your age group it will be in an awful lot of arms so personal safety shouldn't be that much of a concern. Your age group won't be 35-40 for ever and need to build immunity. Your age group (and mine fwiw) are still at risk of long covid.
Don't want the jab? Crack on - it's your life. However I think you may find certain aspects of life are no longer open to you. I don't think that's right or wrong I just think this is the practical situation you will encounter and tbh I can't muster any concern.
At the same time I feel incredibly guilty, I’m way outside the current groups IMO
If your missus is immunocompromised, you're getting the jab to offer additional protection to her, it's not for you.
Trying to understand what the need is for the entire population to be vaccinated
You've not read the reports about the risks of long covid in the young and healthy then? Or the fact that vaccinating the less at risk may help the vulnerable who cannot be vaccinated?
Hadn't realised you weren't in the UK, I think every country is seeing this through a different lens.
Trying to understand what the need is for the entire population to be vaccinated
because if you have more people who have a lower viral load (because they've been vaccinated), the disease they pass on (as vaccine doesn't prevent spread) will be better resisted by other people who've also been vaccinated, and so on...The more folk who've been vaccinated, the quicker the effect will be and the sooner we can return to normal. remember that this disease is asymptomatic in a 1/3 of people, so they don't know they're spreading it, those people (often younger) need to be less infectious . The "Lock-'em-up" routine is to slow the spread so as to not overwhelm healthcare services, a secondary effect to to reduce infection rates.
We won't need 2-3 vaccines every year, we will, however probably need an annual vaccine for the next couple of years.
EDIT: but even if we did need a couple of shots a year, surely that would be infinitely preferable to the current situation
If your missus is immunocompromised, you’re getting the jab to offer additional protection to her, it’s not for you.
Is that right? I didn't know that was a measure. She has Lupus FWIW, and can't have the Jab yet / has an as yet unknown reaction to COVID of course. I would have put myself in Group 6:
a chest complaint or breathing difficulties, including bronchitis, emphysema or severe asthma"
I suffered badly from chest infections before I was provided with Clinel/Salbutomal. Anyway its a moot point now.
Don't feel guilty. Anyone offered it should take it.
I think I read that those suffering with long Covid, might be helped by having a vaccine. Something to do with the vaccine killing any residual virus?
All vaccines deliver some form of spike protein to the immune system. Whether it be via on-board production (mRNA and Ox/AZ) or injection of actual protein (Novovax, JnJ, GSK) or even intact deactivated whole virus.
This should serve as a boost to your immune system to activate any pre-existing immune cells that were laid down ready after the first infection (memory B cells). We don't know a lot about Long Covid, but it may be residual organ infection is one driver of pathogenesis. Or not. In any event, having the vaccine will boost cellular and humoral (antibody) immunity and that may help with any residual virus and protect against reinfection (about 5% within 6 months for healthcare workers with high exposure, probably 24mo for the rest of us).
The chickenpox/shingles vaccine works just this way as a boost to damp down the residual dormant virus (and I would if offered! disclaimer I work for GSK so my opinion only, but I've seen bad shingles). Long Covid may, however, instead be an ongoing inflammatory disease that is set off by the viral infection but after clearing virus, tissue damage, such as lung fibrosis or kidney damage, may have little association with virus.
We don't know. Having said that, I was ill again yesterday. Probably unrelated, but I note that when my immune system gets excited fighting off something, I now get pain where I had COVID (lungs) in addition to other areas that are susceptible to the drivers of immunity (called cytokines) (neck and wrist).
Immunology and neuroscience are my favorite areas of research.
For quite a few hours I've had to step away from this thread due to some distasteful posts.
Thank you people for getting it back on track.
March last year 2 scientist friends of ours explained what a pandemic was, so hubby and I had a chat and decided this was going to be long term and our lives wouldn't be normal again, but there would be a new normal.
What I can't understand is why others are thinking it's going to be normal. We will all have to tweak our lives and live a little differently. Obviously it's going to be extremely hard for some. But from reading the posts from people on this thread who are "who are in the know", the new normal won't be as bad as I feared.
Edit - Thanks TiRed - I hope you can fully recover as soon as is humanly possible (saying this as someone who has had post viral fatigue syndrome.)
@kryton57
It might be worth contacting her doc about the vaccine.
My cousin has sle (aged 41) and had the vaccine last week. I'm not sure which one though so it might make a difference
Thanks @singletrackmind & @TiRed so basically unknown but unlikely. Long Covid scares the shit out of me to be honest. I'm 39 so highly unlikely I'll die or be really unwell but months of suffering sounds awful and I feel for those that are. TiRed, I really hope you're back to your M25 laps soon (I think that's you anyway).
The “Lock-’em-up” routine is to slow the spread so as to not overwhelm healthcare services, a secondary effect to to reduce infection rates.
Not referring to lockdowns but the attitude of putting people in prison if they refuse the vaccine. Like I said, using this rhetoric only plays into the hands of the anti-vaxers and will be extremely counter-productuve in the long-run.
because if you have more people who have a lower viral load (because they’ve been vaccinated), the disease they pass on (as vaccine doesn’t prevent spread) will be better resisted by other people who’ve also been vaccinated, and so on
I think I understand. So how can asymptomatic people infect others if they have such a low viral load? Is it viral load which determines not only how bad the symptoms are (hence front-line workers getting extremely sick and dying) but how contagious you are (and how easily detected it is with testing)?
TiRed, I really hope you’re back to your M25 laps soon (I think that’s you anyway).
It may be some time. But I hope so too. Garage full of bikes and trikes feeling unloved. Aerobic exercise is currently 30 min on the rowing machine a few times a week. But I am walking at pace (zone 1/2) for an hour or more daily.
The vaccine is everyone’s first infection experience to prevent serious morbidity disease in those that might otherwise be susceptible (we don’t really know who btw). Passive vaccination with antibodies will be an option for those with compromised immunity.
Expect annual to triannual, declining with time as we build immune experience. One thing that may come out of this is mass combined annual covid and influenza vaccines for all. Uk has a pretty rubbish record with influenza. You won’t need 3x a year, even for modest genetic variants. Ignore the doomongers because the science is still uncertain. But coronaviruses have been around a while. I am however confident that this one will not look hugely different to the other four, albeit at the higher end of the nastiness for some when first infected.
Fatmountain - viral load doesn't seem to correlate with symptomatic or asymptomatic infection.
The presence of symptoms is probably down to something else as if i remember correctly there is not much difference in viral load in infected people with symptoms or not.
The vaccines should reduce viral load and do reduce symptoms but the two may not be directly linked
So how can asymptomatic people infect others if they have such a low viral load?
If you live with some-one who is vulnerable (your 85 yr old gran or your dad with diabetes for example), they may be more susceptible while you show only mild symptom (or none at all). It's a small risk, to be sure, but this all started with one person giving it to another person...
Not referring to lockdowns but the attitude of putting people in prison if they refuse the vaccine.
Has anyone on here actually suggested that?
@grahamt1980 - thanks for the feedback, good to know. She is in contact with her consultant.
Not referring to lockdowns but the attitude of putting people in prison if they refuse the vaccine.
Has that been suggested in France? don't think that's the right way to go about persuading folk to act communally
https://thorax.bmj.com/content/76/1/61
Article on viral load in asymptomatic covid.
Admittedly a small sample size
TiRed
It may be some time. But I hope so too. Garage full of bikes and trikes feeling unloved. Aerobic exercise is currently 30 min on the rowing machine a few times a week. But I am walking at pace (zone 1/2) for an hour or more daily.The vaccine is everyone’s first infection experience to prevent serious morbidity disease in those that might otherwise be susceptible (we don’t really know who btw). Passive vaccination with antibodies will be an option for those with compromised immunity.
As I say, I genuinely hope you recover and sometime soon. It must be so frustrating. I'm pulling my hair out having not mountain biked since the end of October due to where I live but I'm still road biking.
On your second bit, this is what I keep telling myself when I see people saying the vaccines won't work against different variants and it makes me feel a little better. Not ideal but a lot better than nothing at all I think. Thanks again 🙂
The best way to deal with it is to lock up the few people most vulnerable to misinformation and Great Barrington bollox and let the rest of us live our lives, I guess.
Has that been suggested in France?
Has it? No idea. I see this sort of attitude on forums / news comment sections.
Here in Spain there is quite a high level of mistrust in Government and this is probably reflected in skepticisim. I read that only 40% were willing to have it immediately, with a further 16% "wait and see".
Here in Spain there is quite a high level of mistrust in Government and this is probably reflected in skepticisim.
Have any of the vaccines been developed by the Spanish government?
@kyrton57
You won't have had the jab for reasons associated with your asthma, you certainly wouldn't be in group 4 and probably wouldn't even qualify for group 6 from what you just described
The doc will, quite rightly, have used a bit of common sense and used discretion to get you added, based on your wife's situation.
If it was my wife who had a compromised immune system, I would not feel remotely guilty in getting it, even if the evidence it stops transmission is Ltd.