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There really feels like there’s no hope for humanitys behaviour sometimes:
https://apple.news/Aoji4FdV3QtmcldNh9AfsNA
TDLR, people selfishly flock out of the cities and crowd bars pre-lockdown encouraged by weatherspoons 99p a pint. That’s should help things peak and spread to the rural areas quite nicely.
FFS.
I've worked with the military to help with flooding. In their own words they're a blunt instrument. They have an objective and work to achieve it in the timeframe given. They're not really about nuance and the social consent that police negotiate all the time.
Given the levels of mental health issues, Intoxication and entitled-ness they're likely encounter It would be an exceedingly challenging task asking them to 'police' a lockdown.
There’s more than a few problems with that.
Apart from a small number of RPs and RMPs it’s not like they’ve got thousands of “our Boys” with any sort of Police Experience, and when they’ve been pressed into that role before, as in NI it’s been nothing short of a disaster, so short of given the Gammons a bit of a chubby, I don’t see much benefit.
They also have no Police powers in the UK.
Having the Army on the streets helping to build field hospitals or helping with natural disasters has a great, positive effect on the Public. Having a Aggressively spoken (relative to most members of the public) 19 year old Squadie on every street corner asking to where you’re going all the time, will have the opposite effect.
THIS. +many, many times..
Let the Old Bill do the policing & the Services the logistics. The Army isn’t trained to do police work & visa versa. I can only see any attempt to do so having a negative effect.
Pubs busy last night, roads busy this morning, it almost feels normal. Every person I spoke to at the running club last night is back at work today, if they can work from home they are, if they can't then they're going in. There was no panic like last time, more of a "well, this is a bit crap, see you at Christmas".
There will be much less buy-in this time round, I fully expect people to be gathering outside, in gardens, etc. and, particularly if said people are young, I don't blame them 1 little bit.
The BoE has just printed £150 billion to help out the needy.
Anyone care to explain how this helps?
But increasing the role of the forces now, without having used the last 9 months to prepare in every detail for it, would be as big a failure as any this government’s made in their year of total failure.
when you put it like that, it seems like a dead cert...
They’re not really about nuance and the social consent that police negotiate all the time
Not a bad thing?
Police> "Hello Sir, I appreciate you are enjoying a walk with your friends but please understand theirs a lockdown in place so can I kindly ask you to disperse separately observing social distancing and return to your homes?"
Army> "Get indoors mate. Now"
So rather than redistribute said police who are trained, equipped and skilled at dealing with the public your answer is… The army.
Nope absolutely not we don't need the army machine gunning civilians as Churchill ordered in Liverpool... though quite frankly saying Police a trained or skilled is a fantasy since they sit in the council offices and their interaction with "the public" is "you have a crime reference number so stop wasting our time". We are told they are in the council offices but I haven't actually seen them so really who knows, perhaps they are working from home at the moment?
All our policing is retro-active and as remote as possible... cameras and such and when someone gets stabbed they'll fly a helicopter around for a tank of fuel. When store security catch a shoplifter they'll pick them up... etc.
The example above with the parking on double yellows is apparently a civil matter to be deal with by the council... not their problem until someone gets killed. Crime prevention essentially just means recording less crime.
We very obviously don't have the resources to enforce this short of actually shooting people so we can only "ask". Unfortunately this is also a no-go as even Boris fans know he lies as a matter of opening his mouth and the constant U turns just mean you pick whichever set of "rules" and then plead the "Cummings defense" .
Nope absolutely not we don’t need the army machine gunning civilians as Churchill ordered in Liverpool…
Yes, that's exactly what we were wanting to happen by making the suggestion that maybe the forces might be able to help.
Lots of people have expressed perfectly sensible reasons why it isn't a good idea, but you went there.
I don't think anyone suggesting the forces could be used was even imagining that they would be carrying weapons.
I'd like to apologise for being involved in the tangent the thread has taken, can we please get back on track on now.
Well, the roads in Sheffield are as busy as ever so I assume people are ignoring the lockdown. As Steve said, short of actually starting to shoot people I don't see how people are going to be convinced to stay home.
The BoE has just printed £150 billion to help out the needy.
Anyone care to explain how this helps?
It'll support the furlough scheme. In turn, that protects us from people breaking the rules because they need to work. Hopefully it'll also support those suffering the most financially. Hopefully it won't support the bank balances of the mates of cabinet ministers.
We're trying to workout the correct thing to do - asking the hive mind as my google fu is weak today.
If you're waiting for a test result (likely to be positive as MrsF is displaying symptoms shortly after a teacher she works with has tested positive)- should you keep your kids at home from school to prevent possible transmission?
Understand if you're positive then everyone in the household isolates.
Ta
Yes. Waiting for test, positive test OR symptoms means your household self-isolates.
Thanks for the confirmation Martin, that's what were doing anyway.
Not a bad thing?
Police> “Hello Sir, I appreciate you are enjoying a walk with your friends but please understand theirs a lockdown in place so can I kindly ask you to disperse separately observing social distancing and return to your homes?”
Army> “Get indoors mate. Now”
Yeh it's an extremely bad thing. It would never end well when people are already extremely stressed and being told what to do by someone in the army. Ever heard the saying you catch more flies with honey.
Lots of people have expressed perfectly sensible reasons why it isn’t a good idea, but you went there.
No I didn't I just pointed out the police can't police it.
Well, the roads in Sheffield are as busy as ever so I assume people are ignoring the lockdown. As Steve said, short of actually starting to shoot people I don’t see how people are going to be convinced to stay home.
Exactly.. we need to find a different way.
I'm sure some people on here can't actually say as they are serving but I've been told how close we were to bringing out the armed forces last lockdown.
I'm equally convinced that with or without guns this will be a complete disaster.
Plenty of people are ready to give the police or army a good kicking.
I’m sure some people on here can’t actually say as they are serving but I’ve been told how close we were to bringing out the armed forces last lockdown.
Ooh get you Tarquin!
Ooh get you Tarquin!
People I ride with and certainly not Tarquin's
I'm conflicted about this. It's not the best idea but some people are so self-entitled that an angry squaddie shouting in their face scaring the Bejasus out of them might be the only way to convince them to stop being an arse.
How does one apply for a share of this £150 million?
Plenty of people are ready to give the police or army a good kicking.
They'd be better advised to direct their frustration at the incompetent government who've mishandled this, and the selfish assholes who are flouting the rules and dragging this out.
I think ElShalimino covers my view on this quite nicely.
How does one apply for a share of this £150 million?
I think you need to be unemployed, furloughed, or on the brink of financial ruin. Fill your boots.
How does one apply for a share of this £150 million?
If you know the right people theres no end to the financial aid you can access
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1324248423911071744?s=20
Anyone hear the gym owner on 5live there?.
Some ligitimate points, ie garden centres and dog groomers being open in England, not exactly essential. But by god she's dense, Polis were on straight after, saying she'll be shut down and fined £1000.
Well, the roads in Sheffield are as busy as ever so I assume people are ignoring the lockdown. As Steve said, short of actually starting to shoot people I don’t see how people are going to be convinced to stay home.
If only there was a way to know how British people will act during "Lockdown 2".
Oh wait, Hi everyone from Wales! We're coming towards the end of ours now, so I might be able to give you a little bit of an insight.
Don't expect the roads to be as quiet at the were in Spring because, there's loads of reasons behind this, people are still going to work, taking their kids to school, going to the supermarket, going for a drive-through coffee, this is how the Gov want it, it's low risk activities in low-risk, well managed venues keeping the tills ringing. Yes infections will happen due to these activities, but they're not aiming for an R rate of 0, as it's impossible, they're aiming for 1, or below.
I'm sure the news will report the Police will break up a rave here or there, and some people will defy the rules and go and see a friend or relative in their home, but the majority won't and those that do are lower risk than normal as even though they're cheating the rules, they will still be mixing with fewer people than otherwise.
We (Wife and I) were pretty stressed about going into lockdown again, but mostly it's life as normal for us, we go to school, Youngest is in school, Eldest is distance learning. The shop down the road is open, the supermarket is open, even if you can't buy tights for your daughter to go to school, but you can buy as much Booze and fireworks as you like... anyway.
At least you guys can travel for exercise.
I’m conflicted about this. It’s not the best idea but some people are so self-entitled that an angry squaddie shouting in their face scaring the Bejasus out of them might be the only way to convince them to stop being an arse.
We need more Windsor.
Don’t expect the roads to be as quiet at the were in Spring because, there’s loads of reasons behind this, people are still going to work, taking their kids to school, going to the supermarket, going for a drive-through coffee, this is how the Gov want it, it’s low risk activities in low-risk, well managed venues keeping the tills ringing. Yes infections will happen due to these activities, but they’re not aiming for an R rate of 0, as it’s impossible, they’re aiming for 1, or below.
This, we were talking about exactly this last night. Pretty much every major retailer has a "click and collect" scheme on the go, so this balance of isolation vs limited points of contact at retail balance the Government strategy vs total lockdown a bit.
Mrs K tried it yesterday at Sainsbury's. PPE protected man locates your car in the car park designated area, dumps your unbagged shopping by your boot in crates and steps away. You load into car and drive off while he steps forward to disinfect and wipe down the crates. Mrs K gets home and wipes everything down before its put away. I thought that was pretty good.
Plus to do that, as least some fuel is required. Very high tax on fuel don't you know...
it’s low risk activities in low-risk, well managed venues keeping the tills ringing. Yes infections will happen due to these activities, but they’re not aiming for an R rate of 0, as it’s impossible, they’re aiming for 1, or below.
They need to explain this reasoning far more clearly. It's not about "essential", it's about lower risk activities.
The only way to prevent any anomalies is to just ban leaving the house altogether. But the NHS needs to function, and those staff need certain things to be able to go to work, and so it snowballs
MoreCash
They’d be better advised to direct their frustration at the incompetent government who’ve mishandled this
I don't disagree .. but
and the selfish assholes who are flouting the rules and dragging this out.
See that's the REALITY.... many people are sick of the lies and U turns from the government and can't tell them apart anymore. A trivial example is where can we ride? Last lockdown Crown Estate shut Swinley... this time it's open... so understandably people are asking why last time they could cycle through the park but not in the Forest but this time they can cycle in the Forest. I'm assuming that no clear guidance has been given in either case so the NT/FC/Crown Estates etc. are just making it up as they go along (as best they can not being epidemologists other than maybe treee diseases)
Add to that the army have hardly helped themselves by using lockdown to fence off land when the rest of us weren't allowed outside.
Meanwhile Jack can work but Jill can't etc..
So sure its the fault of the government but they won't be the ones facing the anger... I don't remember Thatcher picking up a baton and shield in the Poll Tax riots or miners strike... which was for me a watershed as to the politicisation of the police. We had a lot more Police then... now I don't see hope they even hope to control the national resentment without firearms.
If you’re waiting for a test result (likely to be positive as MrsF is displaying symptoms shortly after a teacher she works with has tested positive
Must be a mistake, teachers are immune and schools are covid secure!
They need to explain this reasoning far more clearly. It’s not about “essential”, it’s about lower risk activities.
They burned this in March.
The only way to prevent any anomalies is to just ban leaving the house altogether. But the NHS needs to function, and those staff need certain things to be able to go to work, and so it snowballs
No, people need to eat and drink... and now it's getting to winter they need heating.
The issue is this binary type thinking....it's pretty clear people need food so telling people they can't buy food is simply not going to work.
What is NEEDED is leadership something that has been entirely lacking with policy set by reaction to "press and social media leaks"
Instead we need to have supermarkets but they can't enforce people wearing masks...
Don't want to wear a mask... just say you are exempt and noone can even ask you why.
Indeed, I know people who wear a mask for hay fever and claim exemption indeed many think being exempt is the same as "banned from".
Our local shop has kids not wearing masks wearing uniforms from secondary schools... (they don't even need to be in the shop)
another U Turn
While restaurants, cafes, pubs and bars have been ordered to shut, food deliveries and takeaways are still allowed.
“Pubs, bars, restaurants must close except for takeaway and delivery services,” Mr Johnson said during his speech.
The government later clarified that takeaway of alcohol will not be allowed. However, this has since been overturned and it has been confirmed that pubs will be able to serve takeaway pints to customers who order their drinks in advance.
Seems top defy logic ...
The government website states that auction houses, tailors, car washes, tobacco and vape shops must also shut.
However, it adds that non-essential retail can remain open for delivery to customers and click-and-collect.
Anyone who smokes accepts it is going to kill them and they will be "fined" thousands per year...
It doesn't take a genius to work out addicts will get a fix one way or another.
Plus to do that, as least some fuel is required. Very high tax on fuel don’t you know…
Supermarkets have already knocked about 3-4p off the price of a litre citing low demand. Won't be long before all the forecourts follow suit so I'm looking forward to a full tank of fuel for a few £ less than normal soon.
Rishi Sunak is about to announce that Furlough is to be extended until March
That tells us everything we need to know. Did anyone ever believe we were coming out of lockdown before then?
Actually.... I'm sure certain areas will. And we all know which. But those of us who never really came out of lockdown anyway, were already resigned to this being until next spring
Good news. Should have been announced late August early September, as Labour were pushing for. Too late for many, now.
Its at least an acknowledgement of reality.
It's going to be interesting to see what help small businesses forced to shut will get. If any. There might not be many of them left by March
A trivial example is where can we ride? Last lockdown Crown Estate shut Swinley… this time it’s open… so understandably people are asking why last time they could cycle through the park but not in the Forest but this time they can cycle in the Forest. I’m assuming that no clear guidance has been given in either case so the NT/FC/Crown Estates etc. are just making it up as they go along (as best they can not being epidemologists other than maybe treee diseases)
Last time CE were pretty clear that they did this to avoid adding extra load to the NHS through broken bikers heading for A&E. This time there's (currently) capacity in A&E for the regular concussions and broken collar bones that arrive from the gnarrfest of Swinley, so we can all schralp to the maxxx.
Rishi Sunak is about to announce that Furlough is to be extended until March
That tells us everything we need to know. Did anyone ever believe we were coming out of lockdown before then?
That's good news, I would say that's the Goverment finally giving up the idea that we have the NHS capacity to follow the US in letting us all fend for ourselves, or that a bit of rose tinted nostalgia and PMA will allow us to keep on as normal and handle Covid.
The Situation in England is different to Wales, apart from Cardiff we're pretty sparsely populated, but here out LD ends on Monday and the new rules are more relaxed than they were pre fire break. We expect to carry on like this until mid-December, then there will be some kind of mindless Xmas amnesty, followed by another firebreak, maybe even between Cmas and NYE to avoid that whole mess.
With a Vaccine likely for a few key people Q4 2020 or Q1 2021 the next fire break will probably/hopefully/maybe/possibly/sort of, be the last.
Last time CE were pretty clear that they did this to avoid adding extra load to the NHS through broken bikers heading for A&E. This time there’s (currently) capacity in A&E for the regular concussions and broken collar bones that arrive from the gnarrfest of Swinley, so we can all schralp to the maxxx.
How many people a year actually NEED A&E from Swinley?
It's far far safer than cycling (or probably driving) TO Swinley or riding thropugh the car park and 90%+ of the ambulances are probably not needed it's simply people abusing the system that they will do from anywhere.
Compare that with somewhere like Hindhead or even Peaslake/Holmbury with hidden and unexpected big gaps jumps etc. or people riding along footpaths etc.
So whereas it might reduce strain from Swinley (Crown Estates) it's not very joined up thinking if it pushes more people into more accidents elsewhere.
someone just sent me an interview with a bloke (scientist) Mike Yeadon...basically saying the test that everything's based on is bobbins. he also says he thinks this was all over months ago.
I dont know how to link it but he sounds convincing - but what do I know
anyone seen this?
he seems a legit scientist? https://www.crunchbase.com/person/michael-yeadon
That tells us everything we need to know. Did anyone ever believe we were coming out of lockdown before then?
Nope.
Lockdown 2 will end at the start of December to allow everyone to enjoy the magical festival of superspreading, and then it'll be lockdown 3 in January.
Lockdown 2 will end for the south at the start of December to allow everyone apart from those frightful northerners to enjoy the magical festival of superspreading, and then it’ll be lockdown 3 in January.
FTFY
Living in a police state
https://www.hull****/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/police-arrested-care-home-mother-4670150
No, not a police state. Care homes are not just accommodation, there is a duty of care that can be in conflict with the impulses of relatives.
Rishi Sunak is about to announce that Furlough is to be extended until March
That's a welcome development. If the national lock down ends with regional tiers the hard right no doubt will be arguing either they need furlough in tier one or against it altogether claiming their businesses are carrying those other tiers.
One from the laws of unintended consequences - Boris and the Great Christmas Tree Shortage?