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The Coronavirus Dis...
 

The Coronavirus Discussion Thread.

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Worth remembering that it’s 60,000 with measures in place. Without those measures we were talking 250,000+.

Dont dispute that and also understand your comment.

The stories are vital when it comes to getting the public (us) to accept short term inconvenience

Trouble is I dont think Johnson and Cummings think beyond the superficial. It wasn't long ago Johnson was saying it would all be over by Christmas. I still think re-opening hospitality and the Eat Out to Help Out schemes were foreseeable mistakes, not so much because of an increase in direct transmission as a result, more a the fact it sent a message to many that it was business as usual when it clearly wasn't.

Well done TiRed, nice to see someone who actually contributed getting recognised.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 2:30 pm
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It wasn’t long ago Johnson was saying it would all be over by Christmas.

And that misplaced hubris is so damaging to trust in the government, and measures they have to introduce this winter. The wrong man at the wrong time. We still need to respond to this challenge as a society though. The lack of proper leadership is a serious handicap to that though, for sure.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 2:43 pm
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Congratulations TiRed. Your posts over the last few months have been really helpful. Thank you.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 2:52 pm
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Congratulations TiRed.
You also deserve a special STW award for services to clarity and information.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 3:32 pm
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This will be a big order.

So they'll just license it out and any country can make their own supply?


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 3:38 pm
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not so much because of an increase in direct transmission as a result, more a the fact it sent a message to many that it was business as usual when it clearly wasn’t.

Very much this - probably good intentions for the hospitality industry, but it was at that point that the message "2 metres from anyone not in your household/bubble" was completely lost in the noise, and there was a noticeable increase in people not social distancing. And the government's failure to be able to send out two messages at once was compounded by the media focusing on groups of people all sat round a table happily eating and drinking with no thought whatsover as to "are these 8 people from the same household?", just reinforcing the idea that everything was back to normal.

Lazy thinking government and lazy reporting have been a menace throughout the pandemic


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 3:41 pm
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Congratulations TiRed

What did I miss? You pregnant again!!!


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 4:28 pm
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Chapeau @TiRed. OBE (other bugger’s efforts) 😀


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 4:36 pm
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Well done TiRed and colleagues at GSK.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 5:59 pm
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Yes, well done TiRed!


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 6:05 pm
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Respect feller!


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 6:39 pm
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Can anyone help me with this? Anyone that has been discharged from one hospital to another is being tested every 4 days ad infinitum. I cannot see the logic in this. there must be some I am sure. I get testing a few times to make sure no false negatives but why is this cohort ( but not the patients who haven't moved hospital) being tested every 4 days?


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 7:27 pm
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tj, new introductions to a setting are so much harder to control than endemic infections. In fact it is hard sustain transmission in very small populations without reintroduction. Perhaps they are doing all they can to ensure that an outside case is avoided. If tested positive on first admission and not moved, strict cohorting will already be in place, so testing adds no gain.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 7:36 pm
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These are people who have tested negative before transfer and are then tested every 4 days regardless of status. Not everyone in the unit - only those who have been transferred from the big general hospital are tested every 4 days. I just do not see the value of this being continued ad infinitum. for a couple of weeks yes but I know people who have been tested every 4 days for months despite never having had a positive test.

there must be a rationale but I do not know what it is.

its always possible tho that its managers misinterpreting guidelines I suppose


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 7:48 pm
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I'm really pleased to hear about your award TiRed. I've been quietly coming on here for months now to hear your opinion on the situation. You're my 'offical fact checker'.
Glad it's recognised outside of our community.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 7:52 pm
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TiRed's award also adds some gravitas to the stuff he's posting on here as I'm relaying it to advise my parents! 'Some bloke off the interwebs' doesn't hold quite as much clout as 'Second in the OBE list'.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 8:05 pm
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Can other countries produce it independently of the US?

I think if it came to it that the USA was keeping all the REGN-COV2 to itself the rest of the world would wipe its @rse with whatever patents Regeneron had and contract a load of Indian and Chinese companies to produce it.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 8:22 pm
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there must be a rationale but I do not know what it is.

Poorly defined incubation period and asymptomatic infections would be my guess. A positive is easy to deal with.

‘Some bloke off the interwebs’

I try and give an informed and up to date position on the science and events. I don't give confidential information, but it is surprising just how much information is out there, including the source data. If I haven't explained things clearly enough in layman's terms - tell me. Everyone has a right to understanding the position we are in and how much (and how little) we really know.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 8:34 pm
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Congrats on the OBE, must feel brilliant to be recognised for your work especially when its something so worth while.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 8:39 pm
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Nice one TiRed, big congratulations and thanks for all your posts.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 8:47 pm
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I've been lurking in this thread for a while now and just want to add my congratulations on your award. Well done TiRed and thanks for finding the time to keep us informed.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 8:53 pm
 copa
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Well done for accepting a gong off the British Empire.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 8:53 pm
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Another one raising a glass to you TiRed - your posts are the reason I keep coming back to this thread.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 9:35 pm
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OBE, Congratulations TiRed, well deserved!


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 9:44 pm
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Congrats, TiRed. You’ve been an excellent source of rational, and easy to understand information. Please keep it up. It’s greatly appreciated.

All the best,

Rich


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 10:02 pm
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Congratulations TiRed


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 10:06 pm
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Congratulations and truly well deserved recognition for the work your doing under such a time of stress - thank you tired - the research you are doing will enable myself to hopefully have a future without shielding.

STW petition to get OBE after your username>


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 10:35 pm
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At the start of all of this I did say all models are wrong but some are very useful.

Huge Congrats to TiRed for being the most un-wrongest

😜

Oh and for being a rational voice leading  us through the fog of information, misinformation and hysteria.

Chapeau !!!!


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 10:38 pm
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TiRed is now part of The Establishment and therefore I will be ignoring him 🙂


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 10:47 pm
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Enough now. Back to sums.

I mentioned before that next week’s deaths are predicted by today’s admissions. Up to about 4-500 admissions you can divide by 7. That’s good to within 7 of the likely number. Above that there’s a nice relationship but you’ll need a calculator.

I’ve also written a white paper on whether people would have died anyway because they did not catch flu. Across Europe as a whole, there is little evidence that this is the case. COVID19 has produced genuine excess mortality up to week 35. One predicts that there will be lower influenza mortality this year, but COVID19 will sadly fill its place. We will reach typical annual deaths by mid November this year. Possibly earlier if things go badly in the next few weeks.


 
Posted : 10/10/2020 11:05 pm
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I mentioned before that next week’s deaths are predicted by today’s admissions.

They last a bit longer here with 25% of those who are going to die in hospital lasting more than 2 weeks. One or two weeks from people showing first symptoms to entering hsopital and three to four weeks from symptoms to death.

https://sante.journaldesfemmes.fr/fiches-maladies/2627893-coronavirus-hospitalisation-courbe-reanimation-urgences-france-nombre-de-cas-hopital-covid/

Hospitals are doing better at saving people with only 19% of French hospital admissions ending in death.

https://www.vie-publique.fr/en-bref/276569-premiere-vague-de-covid-19-le-parcours-des-patients-hospitalises

Going back to the Spring when we were discussing how long it would take for the confinement to have an impact on the death rate it became apparent there was a longer lag than expected. This lag applies on the way up too. Following the French positive tests, hospital admissions and deaths again shows a lag of a couple of weeks between admission and death rather than a week. This isn't good news as it says the death rates will be regularly back up into three figures within a couple of weeks on the basis of current positive tests and admissions, and it won't be short lived.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:13 am
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He said predicts, not are the same cases. He’s sharing something useful in terms of seeing where we are going from where we are.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:48 am
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Sorry for replying. Good night.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:49 am
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Congrats TiRed and thank you for your contributions. Not contributed to this thread myself but have read yours and everybody else's post's with interest and it has helped me have a broader understanding of how people throughout the country feel. Once again thanks.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 2:08 am
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Just catching up on this thread while being kept awake due to a house party. Yes, someone has called the police on them!

Well deserved TiRed, good to see someone's hard work in challenging times being recognised. Your posts on here have definitely kept me better informed of what's been going on than I otherwise would have been, even if a lot of it has been above my level of understanding at times. Hopefully your expertise won't be required for too much longer.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 2:20 am
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I’ve also written a white paper on whether people would have died anyway because they did not catch flu. Across Europe as a whole, there is little evidence that this is the case.

Like to read this if u have a link

how covid interacts with flu season will be interesting
The huge investment in treating covid & sars types illnesses, should hopefully lead to a better understanding & treatments for winter flu
Its sad how we accept that regular flu kills 1000s a year, every 5 years or so completely overwhelming the NHS which has often deadly consequences for other illnesses as they compete for ITU beds

Congrats on the honours, do you get to meet the queen? I dare you to have a coughing fit 😜


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 2:28 am
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Hopefully your expertise won’t be required for too much longer.

If I had to guess, another 18 months to return things to “normal”. By then we will have effective and well-tested therapeutics, protection (vaccination or passive antibodies) and a proper testing facility (maybe not XL based). By the timescales I am used to working to in drug development, this is warp speed. I cannot tell you just how urgently this is being worked on. People have no idea.

For example, my most recent drug approval took thirteen years. It’s just been licensed in the US. It was a novel use for a reasonably old drug even then. I’m even prouder of that one to be honest.

The Joint Biosecurity Centre have now automated the types of analytics that I was producing in a bedroom only four months ago (you’ve seen the regional incidence, I don’t analyse that now). Even Chris Witty now talks about the rate of change of incidence - I call that a win! The data standards have gone from manually created nightly XL sheets to proper data with meaningful variable names. When I started, the ECDC cases and deaths data was really the only information around.

[tl:dr] Things are moving very fast by conventional standards, but people really don’t understand just how complex and slow things are normally! Two years was my first prediction to normality. Not much has changed.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 10:01 am
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See, that’s clear communication… not blathering on about back to normal by Xmas.

EDIT : I forgot that the “fast testing to end social distancing” trial was supposed be going on at mass events in Salford right now! The gap between that pie in the sky thinking and the reality in that area now is pretty stark.

https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-tries-to-save-uk-christmas-against-all-coronavirus-odds/

That link is only a month old. Hubris.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 10:26 am
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The Joint Biosecurity Centre have now automated the types of analytics that I was producing in a bedroom only four months ago (you’ve seen the regional incidence, I don’t analyse that now). Even Chris Witty now talks about the rate of change of incidence – I call that a win!

It's crazy how little the experts had in front of them to help their judgements in February/March. Which makes the political failures now even greater. We are at the point we locked down completely at last time (which was widely considered a week or so too late), with no plans to do much more than tinker with hospitality on a local level. And with winter rolling in as well.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 11:02 am
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My Dad was taken into hospital last night with a high temperature and low oxygen levels. This morning they've done an x-ray of the lungs and said they think it's COVID but the test result isn't back yet. They also apparently told him and his wife that if things get worse they will give palliative care only. He's 87, but reasonably fit - is this standard procedure for people of his age?


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:17 pm
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My Dad was taken into hospital last night with a high temperature and low oxygen levels.

Nothing I can add but I sincerely hope it works out for the best, for you and your dad.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:27 pm
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Anyone thinking Drakeford, followed by Sturgeon, will start the national lockdown ball rolling this week and force our English [s]p[/s]muppet to follow suit?


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:35 pm
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He’s 87, but reasonably fit – is this standard procedure for people of his age?

Tends to be. A couple of points tho. Its not always and should not be a "treat to the full / no treatment question". Its about the ceiling of care / treatment ie where you draw the line. So he can and should get oxygen and other drugs / IVs to support him but perhaps not go into ITU / be ventilated

The other point is its sometimes a decision made purely on age whereas other factors should be taken into account like fitness, mental capability and so on

People of that sort of age really tend not to do well in ITU / being ventilated. the damage to them from such invasive treatment is something hard to recover from even for someone half their age.

Perhaps you could ask to discuss it with a senior doctor so you can understand the reasons, the actual limits of care they are offering and potential upsides and downsides of treatment. Second hand info is often poor in this sort of situation as its very emotive so the person you are getting the info from may not relay it to you well. You might have to fight his corner

last aspect is that ITU looks like its going to be under great pressure again - thus needs to be rationed and reserved for those most likely to benefit

Hope that helps a bit. Good luck to him and the rest of the family


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:44 pm
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Thanks TJ, that's really helpful. I suspect that getting to speak to a senior doctor might be a challenge, but I'll give it a try.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:52 pm
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When do the ONS statistics assume a someone case of COVID has finished? For example in my local area the statistics say there has been an increase in cases of +242 but is this a net increase or is it adjusted for how many people have 'finished' their COVID infection? Surely that has a huge impact on the whole data set and R number/cases per 100k.


 
Posted : 11/10/2020 12:56 pm
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