Spain thing is not surprising
I think the government have learnt from their mistakes & are being overly cautious now.
Can see why it's caught some off guard, with government keen to convince us it's safe to go back to work etc
Perhaps should've been clearer about holidays, maybe a traffic light system for countries where there may be a flare up big enough to enforce quarantine.
black sheep
There’s a racial / racist history to that phrase so could you please leave it out of the forum.
thanks.
WTF, is there? Maybe if you're specifically looking for it...
Perhaps my local brewery should rename their brand (they're based in Masham BTW).
maybe a traffic light system for countries where there may be a flare up big enough to enforce quarantine.
I think that's what already exists. I recall Nicola Sturgeon talking about whether or not some countries in the middle category would be on ScotGovs approved/non-quarantine list.
No I haven’t checked and sure as hell CBA either.
Oh - you just made a statement you weren't prepared to back up on the expectation it would just be taken at face value. Have you considered politics?
WTF, is there?
Yes, in the way it’s used to single out people stemming from the origination of the nursery rhyme.
I'm happy to be Edukated, Kryton. I've Googled and Wikied and unless it's used in the "Baa Baa Black Sheep" (which I haven't) context I can't find anything mainstream to say it's racist any more than say "blackmail" which is I hope you'd agree still acceptable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sheep
Every other racist term you've raised I've agreed with you, on this one I'd like to see something main stream saying using black sheep is racist before dropping it to mean one of a group who is different and doesn't conform.
I think that’s what already exists.
No10 briefed there would be a traffic light system… it lasted a day. Sturgeon announced it so as to be inline with the UK gov, and then had it pulled out from under her.
Oh – you just made a statement you weren’t prepared to back up on the expectation it would just be taken at face value. Have you considered politics?
Well I didn't slag you off, TiRed didn't slag you off, so who did?
Is the post holiday quarantine thing even being enforced though?
Seeing how poorly mask wearing is adhered to on trains, I'd be very sceptical anyone will bother
Sturgeon announced it so as to be inline with the UK gov, and then had it pulled out from under her.
Sturgeon has always set her own policies so not sure what was "pulled"?
Correct. There is no confidence that antibody positivity conveys immunity. We are not going to be in an office in any significant capacity in 2020.
As for the govt being overly cautious, cases are trending gently up and they are encouraging us to go out to pubs, restaurants and workplaces more and more. Some caution.
Sturgeon has always set her own policies so not sure what was “pulled”?
The UK traffic light system was pulled.
The UK traffic light system was pulled.
It was only ever a warning. Let Sturgeon set her own policies.
Is the post holiday quarantine thing even being enforced though?
Seeing how poorly mask wearing is adhered to on trains, I’d be very sceptical anyone will bother
A fair chunk of society are selfish enough to only care about themselves so if the government are serious about this (of which I’m not convinced) they should make it an offence to skip quarantine.
It’s a bit like drink driving, if we didn’t have the drink driving laws the roads would be carnage on a Fri/sat night and although it’s likely you won’t kill someone if you drive home pissed, you certainly might and you are putting peoples lives at risk - exactly the same with skipping quarantine.
Let Sturgeon set her own policies.
The Scottish government have actually tried very hard to keep the UK in step, but it’s just about impossible when the government at Westminster briefs contradictory policy so often. The traffic light system for countries was one of those… briefed out to all the national media by No10, but never actually finished and put in place…
Flights booked in jan, and couldn’t claim the £1100 back on insurance because our govt changed it’s travel advice and told us it was safe to travel. For those in their ivory towers I would much have preferred to stay at home but can’t afford to write off that amount of money. Lots of others in the same position. The only reason we came was due to the sunk cost which we couldn’t reclaim and this was a direct result of govt policy. So you can all **** off quite frankly.
What do folk think will happen in schools in the new academic year? I'm torn - at the end of term school was saying 'all aboard for normal classes after the holidays' which is (as I understand it) the government line, but I'm struggling a bit to see how this will work if parents/teachers/children still need to self isolate for two weeks if have been around anyone with symptoms? I suppose I still envisage a need for online learning, but haven't seen this talked about much? If anyone has any links I could check out they'd be appreciated!
Lots of partial (and some complete) school closures… and then it gets messy. If the government was sending schools into the next term with a remit to be ready for mixed learning (some at home, some at school), and provided the help they promised (but have now forgotten) for kids without internet, then these closures could happen in a way that resulted in minimal disruption to the kids involved… as it is… Education will be a lottery next term. Lots of firefighting. Lots of the government passing the responsibility down the line to schools and teachers.
Talk to the school. They're the only ones who will really know what the situation is likely to be.
For those in their ivory towers I would much have preferred to stay at home but can’t afford to write off that amount of money.
If money was the key factor im sure it would have cost less to stay at home! In reality you wanted something to show for your cash, which is understandable. But you must have known you were taking a gamble on the rules not changing, and you lost. No point in bumping your gums about it now.
So do you plan to self isolate for 2 weeks on return, or will you ignore the rules as you think they are stupid?
Now Boris (17.5 st and 5'9'' when he went into hospital) is telling people to lose five pounds and eat out to help out with ten pounds.
Talk to the school. They’re the only ones who will really know what the situation is likely to be.
If only that were true. We know what we've planned for, but are at the mercy of reactive/pragmatic/random/ideological/nudging (delete as appropriate) government decisions as much as anyone.
From September it will be suck it and see...
Super small sample here but based on a trip round Sainsbury Streatham common today, ~15% not wearing a mask and 25-30%, probably 30%, wearing it wrongly ranging from over mouth but not nose to just as a chin warmer.
So maybe enough compliance to be useful? I do still feel like one of the mugs for sticking to the rules though.
Three slightly older guys sitting on the ferry last night, none of them wearing masks. Possibly a gathering of the local asthmatics club.
No point in bumping your gums about it now.
If the government says you can travel, but then, once you’ve left, tells you not to return to work on your return, they have a responsibility to help you or your employer to ensure you have an income while kept at home by government instruction. Why be rude to those caught in a hole created by the government? Your area could be locked down tomorrow, and you might me told not to go to work… will you be ‘bumping your gums’ then if you’re not getting paid because of what the government has forced upon you?
No way I’m risking a trip abroad. If the government wanted to close down the travel industry, without paying to help them, then I suspect they’ve achieved that with this move.
If the government says you can travel, and you decide to go somewhere where indications of a second spike in c19 and widespread behaviour that is likely to increase spread have been reported for weeks (early May for second spike) you’ve kinda made your own bed.
Well, that applies to many areas in the UK. If you visit somewhere in the UK that the government says you can, and then get told afterwards by the government that you now have to stay away from work for two weeks, who pays you what?
Look, this is deliberate, you’ve been primed to say ‘personal responsibility’ as an excuse for the government not offering assistance, even when they are mandating that someone stays at home. You’ve been played.
Every other racist term you’ve raised I’ve agreed with you, on this one I’d like to see something main stream saying using black sheep is racist before dropping it to mean one of a group who is different and doesn’t conform.
Reminds me I got into another Pre-Brexit family debate about a 5 years back which went bad. tbh it started out bad. One of the family was saying ‘’They aren’t British, bla bla’
Sister-in-law is British-born with Ghanian heritage, wife took umbrage from the off but made the ‘mistake’ of saying that she found the ‘us vs them’ narrative offensive and asked how they felt about her sister. Family-member responded with ‘you don’t understand, it’s natural. If you watch white sheep they won’t go near the black ones’*. That was a fun dinner. 😢
*Utter bolx of course.
****ing idiotic. As for the ‘link’ - this is offered only IME, so not sure it’s a common racial epithet, more like a general scapegoat (wait what? Goats now?)
If the government says you can travel, but then, once you’ve left, tells you not to return to work on your return,
It was quite clear..you can travel but the rules may change at any point and you may have to quarentine on return if they did. With that in mind anyone who decided a holiday was that important took a gamble. I think most thought the gamble was probably worth it. If they didn't consider the eventuality of having to quarentine on return then that's just plain stupid of them.
So pretty much this..
If the government says you can travel, and you decide to go somewhere where indications of a second spike in c19 and widespread behaviour that is likely to increase spread have been reported for weeks (early May for second spike) you’ve kinda made your own bed
Back in March I had paid for a holiday to Spain, and 2 weeks before I was due to go i called off, despite the government's official advice it was ok to go. Why..because any sane person could see if I went there was a possibility I wouldn't get to come back any time soon. So I didn't risk it. Not really much difference to the situation now tbh.
I made the same call, and cancelled our France trip. I didn't want the hassle and uncertainty. But that changes nothing... if the government mandates you stay at home, and you can't work from home, they should ensure that either your employer can still pay you (even if at 80% or whatever) or they should offer direct financial assistance. I don't care if they are keeping you at home because you went to Spain, France, Cornwall, Leicester or your local pub... if they are making you stay at home, they should ensure you have an income while they do.
What are your feelings WRT those asked to self isolate during a call from track and trace?
AFAIK there's no indication that employers should pay sick as normal, you should be entitled to SSP, or the self employed would be able to claim against any sickness insurance they might have.
I guess we all pay, one way or another, but it'd probably be nice if there were some joined up thinking. Oh wait - Boris.
Again... it's unclear... Raab was claiming yesterday that your employer can't "punish you" for being kept at home due to track and trace... even when asked about zero hour contracts. And he ignored freelancers etc. This has to be made good... or people will be forced to avoid being traced, and will ignore instructions to stay at home when travelling from another country (be that holiday, visiting family, or for work) that gets removed from the safe list mid trip. Most of us will find the way to fund one two week stay at home instruction... but what happens later in the year if told multiple times to stay at home due to contact tracing? Not everyone has a financial buffer big enough for four, six, eight, ten weeks off between now and Christmas. Clear rules and help for employers are needed, and help for those not helped by employers if the rules allow that to happen.
I am eternally thankful that I can work from home. This is not directly about me. But we're all effected if the government can't join up the dots necessary to make the isolate part of track/trace/islotate work in the manner necessary to control this virus.
Well he's right of course, they can't "punish". They can not pay you, not renew your contract, or just outright sack you. But they can't "punish" you.
The govt's done some things reasonably well, like the furlough scheme. Just insisting that randomly-selected people sit at home for two weeks with no means of support is not one of them. When people get sent to prison, at least they get fed (and heat and water etc).
Mentioned on the lunchtime news there have been a handful of fines issued for breaching quarantine rules, it "might" be enforced
Well he’s right of course, they can’t “punish”. They can not pay you, not renew your contract, or just outright sack you. But they can’t “punish” you.
His choice of words were deliberate, yes, that's why I chose to quote them... suggesting to the public that they are safe... when they are at the mercy of employers... employers that simply might not be able to pay them if they can't work. If the government orders you to stay at home, and your work means you can't work from home, they have to put in rules and help to protect you... otherwise, if the choice is *isolate* or have an income... many people will have to avoid the *isolate* option, won't they... the government must know this.
I'm in France, just driven the length of the West side of the country. No one gives a shit. The mask wearing is for show.
We've heard about four English speaking families down in Arcachon and Biscarosse and seen less than ten UK cars in 2 weeks down here.
Despite the facts @Edukator spouts the French do not distance, they do not observe the rules and the masks are used in the most minimal way possible to comply with the rules and carry on as normal.
But of course, it's entirely down to Brits bringing the disease over. Everything I can see in front of me is a lie.
My ex-boss was French and told me many years ago..."in France we have so many laws and many of them contradict each other. So what we do is choose the ones to obey and ignore the petty ones, or the ones we don't like"
I think this summarises their approach to everything not just CV19
Mentioned on the lunchtime news there have been a handful of fines issued for breaching quarantine rules, it “might” be enforced
Oh dear
the French do not distance, they do not observe the rules and the masks are used in the most minimal way possible to comply with the rules and carry on as normal.
The carry on as normal with a mask bit sounds good news. You're right about distancing in Biscarrosse and other resorts on the west coast, the lack of distancing made the news here and the local authorities imposed mask wearing outdoors in some places:
Hope you had a good holiday anyhow, the weather has been great if nothing else. We won't be going to the west coast till September because it's always packed in Summer and staycations mean some places are unusually busy this year.
Any more comment on black sheep to mean non-conformist, Kryton? I haven't used the n-g expression with it's origins in slave ships since it was pointed it out but would quite like to contiue using the non-conformist black sheep, blackmail, whitewash, brown sugar and other expression which happen to have black, brown or white in them but no racist conotation.
Any more comment on black sheep to mean non-conformist, Kryton?
It took me all of 2 minutes of googling last to extend from the nursery rhyme so the use of "black.." as a racially biased negative so I'm sure you could do the same. Feel free to do your own extended research I'm not interested in an internet debate about it hence I didn't bother posting the links.
What about the term "Black Swan events"?
I’m not interested in an internet debate about it hence I didn’t bother posting the links.
No evidence in anything worth linking then. The nursury rhyme has " Baa baa " at the start which is pretty distictive. I'll make sure I don't use it in a context that could invoke the nursury rhyme.
Shutting down debate isn't the best way to rally people to your cause. I'm open to persuasion you know that, it took me half a dozen clicks to realise that n-g was best not used, and as many to realise that dropping black sheep to mean non-conformist a step too far.
Sorry Kryton, I’ve never heard a harsh use of black sheep. Do we have to get rid of all uses of the word black, or yellow, or red, or brown.
Will left handed folk start demanding we can’t say sinister?
I think this is a case of looking for offence that isn’t meant.
