I just took umbrage
That's an understatement.
Why the delay? If new cases are higher now than they will be in 2 weeks, wouldn’t you want people using PT to be covering faces from now? Can anyone explain the logic here?
Seems slightly silly, maybe they are planning on ramping up service in 2 weeks? They're half admitting that everyone should be wearing masks already in such circumstances. Maybe supplies chain are not ready?
I just took umbrage
That’s an understatement.
Is it, why?
In other news Readings finest tests negative.
I didn't think you were calling us thick AA
Seen the latest on track and trace in the grauniad?
Yeah world class, my a&&!!
I came back to say my original comment this morning was rubbish due to partial info from the Spanish. I believe the figures for just Madrid was 11 on Monday and 12 on Tuesday (it may have been Tuesday & Wednesday but I'm not going to trawl Twitter for the info as it was this morning).
My apologies for misleading the thread.
That grauniad article is depressing - but predictable.
RichPenny
SubscriberWhy the delay? If new cases are higher now than they will be in 2 weeks, wouldn’t you want people using PT to be covering faces from now? Can anyone explain the logic here?
Give people time to prepare? There'll need to be a pretty big public information campaign too.
Kelvin, richpenny,
At last. I've been wearing a mask in confined public spaces for 2 months and it was beginning to get embarrassing given the minimal uptake in face coverings here in Manchester. The growing ambivalence to protocols since the easing of lockdown from VE day onwards has seen that minimal observance drop even lower, leading me to complacency, forgetting my mask on a couple of occasions as I've set off out the door.
Why it wasn't enforced a couple of months ago escapes me entirely. Back in early April I was on here masquerading as the masked crusader, trying to convince others of the benefits of us all using face coverings. It was a lonely position, getting called hysterical and simply wrong on a number of occasions. So I can't just blame the government, there's Turkey's voting for Christmas everywhere, even on mountain bikes.
Baldness a risk factor?
It was a lonely position, getting called hysterical and simply wrong on a number of occasions
You had a couple of allies, I posted on minimum infective dose and the viral load reduction of different types of masks. Quite quickly the French government admitted that the advice that masks weren't effective was to stop a rush on masks. As soon as they'd assured their supplies they did a mea-culpa and reversed the advice with tutorials on how to make your own - about six weeks ago, and then enforced masks on transport when people had had time to make or buy them.
NHS stats showing Hospital deaths for Uk down to very low levels now. Under 40s zero for a few days. Very good news, not trying to be provocative but this thing looks like it’s run it’s course in the Uk to me, touch wood.
It was a lonely position, getting called hysterical and simply wrong on a number of occasions.
Many of us said both why it wasn’t being mandated back then, and also why it would be at some point. Welcome to that point.
Under 40s zero for a few days. Very good news, not trying to be provocative but this thing looks like it’s run it’s course in the Uk to me, touch wood.
It's obviously good to have no deaths in a particular age group over a period of a few days, but under 40s have accounted for less than one percent of Covid deaths in the UK, so it isn't quite as reassuring as you'd think.
Apparently we're still meeting the criteria for Stage 4 on the government's plan, which they said would require the reintroduction of lockdown, so it's all a bit confusing, isn't it?
Far too early to say CV19 has run it's course in the UK.
R rate is still close to 1.
Recent mass gatherings with some participants wearing masks and social distancing generally not being complied should be causes of concern.
Lots of talk about vaccine development but testing is in very early stages; it would be sensible to assume that a vaccine is a minimum of 12 months away - and may not be developed - and modify behaviour accordingly.
This is a long way from over... should have enforced a complete lock down for the next 30 days.
Also there are parts of our economy that are no longer viable and at some point we have to accept that hospitality in all its forms is going to be reduced to a minimal service. Travel fuel car manufacturers public transport are all going to have to be scaled back.
Even with a vaccine some where down the road its not going to reset.
The parties over this is the new normal
Colleagues at 3 hospitals have all said they've seen a rise in New admissions
But it's fine....
I didn't want to link to the unherd video of this but now the telegraph have it at the top of their webpage
It's an interesting idea, but his models desperately lack any hard data
https://twitter.com/ClarkeMicah/status/1268519958226636800
Edukator,
Yes, I did have a few allies and appreciated your input, especially when you showed us what France was doing with regards masks, manufacturing and distributing the masks by the million in preparation for lockdown easing. I thought that the French action might spur our Government (and some anti-maskers) into life, all be it belatedly..... Fat chance!
This is exactly the ‘takeaway’ impression that ministers were hoping for. Vague messaging, weak measures, and then when the predictable thing happens, it’s all the public’s fault for being naughty.
Cue Importance of spin doctor over scientist.
Spain pretty much had armed coppers Stopping people driving out of areas without a valid reason but We’ve got a Well documented instance of a man driving 260miles here whilst infected.
No-one likes house arrest indefinitely.
People aren’t really that different governments have Gotta sorta take the hard decisions and make you do what is required via clear messaging and enforcement.
I don’t like mixing Covid and politics but I’m not seeing clear messaging and enforcement going on, I’m seeing ****ery.
How much influence has austerity across all departments had on the weakness of our response?
Lack of NHS staff - unable to run normal services and CV. Staff working multiple wards and cross infection.
Police reduced numbers - no way we could enforce quarantine like France and Spain.
Bigger school class sizes - social distancing not possible.
Local govt cuts - responsible for care sector and insufficient funding.
Plenty more I’m sure.
There are national resilience tests that we've failed too. The Govt via the regulators punish the utility companies if they do not meet their targets. However when the Govt fail their own resilience test they just DGAF
Labour weren't great at this but the last 10 years of Tory austerity has made this even worse.
Resilience is about the ability to cope with situations and then respond to them. Boris and chums wouldn't know what to do if they ran out of petrol nevermind facing the biggest crisis in 80 years.
Lack of NHS staff – unable to run normal services and CV. Staff working multiple wards and cross infection.
Not local to here there's not, lots of folks at the hospital with bugger all to do, our local hospitals thankfully never got near the levels that would've required other services to close, but we had to guard against that possibility.
Taking my non-political stance,I’d say it hasn’t helped but tbh earlier lockdown and more preparation would have reduced numbers of infected and let us out of lockdown earlier, earlier and less, less strain on the system, more time to get testing and tracking in place.
The issue I have is in politicising Covid it will allow people to simply dismiss the facts as its ‘politics‘ when they need to be looking hard at how bad it’s been handled.
Police reduced numbers – no way we could enforce quarantine like France and Spain.
Police in England were neutered by briefings. Whenever they tried to make it clear for people to stay put, the media got all excited, and number ten would do anonymous briefing against the police action. It wasn’t about police numbers, it was about lack of government leadership.
The issue I have is in politicising Covid it will allow people to simply dismiss the facts as its ‘politics‘ when they need to be looking hard at how bad it’s been handled.
This is why I'm concerned by all the people accusing the government of murder/eugenics - too many will dismiss it as too extreme and stop taking any notice.
I'm not after an enquiry to pin the blame on people/parties. It will take too long and cost too much. I want an enquiry to identify where the wrong decisions were made, from planning and preparations over 20 years right through the crisis, to find out why, identity what should have been done and when, and make sure we do it better in the future.
Blame will be pretty obvious after that process anyway
In the end, a decision on how much and when to curb the freedoms of the population is entirely a political one, however much it is or isn't influenced by advice from scientists.
Politics isn't some abstract ivory tower concept, it is about the nitty gritty of every big social issue. 'Stop making it political' is an impossible request.
The issue of competence in government is vital at this moment, however much those who 'lead' us would like to avoid difficult questions about their mistakes. Those who tell us that this isn't the time and place for scrutiny of their actions and inactions are generally those who are desperate not to address their failings.
Good luck with that MCTD.
I don’t like mixing Covid and politics
Clearly there is the virus, the disease, its epidemiology, but anything and everything that happened beyond the first handful of cases, the government handling, societal response, all has politics inevitably chucked in.
Those who tell us that this isn’t the time and place for scrutiny of their actions and inactions are generally those who are desperate not to address their failings
Precisely.
I get audited at work at varying stages of project completion, and if the audit isn't successful the customers tend to get a whole lot of fixes done for free. It's thoroughly unsurprising how accountable for their own quality of output everyone becomes in that environment.
Swerving any scrutiny tells you everything you need to know about how good a job they are really doing.
Lack of NHS staff – unable to run normal services and CV. Staff working multiple wards and cross infection.
Not local to here there’s not, lots of folks at the hospital with bugger all to do, our local hospitals thankfully never got near the levels that would’ve required other services to close, but we had to guard against that possibility.
Our trust didn't get near to those levels either but there are certainly not lots of folks here doing "bugger all" There's an awful lot of work going into the backlog that has resulted from re configuring our services while at the same time keeping one eye any possible resurgence (although Covid certainly hasn't gone away). Meanwhile routine procedures have been slowed due to Covid requirements.
Lack of NHS staff – unable to run normal services and CV. Staff working multiple wards and cross infection.
Not local to here there’s not, lots of folks at the hospital with bugger all to do, our local hospitals thankfully never got near the levels that would’ve required other services to close, but we had to guard against that possibility.
Same for my wife working in a hospital in the South West they were geared up for an onslaught that never happened (but they had to be ready) She did mention this morning when we were watching the news that the number of ICU cases is starting to increase slightly. I do wonder if the areas that have had very few cases (like the South West) are more likely to have bigger second spikes (if there are any) because there must be very little immunity.
On vaccines.
The Oxford stage 1 results showed
protected six monkeys from pneumonia, but the animals’ noses harboured as much virus as did those of unvaccinated monkeys
So does that mean they are potentially (assuming it passes human phase 2 & 3 trials) looking at a vaccine which doesn't exactly vaccinate in the conventional sense, but does remove the possibility of a deep and serious life threatening lung infection - whilst not preventing a standard cold type nose/throat infection..?
Would it actually go to production and widescale use, with that caveat?
eskay, are you suggesting that the current steps might be ever so slightly London focused, with little regard for (and knowledge of) what is happening elsewhere?
So does that mean they are potentially (assuming it passes human phase 2 & 3 trials) looking at a vaccine which doesn’t exactly vaccinate in the conventional sense, but does remove the possibility of a deep and serious life threatening lung infection – whilst not preventing a standard cold type nose/throat infection..?
And presumably does not affect onward transmission greatly, so you would need a higher coverage to protect those who could not be vaccinated.
That's a good point, there would be no kind of herd immunity achieved with a "partial vaccine".
Still, the pubs open in 10 days, so we can all go out and get spreading.
Still, the pubs open in 10 days, so we can all go out and get spreading.
Only of we've met those oh so important standards.....🙄
On the delay of implementing the face covering on public transport to 15 June, its partly down to not expecting significant changes in patronage between now and then, but also the time taken to enshrine it in law. Reasonably easy to do on bus and train, less so on other modes and a bit of a nightmare on trams. I was only told at 2pm that the SoS was making the announcement at 5pm yesterday so somewhat fast moving.
Still, the pubs open in 10 days, so we can all go out and get spreading.
At least the countryside might be nicer again if they are able to go down the pub again at a weekend!
I have no idea how it'll be possible to open pubs. Book a table like you would in a restaurant, and table service only? Best of luck trying to distance folk when they're pished.
I saw a headline 'only 1 in a 1000 people now have Covid', sounds a bit healthier than 68,000.
So does that mean they are potentially (assuming it passes human phase 2 & 3 trials) looking at a vaccine which doesn’t exactly vaccinate in the conventional sense, but does remove the possibility of a deep and serious life threatening lung infection – whilst not preventing a standard cold type nose/throat infection..?
Would it actually go to production and widescale use, with that caveat?
Short answer is yes it would still be useful and they'd still release it of there was nothing else *but* there are 90 vaccines in development worldwide and at least 8 of them have worked perfectly in primates so you'd have to assume the Oxford one won't progress if there are loads of brilliant alternative vaccines around. (Or maybe none of them will work in humans!)
Detail here, starting with the Oxford one:
…current steps might be ever so slightly London focused, with little regard for (and knowledge of) what is happening elsewhere?
…well …no one will be surprised at this:
https://twitter.com/jenwilliamsmen/status/1268890254032932865?s=21
It will be interesting to see if there is any government response if this is backed up by more data. In theory they should be reversing lockdown relaxation in certain areas.