I’m not defending anyone, i’m not discussing the politics of it… I’m just making a point.
And your point is?
This is exactly the ‘takeaway’ impression that ministers were hoping for.
Exactly
Of course it’s difficult, but look at the Rubbish thread, the Costa/McDonlads, the beaches, the parks… That’s at least as much down to the society we have as the government.
You could argue that an essential part of good government is coming up with policies and strategies that take the characteristics of your society into account. If your policies don't work, then you can't just throw your hands up and walk away because, 'people'. You have to devise policies that work. Equally if you choose to undermine your own messaging with stuff like the Cummmings fiasco, then it's arguably not surprising that some 'people' don't then take it seriously.
Plenty of other countries have managed the pandemic far more effectively than us, what you seem to be saying is that British people are uniquely stupid. But even if that were the case, the government is still responsible for coming up with measures that work with that population. If they can't do that, it's a failure of government.
In reality it's probably a bit of both - some people are hard to get through to - because mostly that's how things roll, but the job of a government is to take that into account and create policies that work. Is the British population uniquely dim? I find that hard to believe.
How’s it all going in Sweden then?
In reality it’s probably a bit of both
Very much so and i said that above. But a chunk of the British people do indeed seem more stupid than other countries. Even taking into account the messages being a bit/lot vague, some of the UK still are using common sense.. but plenty of them are just being completley daft about it.
Is the British population uniquely dim? I find that hard to believe.
Clearly yes, because you can still self police, you can still be safe.. Just because someone says "it's ok to do XYZ" doesn't mean you HAVE to... Myself and many others are ignoring a chunk of the freedom and still sticking to the exclusions... But some, are not... And our 'some' seems bigger than other countries 'some'
But the society in this country is now becoming as much of a factor as the Gov in this.
Well, there I was thinking that people wouldn’t buy it, but passing the blame to the public is obviously working on some people.
some of the UK still are using common sense
This means nothing.
How’s it all going in Sweden then?
Looks like a fairly similar rate to here tbh, a bit lower but without the same level of lockdown. Lots more dead than their neighbours though, who are all in the low hundred compared to nigh on 5000 in Sweden. In that article they seem to admit that they'd be a bit stricter in hindsight.
Clearly yes, because you can still self police, you can still be safe.. Just because someone says “it’s ok to do XYZ” doesn’t mean you HAVE to…
So following gov advice is being stupid, no doubt I'm being stupid by returning to school before the cases have reduced to a manageable level?
deadlydarcy
Member
How’s it all going in Sweden then?
Well, it is sunny outside and life is going on. A fair few people wearing masks outside now and people generally avoid physical contact (even more than usual). Numbers on public transport are down, working from home is up. People are still dying, people are still doing stupid things, people are generally being people.
I think we could maybe have done some things better, but some things could have been far, far worse
People are still dying, people are still doing stupid things, people are generally being people.
But they are clever Scandi's not stupid Brits, how confusing.
So following gov advice is being stupid, no doubt I’m being stupid by returning to school before the cases have reduced to a manageable level?
Whether you're being stupid is open to debate... I wouldn't... but doesn't mean you cannot. I applaud you for doing so and looking after kids... but it's a position i'd really not want to find myself in and given the choice, i'd say no.
I've got to go to work for the first time in 3 months next week for 2-3 hours. The building has basically been closed for that 3 months, yet i'm still wary about going in.
Whether you’re being stupid is open to debate… I wouldn’t… but doesn’t mean you cannot. I applaud you for doing so and looking after kids… but it’s a position i’d really not want to find myself in and given the choice, i’d say no.
So for clarity if I go work because the gov said I had to and get ill is it my fault for being stupid or there's?
I’ve got to go to work for the first time in 3 months next week for 2-3 hours
Arent you lucky, I've been in work for 4hours a week throughout, does that make you cleverer than me?
What about those thicko drs and nurses?
Whats interesting about sweden is that they still expect to take the same economic hit as their neighbours, partly because the disruption of a partial lockdown not much different from a full one & partly because they are just as globalised as anyone else & exposed to same headwinds
I can understand that Weeksy and feel the same way about my office. Hell, I have only met my boss three times since I started work at the new job.
I saw some friends here for the first time in months yesterday. Having to stand apart and not greet either of them with a hug was really, really difficult.
Arent you lucky, I’ve been in work for 4hours a week throughout, does that make you cleverer than me?
LOL WTF, where on earth did you leap to that conclusion from ? I never once said that, don't be throwing things like that into what i wrote, i never even thought that let alone wrote it.
LOL WTF, where on earth did you leap to that conclusion from ? I never once said that
Whether you’re being stupid is open to debate… I wouldn’t
Seems clear to me, obviously too stupid to understand you outpourings
sure, apologies.
I think you've taken Weeksy out of context AA, I understand what he means.
Anyway:
But they are clever Scandi’s not stupid Brits, how confusing
It makes me wonder, we've been lambasting our fellow Brits but in reality, maybe its a global similarity? Bob - Spain? Anyone here who can comment on on Italy?
I hear through snippets but have done no research that Japan has been one of the most obedient and least affected, is that true?
I think you’ve taken Weeksy out of context AA
So following gov advice is being stupid, no doubt I’m being stupid by returning to school before the cases have reduced to a manageable level?
Whether you’re being stupid is open to debate… I wouldn’
In context and clear in message, I havent misunderstood anything!
Spain’s cock ups and mismanagement on this crisis are something else and would warrant a whole new thread. Whilst the country is crumbling economically the politicians are having pointless esoteric conversations.
Spain has done astonishingly well IMO. They had far less warning, had a tsunami sized first wave in Madrid and Barcelona and locked down properly in response. The result? Well have a look at the numbers. Down to single digit deaths for a week and around 300 new cases a day which is what's reckoned to be manageable in terms of tracing and suggest deaths will stay in single digits.
Compare that with Sweden where the virus tail is wagging the dog.
HOw much of that is down to the government and how much down to the idiots that live in this country ?
I think the number of fines issued in other European countries suggests that being an idiot is not just a British problem, but focusing on it, rather than poor leadership and government possibly is.
A few people are using the "our daily deaths exceeded the rest of Europe combined" stat. Is it looking even worse than it is due to them being 2-3 weeks ahead of us anyway?
There were 324 deaths announced yesterday for UK, EU 27 announced 323 deaths for the day.
Only 7-day average matters due to reporting. Excess deaths is the metric I'm most interested in. The nursing home experience mimics that data I've analysed; peak of 3x higher mortality rate in 85+ and an average over the epidemic of 2x. Awful.
The Sweden approach sits half-way between hard early lockdown of its neighbours, and the missed-the-boat dither-and-delay lockdown of the UK. It provides a useful reference as to what endemic slow-burn R=1 looks like as other countries relax. Spain had a very effective decline - faster than other countries and mimicking what was seen in London.
I've given up on thinking the government are following the science. It looks like Witty and Vallance have the same sentiment.
We would've likely been 2-3 weeks ahead of ourselves had it not been for the 'leadership'.
'Taking responsibility' means placing the responsibility on the shoulders of the public. If the public is thick, I would think no more than anywhere else, as BWD succinctly pointed out, then that should be integrated into policy. From here and elsewhere it seems the guidance is unclear, there were 41 changes to advice to schools in one week, and people are doing their own thing. Yesterday I counted 32 people at one time in the 7 acre park outside my window.
My daughter's meant to be back in the classroom next Monday but I haven't heard about arrangements. We've sort of adjusted quite well and I don't mind not making the commute to Manchester (but certainly miss other bits) and we've no plans to rush back into the social milieu. One of my HP pals works at a university and good gob things are complicated there, balancing the loss of overseas students against dropping grade requirements (which they won't be doing). He's been told to expect to work from home till Xmas and maybe for a year. So the mixed and unclear guidance for me means that I don't trust it and ain't going out. I can't imagine the usuals in my local will be able to keep away and that gives me the great trepidations (feeling ill in the chamber), I await the bad news.
I do think the government misjudged the public, but the wrong way. They thought they would be much less compliant than they turned out to be, so felt they couldn't bring lockdown measures in too early as there would be too much kick-back. Hence the hesitation/delay and what that led to in infections.
I was surprised how compliant the majority of the public were at first. A week or maybe two earlier, stricter guidance around exercise just to make the rules clearer, would have been more achievable than I probably thought.
Spain had a very effective decline
Its recent figures are rubbish, they are only reporting deaths that took place the day before, so if a death take more than a day to report it misses the figures entirely - FT correspondent has done a thread, figures went from 200+ deaths per day to single figures when they changed their approach.
Down to single digit deaths for a week and around 300 new cases a day which is what’s reckoned to be manageable in terms of tracing and suggest deaths will stay in single digits.
Yes. Spain had an appalling start but locked down hard and are now looking quite good.
Note 300 cases/day, normalised, is 7 cases per million population per day.
Given that they are several weeks different to UK it might be instructive to look at the two weeks old figure, which was 22 cases per million pop per day.
The comparable current UK figure, 24 cases per million pop per day.
UK still need a couple of weeks with little to no mixing; the total of near 2k cases/day seems a bit much for the 25k test and trace and trackers who are still dealing with long turnarounds on testing, and not being that effective yet through inexperience and new setup and teething troubles. Obviously I'm just a software monkey working at home not an expert though.
Does anyone have a link to reliable hospital admissions data for the UK?
Its recent figures are rubbish, they are only reporting deaths that took place the day before
Yes the death figures are now cobblers.
Presume the new cases data is still sensible though.
Oh gosh just seen the usual pro-Tory commentators jumping up & down about Spain 'cheating' their death records
all missing that it still doesnt explain why the UK has been so consistently woeful
Latin countries, France, Spain and Italy are much less obedient to rules. Their governments had to have very strict rules for the lock down.
In France, the lock down was very effective and followed for the first 3 weeks. After that people resilience started to crumble.
It din't so much crumble as become more selective. I think we've learned the conditions needed for transmission and adapted. There were loads of people outside the bars yesterday but they were outside and more separated than usual, everyone in the station and on the bus was wearing a mask as was almost everyone in the supermarket. I went to friends for a dinner party, we sat outside and didn't exchange the usual bises, no-one ate with their fingers. At school Madame still has classes of about 10 and they all wear masks (despite the oficial directive dropping the mask obligation for teachers as of today).
I'm hoping enough people are being careful enough to maintain the downward trend.
Oh gosh just seen the usual pro-Tory commentators jumping up & down about Spain ‘cheating’ their death records
Anything to take the focus off the own-goals here eh?
Question: we've now carried out thousands of tests over a period of several weeks. Is anyone doing follow-up antibody tests on those who previously tested Positive to get some idea of whether or not the antibodies are (still?) present and, if so, for how long?
Oh gosh just seen the usual pro-Tory commentators jumping up & down about Spain ‘cheating’ their death records
all missing that it still doesnt explain why the UK has been so consistently woeful
These statements are not mutually exclusive.
The Spanish courts have already opened up an investigation on the possible cock-up at the start of the crisis.
Question: we’ve now carried out thousands of tests over a period of several weeks. Is anyone doing follow-up antibody tests on those who previously tested Positive to get some idea of whether or not the antibodies are (still?) present and, if so, for how long?
How about anti-body tests on those who didn't previously get tested as well especially those who were living with someone who either tested positive or suspected?
Come to that how about PCR tests on them as well to see if they are currently/still spreading?
https://9to5mac.com/2020/06/04/switching-to-apple/
Interesting comment:
With the benefit of hindsight, this should have been obvious. Government IT projects typically take years, when what we needed was something available within weeks.
What Apple and Google really should have done was create their own apps, and just make localized versions available in each country.
Hasn't taken long for the scammers to start exploiting the trakc-and-trace confusion. Been forwarded this by my mum after someone in one of her facebook groups got caught out by the following phone call:
‘Good morning, I'm calling from the NHS track and trace service. According to our system, you are likely to have been in close proximity to someone who has tested postive for COVID-19. This means that you now need to self-isolate for 7 days and take a COVID-19 test.'
'OK. Can you tell me who that person was?'
'I'm not able to tell you that. That is confidential information.'
'Right. Um... so ....'
'But you do need to be tested within the next 72 hours. So can I just get the best mailing address so that we can send a kit to you?'
'Ok (gives address)'
'Thank you - and I just need to take a payment card so that we can finalise this and send the kit to you.'
'Sorry - a payment card? I though this was all free?'
'No - I'm afraid not. There is a one-off fee of £500 for the kit, and test results. Could you read off the long card number for me, please, when you're ready.'
'No - that's not right. This is part of the NHS so there's no charge.'
'I'm afraid there is. Can you give me the card number please - this is very important, and there are penalties for not complying.'
Puts phone down.
This is how scammers work. And vulnerable people will fall for it.
Don't fall for it...!
Scum at the best of times but now even more so.
In answer to Scotroutes, yes. There was a French study on hospital staff who tested positive who were given antibody tests 39 days later and 98% were positive for antibodies. Other studies back this up.
People infected in the 2003 SRAS outbreak stil had antibodies 12 years later. I can't remember which keys words I used for that fact.
Can anybody tell me why I’m wrong?
I’ve liking thought out testing strategy is completely wrong.
For months we used all our testing capacity in hospitals, testing those who presented with CV symptoms.
My policy would be - anybody presenting to hospital with serious CV symptoms most probably has CV, so treat them for it. Use the limited capacity to test the people likely to be catching it and possibly asymptomatic. That way you find people before they Spread it.
Christian from la Charité in Berlin (Germany's Mr Covid) has answered a lot of question about testing. The problem with testing asymptomatic people who may have been infected is that they are likely to test negative if you test them immediately so if you do you have to test them again later, and maybe again. And you still might not get a positive result. There appear to be people who fly under the radar. In short you have to target your testing to those in contact with known cases within a certain number of days of the contact to pick up cases. People "likely to be catching it" would just be a waste of capacity.
What's lacking at present isn't testing capacity, it's a tracing system capable of tracking down people to test.
What about those thicko drs and nurses?
The differnce for me between halthcare workers and teachers on this is healthcare workers knew that serious infection risks were a part of the job. Covid is a quantitative change not qualitative. Teachers expect to get sniffles from the kids, not serious infections.
I've been lucky in my career. Scabies twice and norovirus twice in my time.
Government announces face coverings on public transport will be compulsory in England from 15th June
Why the delay? If new cases are higher now than they will be in 2 weeks, wouldn't you want people using PT to be covering faces from now? Can anyone explain the logic here?
The differnce for me between halthcare workers and teachers on this is healthcare workers knew that serious infection risks were
Dont worry I didnt mean you or others were thick, I just took umbrage at the posters victim blaming simplistic bobbins.