My questions are, why can’t the government organise a system remotely fit for purpose and why do private PCR tests costs so much money?

That is a very good question

At my research institute I reckon we could process 10,000 tests a day with 3 qpcr machines, materials/reagents cost are pretty low, a few pence for primers, a few pounds for reagents, a few pounds for plasticware, analysis is run on a Windows laptop, each run takes about 2 hours. Machines themselves cost 10k+ but with annual service contract of a grand they last for years, 2 or 3 people could do it easily

The lighthouse labs which are run by Delloite have 2 of ours still though. I suspect a lot of the costs are in staffing & the logistics of sample collection & transport

The lighthouse lab salaries are pretty poor tho, especially considering the hours are 12hr shifts alternating between nights & days, works out about £28k, which for an experienced technician is on the crappy end, even for life sciences
Hence staff turnover is high & they have loads of vacancies

Ultimately trying to centralise testing led to a huge delay in getting it up & running, in the long run it's allowed us to get up to an impressive capacity, but it seems poorly run & ultimately it falls down because contact tracing is still not hitting its targets and with tests taking >24 hrs (>48 hrs for home testing) to return its not perfect, tho Tbf it has improved since September /October , personally know several people who should have been contacted but weren't & isolated themselves anyway.

Anyone remember when someone in a position of authority mentioned the phrase 'test and trace'?

Very much this – it’s been offered to you for a reason ahead of some others. Bear in mind that as more vulnerable people get protection from the vaccine, we will ease restrictions so more people could potentially catch it – and the complications of long Covid or just being **** unlucky – even if deaths among the vulnerable are very low.

Exactly. Take the vaccine.

Me (exercise induced asthmatic) and Mrs K (Lupus) have both just had a text suggesting our Vaccination is coming soon. I’m 48 and a competitive cyclist, she likely can’t have it with the issue around allergies, I hope we can refuse it and it goes to a more needed couple of people than us!

More likely it's been allocated to you and if unused will expire and be destroyed. Even if you're not at personal risk from Covid-19 by taking the vaccine you're minimising the risk to others.

People suspect that it might have come from flight/cabin crew, who aren’t subject to as-strict quarantine rules on arrival.

Not at all surprised. The decision over whether a crewmember needs to self-isolate in the UK after working with an infected colleague is taken by management, not a medical professional. Guess which direction they tend to go in when they're understaffed?

Kelvin

Or you keep denying that the spread occurs in (state) schools.

Hence can you see why I have said that non-testing is being used to control the reported spread
As I pointed out 100% of people that test positive have been tested - the most efficient way to control people who test positive is not test people who might be positive.

Ignore how stupid that is from a public health standpoint and put on your Cummings/Boris glasses.
Do you really think with that available either of them would say "we can't do that it's deceiving people"?

You can see why this term has resulted in a lot of angry people… and, remember, this government did A LOT of work preparing the public to blame teachers (and their unions) before we even got to September. I think most people saw through it… but then it might just be that I do not know enough of the people that propaganda communication was aimed at.

It's not a case of seeing through it so much it's a case of what is convenient to believe.

Remember (not personally obviously), during the Napoleonic wars many Brits actually believed the French were monkeys. I'm not exactly sure what that means... and it probably covered a wide range of "monkey" to "monkey like" but ultimately it didn't matter if the propaganda worked and ultimately it's "true" we are all apes.

This is the same propoganda ... "Covid Safe" - Sure schools are relatively safe for children in that they are unlikely to die. Indeed that's what the focus of the Govt website is... whgat it completely misses is their transmission of the virus to vulnerable teachers, parents, carers and their onwards transmission.

It's just a popularity numbers game. If they prevent testing the numbers stay lower.
The state schools have binary options
1) Attend
2) until you are told to self isolate

Until they are then told to self isolate but not get tested unless they have symptoms
By which time transmission in the family already occurred if they ever develop symptoms at all.

More likely it’s been allocated to you and if unused will expire and be destroyed. Even if you’re not at personal risk from Covid-19 by taking the vaccine you’re minimising the risk to others.

Well this isn’t how it works. There are 975 vaccines in a delivery and they must all be given. So if someone says no we ask the next person on the list. It must not be wasted it’s far too valuable.

If you are lucky enough to be offered one take it. You are doing your bit by protecting others. Hopefully there will be enough to go round “eventually”...

Yeah, no vaccine will be wasted. But if you live with someone at risk who can't take the vaccine, then taking the vaccine yourself when offered seems a no brainer to me.

Head teachers having a webinar on how to do mass testing for covid today, what could possibly go wrong!!

Yeah, we've just been asked to give permission for all in our house to be tested by my OH's head (primary school) this morning. Nothing from the Boy's secondary school yet... but then the "details" about what they are supposed to be doing will "hopefully" be sent to schools before the 25th. You can argue that waiting for that would be wise. 🤷🏻

vazaha
Free Member

So, arriving at London Heathrow he was-
– walking through customs, walking out of the Terminal, and taking the train home.

Yep. And it's not just about a lack of control- it's actively discouraging people who would normally follow all the rules, because you're suddenly in a flow of people ignoring it, and seeing it not being taken seriously not just by passengers, or even staff, but by the people who make the rules, you are basically being told "nobody gives a shit". Another bit of insane UK government nudging, and tbh it wouldn't need a lot, to nudge people in the right direction.

Anyone any idea what time the results folks work to? missus had a test yesterday, do they work in the evening or 9-5?.

Was hoping we'd hear today.

I’ve had results notifications at all times of day and night (weekly testing) 6am, 10pm etc etc.
No results from the swab I posted yesterday. Recently been getting them late Friday or very early Saturday after posting on Thursday.

Thanks, let's hope so!

Looked back last few weeks, usually email arrives first 11pm to midnight, sms just after 6am. Does vary depending how busy the system is I guess but been quite efficient fir a few weeks now.

You in England? We get a phonecall up here.

Yes England! 😂 sorry!

Not quite correct your tier allows you around, no beer with chips if you are going to 2 from 3.

It's true you take your restrictions with you. However someone living in a tier 3 area and having a meal/drinks in a pub in tier 3 wouldn't be breaking the law, only the pub would. That might be the intention but the only restrictions in the legislation are on the business.

My partner for the first jab yesterday, she's in the NHS,but not patient facing.

The jab administered at a local (to.the hospital she works at) surgery. Lots of paperwork apparently, their systems aren't currently running and it was their first day of administering the jab.

The phone call she got was totally out of the blue. For her and I it feels like the first glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel.

My mum got her jab yesterday. At 87 and living at a Warden assisted oap block deffo in the most vulnerable category.
Will ring her later to see how it went, Skaterham, Surrey.

My Dad got his first jab on Thursday..... 83, cancer survivor, prob deserves it.

Hoping my mum (78, multiple health issues) is called soon too. Light may be dim, but it is a light....

Good to hear about the start of the end.

On a more negative note, BBC news talking about a “new mutant strain of the virus”, as if we are living in a Marvel comic, jarred a bit. The BBC really has joined in the race to the bottom amongst the UK media.

More good news but not COVID related, my path-lab samples from the recent TURP came back yesterday with negative for cancerous cells. We may have celebrated a bit a last night! (Plus left a large tip at the restaurant for the extra free desert that arrived with congratulations written in the cinnamon sugar).

Mad Friday and there were about a dozen in the place when we arrived and 2 remained when we left.

😃👍

So it's been 10 days since I spent 18 hours locked in a small room with someone who tested positive for Covid the next day. So far the only symptom I've experienced is a slightly stuffy nose yesterday. And I've coughed twice. Have been neurotically taking my temperature every six hours or so for ten days.

I see it like this. Either:

1. I've already had it (I had chills and muscle pains for about 12 hours in Feb but antibody test in July was negative).

2. My super-duper immune system killed it before it got a foothold.

3. I'm actually spewing plague particles from my lungs as I write this.

*bites fingernails nervously*

Great news Sandwich!

The surgery I do part time work for vaccinated 100 people yesterday, with the other doses from the batch distributed amongst the other local practices with the second dose due 8th January. They have 380 Or so over 80’s and are yet to hear when next batch available. It went very well apparently.
My 89 year old father has his today, for which I am profoundly grateful

So it’s been 10 days since I spent 18 hours locked in a small room with someone who tested positive for Covid the next day

Who knows, Mrs Anagallis had it and I was sharing a bed with her and didnt get it. Do your time and move on, you'll never know whats actually happened.

Two questions:

Are the Nightingales working and anywhere near full? I keep hearing head of something for NHS saying Covid/non Covid wards in hospital are full.

Did I hear Jeremy Hunt say on R4 this morning 'that for every covid death there has been a non related death because people cant get treated by hospitals' - see above?

I thought those escape rooms had panic buttons and the staff were supposed to check the room was empty before going home., 18hrs sheeesh must have a tough set of clues

On a more negative note, BBC news talking about a “new mutant strain of the virus”, as if we are living in a Marvel comic, jarred a bit. The BBC really has joined in the race to the bottom amongst the UK media.

I feel this is hugely irresponsible. Even uneducated in these things I know that this - and things like colds - mutate all the time with no issues to us. TiRed validated it a few pages back. I think the only effect its having is ramping up the cases on the basis it's more transmissable.

Still no test result, nearly 48hrs, missus was due to be on covid testing duties today as well.

ramping up the cases on the basis it’s more transmissable.

Even that's debatetable, seems to be a convenient excuse for why the cases have ramped up in the south despite it being known that once the cases increase the rates also increase, oh and coming out of lockdown which concentrated 2 months of Christmas shopping into 1, going into tier 2 which is about as much use as a chocolate teapot, we've been in tier 3 in the North for months, the only thing that brings down rates is lockdown.

Are the Nightingales working and anywhere near full? I keep hearing head of something for NHS saying Covid/non Covid wards in hospital are full.

Did I hear Jeremy Hunt say on R4 this morning ‘that for every covid death there has been a non related death because people cant get treated by hospitals’ – see above?

I think the nightingales have been repurposed, I'm not sure they were much more than a PR stunt (the name alone was a bit cringe)
Anyway the issue wasn't just about beds & fortunately lockdown 1 prevented the tsunami of cases that really would've seen them needed.
It was staffing that's the critical issue,, that's why other services in the NHS were shutdown, so staff could be moved to covid care.
But every winter area staff & bed shortages due to flu etc, which leads to urgent cancer ops etc being delayed from November to March

Interestingly flu season has stalled this year, it seems, lockdown, distancing, masks, competition from covid? Hi mortality from covid earlier in the year? seem to prevented flu from spreading (tho not covid or rhinoviruses)

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03519-3

Also sandwich, that's great!!

2000 doses given at our vaccine site in the last couple of weeks. Everything went smoothly apart from a few booking glitches

The vaccine handling is challenging but manageable as we deal with ULT meds routinely as part of clinical trial work

Work underway to significantly ramp up the numbers in the next few weeks

It’s heading the right way folks.... 🙂

Good work RicB 👍🏻

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Kryton57
Full Member

On a more negative note, BBC news talking about a “new mutant strain of the virus”, as if we are living in a Marvel comic, jarred a bit. The BBC really has joined in the race to the bottom amongst the UK media.

I feel this is hugely irresponsible. Even uneducated in these things I know that this – and things like colds – mutate all the time with no issues to us. TiRed validated it a few pages back. I think the only effect its having is ramping up the cases on the basis it’s more transmissable.

Just been moaning about this to my wife as well. Would have been so much more professional to use the word mutated instead of mutant.

I feel this is hugely irresponsible.

I agree.

seems to be a convenient excuse for why the cases have ramped up in the south despite

This. Media speculation prompted by government spin. Dreadful journalism, we need a real division between media and government, it’s all got far too incestuous in the last few years.

Would have been so much more professional to use the word mutated instead of mutant.

It’s not hard is it. Either lapse journalism, or part of a deliberate race to the bottom.

Boris update later today, apparently the rise of the new strain in the South East is being discussed right now according to the BBC. Having gone into Tier3 today, will they lockdown?

The 'new strain' is a useful device if you need to change your mind in a hurry and pretend that it wasn't a stupid idea in the first place.

London and the south east moving into Tier 4. Christmas cancelled.

London and the south east moving into Tier 4. Christmas cancelled.

Some sites speculating travel ban rather than lockdown/tier 4

Boris's water cannons can finally be taken out of storage.

More good news but not COVID related, my path-lab samples from the recent TURP came back yesterday with negative for cancerous cells. We may have celebrated a bit a last night

Brilliant .. I did the same when biopsy was negative for cancerous cells. (and I don't usually drink much)

mariner
Free Member

Are the Nightingales working and anywhere near full? I keep hearing head of something for NHS saying Covid/non Covid wards in hospital are full.

Did I hear Jeremy Hunt say on R4 this morning ‘that for every covid death there has been a non related death because people cant get treated by hospitals’ – see above?

You have to remember what the Nightingales were- liferafts. Absolute last ditch disaster response. They weren't real hospitals and they couldn't be staffed properly (because neither could the real hospitals). They were just so that we'd have a better option than leaving people to die in hospital car parks (ie, the sea) but if you end up in one, good luck.

And that was a good idea! Because the ship damn nearly sank. People now say it was a stunt or a waste of money but you don't complain just because the liferafts didn't get used or demand a refund on your ticket because you didn't end up in the sea.

As for Hunt, he doesn't actually understand that there's difference between truth and lies so I wouldn't give him a second's thought. Before he gets to comment on any other causes of death he can take responsibility for all the people he killed with his "no 24 hour NHS" lies.

As a shopkeeper I really do hope that the garden centre breeding grounds aren't affected by any tier 4 restrictions.
It's a total ****ing joke.

Seem to be few people her with vaccine distribution knowledge - should my 90 yr old father have been contacted by now

Knowing him he'll sit there an not 'kick up a fuss' until someone does but I'm getting slightly annoying at the various celebs in the 70's appearing all over the media getting jabs.

OMG a mutant version !!!!
It's obvious now Trump was correct ... first a virus that's not affected by anti-biotics now it mutates.
It can probably kill with laser eyes or has indestructible bones of adamantium. We're screwed unless we inject bleach* as the great prophet said. [*heavy sarcasm... DO NOT INJECT BLEACH OR DO ANYTHING ELSE TRUMP SUGESTS]

My 90yo FiL enquired a few days ago and was told he'd be contacted in due course. The roll-out varies by area and there isn't enough vaccine for all the elderly yet.

My sister-in-laws 96 year old gran has heard nothing yet, either, in Luton fwiw.

So are we about To go Tier 4?

I was supposed to be picking up mum in law on weds for our Xmas bubble, will that still be an option?

I was tested in work thus week & not seen anyone since, so we can have her stay, tho kids only finished school yesterday, do I make a dash to pick her up tomorrow?!?!

I was supposed to be picking up mum in law on weds for our Xmas bubble, will that still be an option?

Well if someone on here can give an answer to that before the imminent announcement, they've either got hold of a leak, are part of the government and leaked it here or Bojo himself announcing via STW.

Over 80s are being picked up by PCNs (groups of GP practices), who are being ‘stood up’ up at slightly different times and will then have to schedule in all of their patients according to the 3.5 day window they have to use each vaccine delivery (975 doses) within

So different >80s will hear at different rates/times- no need to be concerned if relatives haven’t heard yet

Well if someone on here can give an answer to that before the imminent announcement, they’ve either got hold of a leak, are part of the government and leaked it here or Bojo himself announcing via STW.

Don't give BoJo ideas, it would be a good place for him to bury bad news!

London & SE in Tier 4 - Lockdown and can only meet 1 person outside. No people around at Christmas 🙁

Other Tiers limited to 3 people Christmas Day only.

Flippin heck.

Well if someone on here can give an answer to that before the imminent announcement, they’ve either got hold of a leak, are part of the government and leaked it here or Bojo himself announcing via STW.

They've already preleaked this, (I assume on purpose) just as they've leaked almost every other announcement! So it's possible 😁

Other Tiers limited to 3 people Christmas Day only.

3 households?

Flippin heck.

Lucky though communal worship is still allowed in tier 4 since apparently praying keeps the virus away.

Fair play to BoJo....I'm hardly a fan, but you can't argue with what he's just announced. Obviously planting the seeds of the xmas free for all was ****ing nut in the first place.

These restrictions should have been in weeks ago. Looks like a Zoom call to my parents 😢

But FFS stop international travel there is no need at all.

Update from mum re her 1st vaccination.
Busy site with 4 lanes of chairs and a medical professional at a top table
Musical chairs to move up the line, injection then wait
Having spent the most of a year being pretty much alone apparently it was very busy and too mamy people for the hall ( not a surgery but public events area) not enough parking but that's one of those things
I guess they need high, quick throughput due to the low temperature requirements. She seemed happy enough with the systems.

But FFS stop international travel there is no need at all.

I wouldnt stop it but I would follow the sensible "you want to travel you get to live in a designated secure hotel for 2 weeks once you get back at your expense" approach.
The one we should have done in the summer when people sodded off on their jollies and undid the work of the first lockdown.

Johnson 5 months ago
"We'll be back to normal by Christmas"

Johnson 3 days ago
"would be inhuman to cancel Christmas"

Johnson now
"We cannot continue with Christmas as planned,"

@drac, I agree. Most could see Christmas was going to be carnage. Let's see how much of the population observe the revised restrictions.

Hate Johnson but agree with him on this

So BoJo has finally grown some balls and done what is needed. Still feels like he hasn't gone far enough though, but that could just be what I'm used to feeling after every announcement he makes. Be interesting to see what Wales and Scotland do to respond.

Tom-B
Free Member

Fair play to BoJo….I’m hardly a fan, but you can’t argue with what he’s just announced.

Nah, only everything that's preceded it. How does he even do it?

The one we should have done in the summer when people sodded off on their jollies and undid the work of the first lockdown.

Should have been from day one except for moving goods. No 2 weeks bollocks no travelling abroad full stop.

Italy have announced the same thing today and I think the Netherlands did a day or two ago. The latest mutation (there have reportedly been many so this isn’t news in itself) seems to have the epidemiologists worried.

Well in Kent cases were rising before the November lockdown and kept on rising during that lockdown and continued rising after it. Why would doing the same again make any difference.
The only hope is the kids are not at school.

So they didn't get Gupta, Tegnell and co in to give them the science this time then?

FFS how much opportunity have they squandered over this year? Just make a decision you know you are going to have to make before you are forced into it!

Vaccines redundant? That's the huge worry I'm sure.

Vaccines redundant? That’s the huge worry I’m sure.

Currently no evidence to suggest that.

Currently no evidence to suggest that.

Absolutely

But they have just lied about the Porton Down data not being available. It is and my sister has read it. And it's scary. Suffice to say if you are in tier 4 I'd be playing the game and doing the rules by the letter.

He's breaking us in gently for a proper full lockdown in January then.

He’s breaking us in gently for a proper full lockdown in January then.

Unfortunately I dont think he has the leadership to do that. Instead we will have another almost full lockdown which will have enough holes in it to vastly reduce its usefulness whilst screwing over the majority of people. If by some miracle it does work he will then launch an initiative to completely undermine it.

But they have just lied about the Porton Down data not being available. It is and my sister has read it.

If your sister has leaked Porton Down data to you I'd have thought Covid-19 is the least of your worries at the moment.

Interesting, you can't just leave it at that. If you know more, leaked or not, tell it.

If your sister has leaked Porton Down data to you I’d have thought Covid-19 is the least of your worries at the moment.

To be fair she is apoplectic they didn't use the headlines to make people realise/understand it was important to get it right in T4. She's is one of hundreds to have read it. Someone will leak it soon enough.

More transmissible is an interesting finding. It might be that the Receptor Binding Domain (RBD) has tighter binding to ACE2 on cells so a lower dose leads to an infection. Hence the chance of spread, all else being equal (behaviours), goes up. And it doesn’t need to rise much as Tier 3 seems to be holding spread little in the South.

Tier 4 and cancelled Christmas is a short-term challenge. The bigger challenge is what will control spread after Christmas. Vaccine rollout can’t come soon enough. Until then, expect lockdown 3.

@TiRed do you think school closures will happen in the next lockdown? We clearly need a 'proper lockdown' again

…but you can’t argue with what he’s just announced.

On Wednesday Johnson described this kind of action as “inhuman”… and here we are… with him announcing that action. Late. Again.