Again, from a Spain POV - large supers have the 'non-essential' aisles cordoned off. Garden furniture, toys, TVs etc. I guess if you approach staff with a specific need (plates or pans or whatever) they would get them for you.
People have also been fined for exiting shops with a bag full of nothing but beer.
I don't think it is 'nanny state'. It's common sense - selling or buying beer is not illegal. But in a situation in which every trip to the shops carries risks, why would you go out for bread in the morning, a basket of shopping in the afternoon, and a sixpack and fags in the evening?
Some of the above tales of ambiguous messages from the govt or police make absolutely excruciating reading. Spain made a complete arse of its initial covid response which resulted in thousands of needless deaths but at least there was zero ambiguity in the lockdown.
Surprised at the number of people saying”when this is over” as if everything will be suddenly back to what used to pass for normal
Been trying to get this into the thick heads of some of my colleagues who are off furloughed. They genuinely think that when they come back it'll be straight back to normal. They're buying stuff to keep them occupied, no saving going on. Meanwhile those of us still working can see how this could pan out, possibly a reduction in work of anything form 20-50% as our customers will either no longer be there or need a lot less of what we do for them. That's why I'm cutting right back on all spending to get a disaster fund as full as I reasonably can. When the picture is clearer further down the line I'll either rely on that fund or use it for helping others out that have been hit harder than me.
We'll come out of this at some point but there will be a new normal that we just cannot predict right now. I'm hoping it will be for the better in terms of less consumerism and a greater sense of community and doing things for the greater good but it could easily be the opposite.
Why victimised? It’s entirely my choice, I’m just disappointed at some of the personal greed that I’m seeing, greed that we rightly call out when companies are doing it. I’ll caveat that with I’m not seeing the worst excesses here, but on local FB pages there are some awful examples. Like firing the cleaner and cancelling the club subs, but then boasting about how much they’re saving in that and petrol money and how they’re going to spend it on themselves when it’s over.
OK, it goes back in the economy in the end but meanwhile the club’s gone bust and the organiser bankrupt and the cleaner can’t eat properly….
If I’m wrong in thinking this, I don’t really want to be right.
Well done for living by your moral code, there's a worrying number that don't understand/don't want to understand the meaning of this.
Manuscript posted and submitted. Now awaiting MedRXiv acceptance and then you can see the plots. My conclusions have not changed. U.K. peak is between now and two weekends hence. Total size under 20k deaths would be good news. Neil Ferguson has mentioned staged release from lockdown. I would not expect much for another couple of weeks, personally.
Today I am down from the spare room and on the decking - it’s Easter, so not working. Instead I’m analysing the internal U.K. data on all health authorities and unitary authorities for some relaxation. Chest is still sore but not feeling lightheaded (yet).
Small steps. For me and the country.
Well done for living by your moral code, there’s a worrying number that don’t understand/don’t want to understand the meaning of this.
Yes agree with the moral code. But because some of us have a different set of values doesnt mean we dont understand or disagree. In his penultimate post he moved the focus away from his martyrdom to corporate capitilism. Focusing on the former, some of us feel a moral duty to support our children before strangers is the better path. Speaking for myself i wont apologise for that, but that doesnt mean i dont or wont contribute to society or charity nor do I deserve your indignation.
I’m not seeing the worst excesses here, but on local FB pages there are some awful examples. Like firing the cleaner and cancelling the club subs, but then boasting about how much they’re saving in that and petrol money and how they’re going to spend it on themselves when it’s over.
OK, it goes back in the economy in the end but meanwhile the club’s gone bust and the organiser bankrupt and the cleaner can’t eat properly….
If I’m wrong in thinking this, I don’t really want to be right.
That’s an entirely different example to your previous one and makes far more sense. It’s not an example I’ve seen anywhere though thankfully, in fact the opposite people are continuing to pay club fees. I don’t know anyone who has a cleaner.
Question about virud survival on surfaces.
I know it's 1 day for cardboard, up to 3 days on metal and plastic. I've just put a ton of shopping in my fridge and freezer, with the intention to open it up again in 3 days and for it all to be 'safe'
But thinking about it, a fridge could possibly make the vitus survive for longer.
So am I'm going to have to wipe down from now on..and if so just soap and water or do i need bleach solution?
Soap & water is fine.
Im getting a shopping delivery tonight. My routine is:
-Delivery driver leaves it all outside front door.
-I (washed/sanitized/gloves) unpack it all, and sort into fresh/frozen/cardboard/plastic & metal. stash, organised into bags for life.
- Fresh/frozen comes inside, onto my clear/clean/sanitized island, which I pack straight into fridge/freezer. Milk cartons are washed in the sink.
- Dry goods are stashed in the porch for 3 days before coming inside, same as post/parcels.
- Bin gloves, wash/sanitize hands, don marigolds, then bleach all contact areas.
Probably not perfect, but it should help.
Has anyone seen any updates on Icelandic asymptomatic cases.
I’d seen reports of a significant % but nothing since, nor even if they remained asymptomatic.
Perusing science through the papers tends to lead to seeing only outliers.
TiRed - looking forward to seeing your models. When I first saw that IHME prediction last week I had a big wobble, until a read of their assumptions/data showed it was all way off.
So am I’m going to have to wipe down from now on..and if so just soap and water or do i need bleach solution?
Just wash your hands after handling the packaging.
The IMHE prediction was rubbish to use a technical term
Perusing science through the papers tends to lead to seeing only outliers.
I was actually kinda hoping for some science science rather than papers science. In order to get a better picture of the science.
In his penultimate post he moved the focus away from his martyrdom to corporate capitilism. Focusing on the former, some of us feel a moral duty to support our children before strangers is the better path. Speaking for myself i wont apologise for that, but that doesnt mean i dont or wont contribute to society or charity nor do I deserve your indignation.
No, it's exactly the same example as in my early post. Maybe phrased differently, with different emphasis but the same example.
I haven't accused anyone here of it personally, I said I haven't seen the excesses but that doesn't mean I don't think there are a few. It was you that personalised it with accusations of martyrdom and jealousy, and I both refute and take offence at that.
If at the end of this my kids see their classmates jetting off to exotic climes because their parents thought the best response was to take save the money for personal advantage, I'll have no problem explaining why we aren't and I'd like to think they'll understand and be better people for it. Martyrdom? Jealousy? Far from.
It’s entirely possible to save cash and donate cash at the same time.
I haven't been to the supermarket for a couple of weeks. I don't need any food (well a few tins of tomatoes wouldn't go amiss), but I'm out of wine. Is it OK to go and buy a load or should I wait until I need some food too?
Yes agree with the moral code. But because some of us have a different set of values doesnt mean we dont understand or disagree. In his penultimate post he moved the focus away from his martyrdom to corporate capitilism. Focusing on the former, some of us feel a moral duty to support our children before strangers is the better path. Speaking for myself i wont apologise for that, but that doesnt mean i dont or wont contribute to society or charity nor do I deserve your indignation.
Whoa, hold your horses Kryton. I have not made a personal attack on you nor have I
aimed any indignation at you.
It’s entirely possible to save cash and donate cash at the same time.
It is and I don't have a problem in basis.
But a one off £15 on a nurse's shopping and a few evenings of banging a pot outside your door vs a substantial upgrade on your next car or a big holiday does not make a balanced account.
Although I agree life after of.lockdown will be different i dont think its scary. Yes, well all likely need to.make changes and adjustments but we will adapt.
Some of those will be positive. Im currently having lunch with the kids in the sun and the garden for free. When did we ever do that, we are usually rushing around everywhere. Maybe we should take the cue forward
And get off the phone?😂😂
Dantsw13,
Might not be the perfect approach but sounds pretty good to me.
You can either second guess Covid 19 or act with caution in light of the fact we don't really know enough about the virus as yet. I follow a similar approach to you.
As I mentioned before, I'm seeing about 2% of people here in Manchester wearing face masks / coverings in the shops.
I guess most people are following the line that face masks give you a false sense of security. Would you say that about:
Seatbelts
Airbags
Fire alarms
Parachutes
Helmets
Condoms
Bulletproof vests.
???????
Just seen the images on BBC of the mass grave in NY state, Bless those poor souls. 🙁
But a one off £15 on a nurse’s shopping and a few evenings of banging a pot outside your door vs a substantial upgrade on your next car or a big holiday does not make a balanced account.
I prefer to look at it from a political or social point of view. Its all well and good banging on about the nhs but how many ignored it at the ballot box over the last years and will in the future? I cant make the place better with my bit of spare cash but I'd be happy to have more of it spent where needed by the government.
But a one off £15 on a nurse’s shopping and a few evenings of banging a pot outside your door vs a substantial upgrade on your next car or a big holiday does not make a balanced account.
And pray who are you to decide or judge what is and isnt appropriate for others? Are you even sure you are fully aware of what they are doing beyond the internet / visible pan bashing? Do you know everyone's financial circumstance e.g that car really came from the wads of disposable income stashed in a mattress?
God bless your opinion but perhaps stop making a judgement of people based on it.
As I mentioned before, I’m seeing about 2% of people here in Manchester wearing face masks/coverings in the shops.
Same. I've been wearing an N95 mask since the 'lockdown' started when going to any shops. I was getting very funny looks initially, still do a little now but less so. Down the Asda this morning I'd say <5% of customers were wearing a mask.
There is defiantly a very British thing about 'keeping calm and carrying on' as if COVID-19 cares for acts of defiance against it. One is almost seen as a surrender monkey or coward for using mask a :D.
I've seen a lot of rubbish about how you shouldn't wear gloves unless medically trained and how 'there is no evidence that masks work'. Well, I'm exercising a precautionary principle. If masks only reduce my risk by a few percentage points it doesn't matter 'cos they are an easy win. And as you suggest the 'seat belts make you less safe' is a specious argument.
Del and drac,
You say that with regards hoarding at supermarkets, except for a small minority this only happened in the popular consciousness.
Do you mean popular consciousness or alternative reality?
Until the government enforced lockdown there was a total pile on at a lot of supermarkets and the supermarkets gorged themselves on it.
My local corner shop was limiting numbers of items you could buy 2 weeks before the same thing happened at supermarkets. Because they care about their staff and customers.
All those saying 'but my supermarket is practicing social distancing' etc... That's NOW, they don't have a choice. When they had a choice they did nothing. My comments are only concerned with what they did before they were forced to act. Do any of you understand the word NOW means one thing and the word THEN means another?
Are you even sure you are fully aware of what they are doing beyond the internet / visible pan bashing?
I don't know them personally, no. I'm going from what I've read on a FB thread about whether people are continuing to pay club fees, etc. I don't know why they'd make shit up that makes them look bad though.
You seem to be taking this personally, that's not the intent. In the end we all have our own conscience, and if people can look themselves in the mirror and think they did enough then OK, maybe it isn't my place to judge.
Mask use was explained to me by a nurse for the current situation as this:
The mask does a reasonable job of stopping them picking up a bug from a patient but it's not a replacement for correct hand scrubbing. You will do no harm in wearing one.
Where they make absolute sense is that they stop any sneezes or breathing of fine droplets from travelling far, so if you have the virus but don't yet show any symptoms then wearing one will limit the amount of people you could potentially infect before those symptoms show up.
Makes good sense to my non-scientific brain.
BBC reporting that South Korean patients thought cured test positive again
South Korean health authorities say 91 people thought recovered after contracting coronavirus have tested positive for the disease again.
The Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC) said on Friday it was not clear why the patients had tested positive for a second time.
KCDC director Jeong Eun-kyeong told a news conference it was possible that the virus had “reactivated” in the patients, as opposed to them being re-infected.
Other health experts suggested the patients may have "relapsed” or been misdiagnosed by faulty tests.
In answer to myself.
Can’t find anything, about all I did find this.
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-what-proportion-are-asymptomatic/
Which I broadly read as “dunno, not enough data”
I’ve been wearing an N95 mask since the ‘lockdown’
Did you find them in the Hens Teeth aisle?
I haven’t been to the supermarket for a couple of weeks. I don’t need any food (well a few tins of tomatoes wouldn’t go amiss), but I’m out of wine. Is it OK to go and buy a load or should I wait until I need some food too?
Some nice crisps to go with that wine perhaps?
maybe it isn’t my place to judge.
Not personal no, but know at last you have it. You have a right to your own morals and values. Yet so does every one else. Thats worth you bearing in mind, as is the unknown circumstances of the pan bashing majority you are judging on the merit of a Facebook post which originally went beyond the Football club analogy you are using now.
I hope people don't use this as an excuse to go on unnecessary trip just for snacks and other crap.
We're back to mixed messages again aren't we. Most people will interpret this as you can buy whatever is in stock WHEN you're in the shop but there will be some who see it as open house to go and get that scratchcard, case of beer or that choccy they're craving whenever they want.
Some nice crisps to go with that wine perhaps?
Good call. Perhaps some cheese and crackers too. That should placate the rozzers.
Woah, hang on. I'm not judging everyone that bangs a pot, I'm making a point that -> IMHO <- we all have an obligation to do what we can but if we think banging a pot is enough when we can be doing (in some cases, a lot) more then I disagree.
Football club analogy
Sorry, don't get the reference?
Not personal no, but know at last you have it. You have a right to your own morals and values. Yet so does every one else. Thats worth you bearing in mind, as is the unknown circumstances of the pan bashing majority you are judging
We as a society are pan bashing for the nhs and yet are selfisg gits who voted Tory. Its not hard to understand his point.
Do you mean popular consciousness or alternative reality?
They mean by the data.
http://www.fruitnet.com/eurofruit/article/181241/panic-buying-not-to-blame-for-shortages
What were the supermarkets supposed to do? Have a ring around and all close their doors at the same time? "Oh sorry Mr inkster, you don't usually buy the big bag of rice or tinned sweetcorn for that matter - best you put that back"?
The system got overwhelmed before it could adjust. They've adjusted it and we still have food on the shelves. Good job supermarkets.
Perhaps some cheese and crackers too. That should placate the rozzers.
Works for me. Some Carrs table water biscuits and a nice soft Brie will do nicely.
Which I broadly read as “dunno, not enough data”
I think that's a fair assessment. Pushing to lift restrictions or thinking we can run through this by keeping the NHS below the redline just seems to be folly without more information about what happens next. Whilst we are getting some excellent insight into infection / death rates I've not seen anything on different recovery rates or scenarios. Admittedly I'm not really chasing information that hard so I could have missed it.
Just cases data for England at the moment, but what is striking is just how similar every one of the 163 authorities are! Variability in count is about +/- 2-fold for the same point in the epidemic. This really is amazingly consistent. That means one needs a consistent approach to its controls too.
Of course my first coding was for Devon (spiritual home), but i shall automate outputs now for the whole country and post something when done.
And it’s St John Passion on Radio 3 on the decking. Takes ones mind off the chest pain.
Rydster.
As you say 'it's an easy win.'
I don't, have a proper mask myself, I made one out of cotton and add some paper filters. Wash the cotton and dispose of the paper.
Say my ghetto mask is only 10 or 20% effective. Well that's 10 or 20% better than dead. Im also 10 or 20% less likely to give the virus to someone else. (probably higher percentage than that with regards me potentially transmiting it.)
By exercising the precautionary principle I am protecting myself and protecting others. Or to put it more simply, by protecting others I am protecting myself.
The virus follows an exponential trajectory, we are not where we are today, right now we are where we are in two weeks time due to the incubation period. Even if you tested negative today you could test positive tomorrow. Acting with caution also has an exponential effect, by exercising the precautionary principle I not only protect myself and others I might come into contact with, I protect those who come into contact with others but not with me as well.
People have various opinions on the wearing of masks. But we know what opinions are like. You don't need to have an opinion on this, you just have to ask yourself - 'What's the downside?'
Torsoinlake,
How come my local corner shop could adjust before they got overwhelmed but the supermarkets couldn't? Do you have shares in Tescos or something?
I wasn't talking about panic buying being blamed for shortages I was talking about supermarkets allowing their shops to become like a scrum thus assisting in spreading the virus.
Apple's and oranges mate.
Just out of curiosity, do you wear a mask when you're shopping?