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The problem with that (well one of many) is that when the leader is absent a vacuum is left, to be filled by the vacuous.
It's even worse when Johnson was already part of the vacuum of talent before he fell ill.
I wish Bojo well, I don’t like the man, he lies more than Jay from the Inbetweeners, he played the system and disadvantaged the whole country for his own personal gain.
I have so little trust in the man I wasn’t 100% the “I’ve got it as well” wasn’t a look at me I’m one the herd, a man of the people stunt.
However to wish somebody ill says more about yourself than than anything else.
And as fit as I’m sure he says is, being at the top of government must be an incredible (and possibly unexpected weight) a weight that carries huge stress consciously and subconsciously especially when hit with a crisis like this.
I hope he pulls through
The tories have been lying about Johnsons condition right thru this
It was obvious his condition was much more serious than they were claiming.
Back from my run in the woods.
Past an old giffer this morning that had just parked up in his sports car, he was asking me and another Walker which way to the hill. Hardly the time to be exploring. Also from this access point there are 3 ways to go. 1 of those ways involves operating 2 gates. Old giffer had already gone through the gate and back to ask us, so touching 2 highly used surfaces. So the message hasn't reached everyone.
Reading between the lines, yes, it was. He went very quiet very quickly. It looked like even getting to the front door of #10 for a quick clap was draining.
Thing is, what else were the propaganda department going to say? Of course they say he is fighting it off, still leading the cabinet, etc. etc.
as fit as I’m sure he says is
He's not fit, let's be honest.
People above have asked about the chances of survival once in intensive care. BFM reports 50-55% for "réanimation" which implies being on ventilation not just oxygen which can be given anywhere:
According to a Guardian journalist on Europe 1 this morning Boris isn't on a ventilator.
Of the stuff posted about Boris there's one comment I agree with:
I hope he pulls through a genuinely changed man with a bit more humanity about him.
The press have no direct knowledge - only what they are told by cabinet minsters. They are now hinting he is on CPAP - now that can be done thru a type of mask or via a ventilator. Why would he be in itu which carries a risk and is under huge pressure if he is not being ventilated?
i simply do not believe it. My guess he is on CPAP using a ventilator but they are justifying saying he is not being ventilated as he is not on a full vent mode. If he was getting CPAP thru the type of a machine used for snorers than why ITU? That could be done in the private room he was in.
it does not add up
I bet today more info drips out and by the end of today the story has changed. They have been downplaying Johnsons condition since the middle of last week
Same as at every other step of
this crisishis presidency.
FTFY
Of course they're going to downplay it he's the Prime Minister FFS. There's a whole multitude of countries that would love to use the situation to their advantage
Does it matter? He’s in ITU I hope he pulls through for the sake of his family.
Reading between the lines, yes, it was. He went very quiet very quickly. It looked like even getting to the front door of #10 for a quick clap was draining.
He did not look in great shape clapping
Thing is, what else were the propaganda department going to say? Of course they say he is fighting it off, still leading the cabinet, etc. etc.
Another thing to consider here is betting against the economy as the PM is not in a good way. The recent press coverage linking a business Jacob Rees-Mogg's set up and, I believe still has shares in, to disaster capitalism being a case in point. There are always going to be people who exploit the situation - perversely some of these people may be pro Johnson in other events.
i simply do not believe it. My guess he is on CPAP using a ventilator but they are justifying saying he is not being ventilated as he is not on a full vent mode.
Seems quite likely, especially considering the government have repeatedly bent the truth over the last few weeks & years.
I'd be more surprised if they started being honest about things !
And unsurprising they'd want to downplay things, no one is going to be reassured by the idea of Raab as PM !
There’s a whole multitude of countries that would love to use the situation to their advantage
How so ? It seems to be the opposite to me, the EU have made it clear they are prepared to extend Brexit negotiations due to CV19 and several EU parliamentarians have called for just that. The hostility to the UK and threats of border closures becuase of the herd approach ended once the UK opted for confinement. There's cooperation at a research level. Other nations have contributed enormously to repatriating UK citizens from around the world.
I see far more solidarity than "use the situation to their advantage"
The recent press coverage linking a business Jacob Rees-Mogg’s set up and, I believe still has shares in, to disaster capitalism being a case in point.
even more reason for them to be open and above board, prevent any accusations of "insider" dealing ie shorting the pound because you know the pm is worse than no10 are admitting
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52180783
I see the "minimal" effect of school closures is being talked about.
I have this down as the first measure we have lifted when our trip back to normality begins.
Why would he be in itu which carries a risk and is under huge pressure if he is not being ventilated?
Very much this. Right now there is one reason to be in ITU if you have Covid-19.
I refer to the BBC text:
BBC political correspondent Chris Mason said the prime minister was given oxygen late on Monday afternoon, before being taken to intensive care.
He was moved as a precaution so he could be close to a ventilator - which takes over the body's breathing process, our correspondent said.
In the same way that you don't go in to hospital late sunday for 'routine checks' as 'a precaution', you don't go in to ITU at this point in time as 'a precaution' to be 'close to a ventilator'.
Just seen that Trump thing, wtf?!
I was just thinking its one hell of a story arc from "Take it on the chin" to "Admitted to ITU" via "Operation Last Gasp".
Just seen that Trump thing, wtf?!
someone on twitter posed the creepy thought "is that his seduction voice" ?
Just read the trump thing
No wonder he just got the taxpayer to order 29,000,000 doses of it
What a shameless turd that guy is?!
The only thing you can say with confidence at the moment is that Johnson is seriously ill.
Not commented much on here recent but here goes, Boris's current position is sad and i feel for him and his extended family.
However i can not forgive him, his class?, his politics for the utter destruction of poor people for many years.
If Boris pulls through will it change him to a compassionate more caring human being? No it will enforce his divine right. If he passes away he will become a Tory martyr.
Salute the rank not the man as they say in the Armed Forces. I genuinely hope he survives so Starmer can constructively dismantle him but also for his family and I really hope his dad is mulling over his stupid pub comments.
Only 2/3 of patients in ITU are ventilated. It's not the only thing ITU offers. But if he does go to ventilation within 24 hours it is not a good predictor.
I was just thinking its one hell of a story arc from “Take it on the chin” to “Admitted to ITU” via “Operation Last Gasp”.
you could cut to him having a pint with his dad somewhere in act 2
That BBC article about school closures is ridiculous. Schools are the first thing to close and last thing to open, and that's precisely what's happened in just about every country.
The only reason to reopen schools is to spread the virus as fast as possible, they are a fantastic vector of disease spread and perfect if you really want apply the "herd" strategy.
Why do the BBC insitst on publishing stuff that's so clearly off the wall? They give the same value to the outliers (which there will always be) as the reasoanable rational consensus and it does the public a great disservice. It was the BBC who gave space to the Oxford virologist who claims the virus is only live for a very short time, less than a week, whereas almost every other source I've seen says up to two weeks and some highly trustworthy medics at the front line say they are sometimes faced with cases that are still infectious after a month.
you could cut to him having a pint with his dad somewhere in act 2
Act 2 is shaking hands in the Covid-19 ward I reckon.
As far as Trump goes, you should check out what his son-in-law is doing:
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1247335425074696199
However to wish somebody ill says more about yourself than than anything else.
I think people are quick to conflate "does not wish Johnson well" with "wishes Johnson harm", and I don't think it's accurate. It certainly isn't with me - I feel sorry for his family and friends and the millions of people the support him, but I'm really just indifferent myself. Is he somewhat hoist by a petard jointly manufactured by himself and his party? I rather think he is.
even more reason for them to be open and above board, prevent any accusations of “insider” dealing ie shorting the pound because you know the pm is worse than no10 are admitting
That is a fair point - it has also crossed my mind. His condition could have been strictly need to know. The post was more a what if... without going into too much detail, it's just another thing to debate. In reality there are probably a multitude of reasons why things have been handled the way they have. It may be another 30 years before we find out.
@speedster
Only 2/3 of patients in ITU are ventilated. It’s not the only thing ITU offers.
I stand corrected
A different thing:
express article, so large pinch of salt
The study found that more than half of the sample of intensive care patients died due to COVID-19 complications while the other 50 percent were discharged.
ignoring the glaring maths error there, the numbers are not good for those admitted:
The research body found that of 690 coronavirus patients in intensive care with known outcomes, 346 died.
ICL modelling suggested little difference in death toll from school closures. I would assume, perhaps coldly, this will come down do a triage call on lives lost from not 'getting the economy back on track' vs lives lost from the viral spread via school contacts.
CPAP for johnson sounds right based on current thinking among medics I know on covid wards.
Based on this they don't want to ventilate too early
How terrible to wish this kind of ill upon a fellow human being.
+1
No one has said it out loud - they're too smart for that - but it's implied.
No one has said it out loud – they’re too smart for that – but it’s implied.
How terrible to carry that level of paranoia.
Not just the BBC edukator all other outlets running with it.
But paper itself says that doing track & trace much more effective, which is what countries like s.korea & Germany have been able to do early & help flatten curve. As we left it so late to ramp up testing were not able to do that yet.
And for some reason it's something Cummings is not a fan of.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-coronavirus-big-tech
Also says you'd have to maintain 2m rule within schools, would be a physical challenge , but doable with older kids, with younger ones not a hope!
Paranoia? Don't think so.
@speedstar Ordinarily you’re right, however at the moment we’re trending towards 100% ventilated, and the ones that aren’t are people we’ve extubated.
Measures short of ventilation that we’d ordinarily use on ITU are being done elsewhere.
However, you never know one of them might step up and actually put the country before their own interests and do a good job. Fingers crossed.
This is my hope, Raab proved himself beyond useless as Brexit secretary, you can bet the others are circling as usual (Tory leadership battles always remind me of the death of the Skeksi emporrer at the start of the Dark Crystal movie)
Gove isn't stupid & with his history of backstabbing Johnson , he's probably lining up his allies.
Government of national unity would be nice to see & with Corbyn go e many Tories be more amenable to it, but I just don't believe they are altruistic enough (I'd love to be proved wrong)
It was the BBC who gave space to the Oxford virologist who claims the virus is only live for a very short time, less than a week, whereas almost every other source I’ve seen says up to two weeks
Can you post some links to some of the 'every other source' so we can judge for ourselves?
I assume you're talking about a version of this story posted by SOM:
Also can you link to the BBC version of the article you're talking about which might fill in some of the gaps.
In the same way that you don’t go in to hospital late sunday for ‘routine checks’ as ‘a precaution’, you don’t go in to ITU at this point in time as ‘a precaution’ to be ‘close to a ventilator’.
That ITU doctor from Manchester (hero) who's doing interviews with Radio 5 after his shifts late at night said this was consistent with his department.
They are moving people quite proactively into ITU if blood oxygen levels are variable and get them on CPAP/close monitoring as the disease can progress rapidly in hours. He described giving mobile phones to people who looked fine to speak to family when he knew the odds were against them.
So according to him, the next 24 hours is key. Some patients are on CPAP for 24 hours and then back out again to recover. The rest are intubated and that's where the 50/50 odds (he said his dept was 54/46) apply.
Also says you’d have to maintain 2m rule within schools, would be a physical challenge
If would be a challenge if you trebled the number of classrooms and teachers and doubled or trebled the size of all the corridors. As it stands it would simply not be possible.
In the article they compare with SARS and normal flu but omit to say that all the evidence points to CVG19 being far more contaigeous. Omission of the most important fact.
The paper says track and trace is more effective - than what exactly. Track and trace, yes great, but put thousands of kids in proximity whatever their age and you'll get transmission and then try tracing the thousands of kids. A few kids came back from Italy to Madame's school just before the end of confinement, on learning of the Italian problem many parents did the intelligent thing and simply took their kids out of school, just checking the contacts of those who didn't was an administive headache.
I've worked in schools enough to know how things spread and it's just as bad in siwth forms as in middle schools. They contaminated everything around them, and training them to protect themselves is a lost cause. In most scools I think you'll find respect the 2m rule means reducing clas size to <10 and organising staggered starts to classes to reduce numbers in corridors.
Anyhow, the only sense in the article came from Imperial as usual. They had the last word but it was unfortunately lost in all the other crap.
I have every sympathy for Boris Johnson as a human being, just as I have for everyone else in the same position. Equally I think his politics and general character are abhorrent. The two positions are not incompatible. I hope he pulls through.
I also wrote a lot of stuff about us needing to go beyond a public response based largely on emotion, then realised that basically there's nothing I can do about it, so deleted it. But it does worry me that there's a finite limit to how long you can maintain a lockdown based on emotional response, particularly where there's no obvious end to it.
And yes, I get that there are scientists and researchers behind the scenes doing just that evidence-based research and strategic thinking, but not much of that is making its way through on the public-facing front.
as the actions of BJ/his govt have undoubtedly caused thousands of additional deaths in this health crisis
HAve they ? Or have they also saved thousands ? Who's to say ? Are the Italian government imcompetent too ? The Spanish ones ? Belgians ?
Also says you’d have to maintain 2m rule within schools, would be a physical challenge
Impossible. As I said way back, my diabetic son was spat on the day before we took him out of school. Open up schools and you’ve given up controlling the spread. A different path might be possible IF we can confine the virus geographically, opening schools in areas with low or no infection, but ‘we’ blew that chance ages ago I suspect, by being slow to test and contain when Johnson and his cabinet of stooges were on extended post victory jollies and not acting on what was happening in other countries.
I'll say it again - actually, **** it, I won't. I lost days of my life trying to talk reasonably in online "see who shouts loudest" contests over Brexit, and all it did was raise my blood pressure. So yeah, if you want to conflate my indifference to Johnson's health with wishing him dead, you go ahead and fill your incorrect boots.
Also says you’d have to maintain 2m rule within schools, would be a physical challenge
Mrs SWSD has been "teaching" a class of 12 6-10 year olds. In a standard classroom you can space them to sit about 1.5 metres apart. Only they don't stay sat still. And let them outside and all concept of social distancing goes by the board.
Her opinion of that professor's fine theories is that he hasn't really thought it through.
Trump is an unmitigated disaster managing a national crisis.
That's very polite of you.