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How then are they now alleged to have made all these 'promises'?
Their "promises" were: "we'll make Britain great", "we'll taken power back", "we'll bring an end to free movement" etc etc.
unsubstantiated promises which have been dropped
Which [i]actual[/i] promises though?
can you point me to anything that was [i]actually[/i] promised?
or is it just good one fashioned whinging?
Edit:
"we'll bring an end to free movement"
Do we still get bendy bananas? Or was that a lie too?
Is disappoint.
too right ninfan it was a great con from day one, unfortunately a number of people didn't spot that. Good job you did... you won't be dissapointed when none of it happens
Gove was promising things from the 24th onwards.
Wrong on all counts.
How then are they now alleged to have made all these 'promises'?
I have to say @ninfan you are on a roll 🙂 Bingo - Full 'ouse !!
BTW Farage always said the £350m claim was a mistake, he's happy to say that before and after the vote. It wasn't his campaign that came up with the slogan. As I said repeatedly the number was irrelevant and anyway its not fixed and the trend had been clearly upwards nit leas as UK was outperforming
A campaign can't make any promises or have a manifesto as its not a Government or even a political partry, Osbourne however is the (was a 😉 ) chancellor so where's the punishment budget ? Michael Fallon couldn't explain when armed conflict was expected to break out either.
Nothing could possibly be delivered on day 1 as the Leave campaign said. Nothing at all has changed today.
So I see our EU comissioned (who until 3 months ago I had NEVER heard of) has confirmed what a sleezeball he is by resigning just at the point he has some real work to do.
As I said repeatedly the number was irrelevant and anyway its not fixed and the trend had been clearly upwards nit leas as UK was outperforming
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Such a shame they didn't have a marker pen or something to change it on the bus. It's really up there as they meant it...
@Jamba-isn't this kind of political wriggling and swerving exactly the kind of behaviour a number of leave supporters voted in protest against.
The tone of the debate was that a vote to leave is a vote for less immigrants, a vote for more money to the UK instead of the EU and more jobs for British people.
To say these were not promises is technically true but is not the way they were sold to the public. At no point did anyone from VL say a vote to leave is a vote to keep immigration at the same level. They are saying that now though.
They kept saying the free movement of people from within the EU was unsustainable and that it must end. I'm listening to yesterday's any questions on R4 now and Chris Grayling very specifically said yes free movement must go. Now Hannan is saying it'll probably stay.
At no point did they say 'you see that £350m figure on the side of our bus, there right above more spending on the NHS? Well it doesn't actually exist and it's certainly not going on the NHS'. They're saying it now.
They made a number of statements about how leaving the EU would mane Britain great again and they're now saying 'well that was just an idea-it'll probably not happen though'.
The average voter doesn't understand the difference between a manifesto promise, a policy suggestion or a hope and a prayer. They don't understand that a slogan or catchy headline used in a referendum debate isn't the same as one used by a party during an election.
Nothing at all has changed today.
You're joking? I recall the [b]promises[/b] made by remain, such as:
"As a historian, I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilization in its entirety,"
These post Brexit scenes just in from Kent
hahahaha [img]Nothing at all has changed today
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I'm sure all the Leave voters who expected NHS money, end to EU immigration and all the rest will now say "yes, you're right, you got me there good and proper guv'nor. Well.played me old China" and get back to their business with a merry tune.
@ninfan-it's far too early to call that. Let's see what position the economy is in in 6 months-a years time.
Let's see start the details of the trade deals are when we have them.
We can however today say that leave have already backtracked on two of theirs.
Yes, remain may be called out also but it'll take longer to find out and they may well be proved right...
Ninfan - Donald Tusk was part of the Remain campaign? Gosh!!
@danny immigration has been a real issue in the UK for a while. Both the Tories (with their target) and Labour (demonstrated by the mug) focused on it in 2015. It was always going to be central to the campaign. The EU where well aware of this, Cameron tried to get some meaningful reforms (like a benefit/welfare freeze) but he was rebuffed. The EU has a choice, it could have chosen a path which would have mitigated the concerns but they did not.
As for the £350m lets keep an eye on our budget contributions for the next two years, they are not going down imo - quite the contrary.
As for free movement - I am good with any EU citizen having access to a visa but with a cap which we set annually based on needs. I am also very much of the view we need to do what Singapore does when it grants visas - it looks at the skills you are bringing and the contribution you will make in terms of balue added and tax. Everyone should pay enough tax fo cover services, health and there should be no in work benefits and no housing provision.
immigration has been a real issue in the UK for a while. Both the Tories (with their target) and Labour (demonstrated by the mug) focused on it in 2015.
Yes the perception of immigration has been a problem and convincing people that it's actually good for the country has been tough. It's also been hijacked by the right wing and pushed hard. People are being told it's a problem and the reason life is tough when in fact that immigration is making the economic position better.
Thats also where the racists come in.
Then there has been the blurring of the lines between Legal EU movement and the migrant crisis which has been done to create the fear and worry - remember all your posts about refugees in Germany?
Everyone should pay enough tax fo cover services, health and there should be no in work benefits and no housing provision.
Damm fine idea, most of the EU migrants did.
Hopefully Leave will back down and sign up to Europe properly instead of this farcical shit we're in now.
But Hannan has stated complete free movement, exactly as we currently have, is likely to continue and that VL never explicitly said otherwise.
Plus Calais is at some point going to dump thousands of angry disillusioned refugees on Kent. No way on gods earth are the French going to allow our border to stay on their soil and why should they. We want to take control back don't we?
Perhaps we should focus efforts on the things that people fear the most - like spiders an the dark, maybe vote leave could promise to ban darkness
And spiders. 'Specially foreign spiders...
except that we would be in a worse position to negotiate than before and any special concessions that we had would be toastHopefully Leave will back down and sign up to Europe properly instead of this farcical shit we're in now.
except that we would be in a worse position to negotiate than before and any special concessions that we had would be toast
Yep, no rebate, no MEPs, no say in EU laws (which we have to follow) and no passport control. The Norwegian model.
So we pay more for less 🙂
Oh the ironing...
and a 2 year long recession / house price crash as a transition to this new Utopia!
Must admit I don't get the the "we've won" get over it mentality.....considering you don't know what you've won.
Will Wales, Cornwall, Museums, UK science, MTB trailbuilding etc still see the EU cash propping them up in the Norwegian model?
Out are they to rely on the benevolence of our new Tory government ?
Reversion to a pre-Maastricht scenario i.e. free movement of labour for jobs rather than just pitching up?
And considering that Farage said if VL lost they wouldn't be silenced, they would keep on banging the drum until they get what they wanted.
So it's OK for Farage and his VL supporters to pledge to keep on banging on until they win a referendum yet those on the remain side are expected to shut up after a few hours.
Some of us have had something taken away from us that we'll never get back, something we believed passionately in and we were proud to be part of.
Don't forget some remainers actually liked being part of a political union and reasons for staying went far beyond economic arguments, trade agreements and immigration.
@nipper-the very large proportion of EU migrants did rock up to a job and under the renegotiation anyone that didn't have a job could be sent home.
CMD actually did quite a good job there.
I'm sorry all, but the elephant in the room needs to be addressed. The leave campaign "won" on the vote on the large number of bigots and closet racists they corralled. That's why I woke up yesterday morning feeling sick. That's how the rest of the world see's us and that's how half of the U.K regards at each other. I'm not proud to be British anymore. I feel like an outsider in my own country.
Sorry for lowering the mood, get back to your politics.
I can't remember the leave campaign actualy making any promises, in fact it was the main reason I could never vote leave, I had no idea what we supposed to gain apart from some vague notion of 'taking back control'
We've been in a game of 'deal or no deal' and chosen a potentially empty box over a guaranteed payout. The leavers are cheering before its even been opened.
Just to go back to the point made on the first page by TurnerGuy, because I feel it really wasn't pushed or explained by the remain side...
The NHS gets paid when it treats EU patients. If a French patient is treated over here they're logged on a government system and we send a bill to the French government, who cough up the cash as long as the patient has an ehic card.
If they don't have an EHIC then they're treated like any other foreign patient and we get the money back from their insurers or from the patient themselves. If they don't pay then the NHS can put a marker on them so that the border agency stop them and make them pay.
Overseas patients don't have any right to free (apart from a&e, maternity and a couple of other exceptions) NHS treatment and they're not behind the continuing rises in demand for care.
that's how half of the U.K regards at each other.
We've recognised this. We live in an area that was very strongly Leave, and earlier we found ourselves in a busy National Trust cafe, popular with the older generation. The thought crossed both our minds that all these people, happily going about their business as if nothing had happened, were those who had basically just done us all over. It was very difficult to get over.
Extra ironic as the National Trust were on the Remain side.
@ andy8442 - yup, ashamed is the feeling I have at the moment.
It was very difficult to get over.
Just content yourself with the fact they'll all be dead soon and we can then start to fix things.....