[Closed] Where does Leave now stand on its promises?

£350m for the NHS. That's already been dismissed as 'a mistake'

I don't think that was ever actually said - more like that's 350m that we don't have control over - and suggestions as to what we could do with it.

For immigration control why can we not just say you need 'paperwork' to get benefits, use the NHS, work, etc in this country and the only way to get the 'paperwork' is to be official, and introduce very big fines for those employing 'unofficial' immigrants.

therefore the UK would be a lot less attractive for economic immigrants, and so eventually less would come.

The main issue is people destroying any evidence of where they came from, so they couldn't be ejected from the country.

The main issue is people destroying any evidence of where they came from, so they couldn't be ejected from the country.

If you’re caught employing an illegal worker

you may get a civil penalty of up to £20,000 for each illegal worker

I don't understand how Leave could promise anything. They were not a party, so don't have a manifesto, and made up of many parties. The promises were just ideas that have no basis in reality, which will be exposed over the coming months.

I think you are confusing the legal migration under EU rules (all people have to show travel docs to enter) and illegal migration and finally people seeking asylum. They are 3 very different things, people from the EU didn't need to hide where they came from as they were able to work here legally. Leaving the EU won't address the other 2.

why not.

If you want to work in this country you need a national insurance number, same for the NHS.

We can now be more choosy about who gets a national insurance number, so we can give them out to people seeking asylum or to skilled labour if we so choose.

Anyone without a national insurance number is illegal.

simples.

@TurnerGuy - OK they didn't explicitly say it but the battle bus was so worded that the common populous would infer it

[Img] [/img]

It's a very dishonest way of doing things...

Leave seemed to be running on the following promises, hopes, desires; call them what you will.

But, what are they now saying about them now they've won?

Remember, it was a referendum not an election; the country decided on the direction of travel, they didn't vote for the leave campaign. Policies will all come later.

I think the media can be blamed here, with their constant insistence on using terms like 'won' and 'lost'. Its not about winning, its about guaging public opinion.

It's a very dishonest way of doing things...

and the remain campaign kept going on about workers rights, and if you look into it (Checkws posts again...) then most of them originated without the EU anyway.

And with its neoliberal viewpoint workers rights were a low priority in the EU anyway.

so bs on both sides.

Undoubtedly but as Leave 'won' based on their BS is it not right to scrutinise it?

Also I can't think of one Remain 'lie' they'd have to backtrack on. They may not have been entirely truthful but it's not like they said we'd give you more money, more jobs etc.

They said the economy would be weaker if we left, our place in the world will be diminished etc and Leave said that was all scaremongering so it's up to Leave to prove it was scaremongering by strengthening the economy, retaining our place at the top table etc

@Duffer yes you're right but that is not how the public as a while viewed it. I wish there had been far more nuanced debate and a much better explanation of the key issues and underlying principles but most people should not have taken any notice in this soundbite, 160 character headline world we currently live in.

why not.

If you want to work in this country you need a national insurance number, same for the NHS.

Getting a National Insurance Number
When you live and work in the UK you need to have a NI number in order to pay your National Insurance contributions if you want to have access to certain benefits like state pensions and student loans. The opposite is also valid, however. In order to be able to apply for a NI (National Insurance) number you need to have the right to live and work in the UK.

Wow they did, to work in the UK you needed to get a NI Number, that involves showing you are legally able to work in the UK.

Are you sure you are not trying to mix up legal, illegal and asylum seeking into one argument?

Wow they did, to work in the UK you needed to get a NI Number, that involves showing you are legally able to work in the UK.

Are you sure you are not trying to mix up legal, illegal and asylum seeking into one argument?

no, the point is we will not have to give out NI numbers to anyone who wishes to come over from the EU, unless we choose to. Same with asylum seekers.

It's a pretty simple idea, why are you having so much issue with it ?

Except as per my OP Daniel Hannan is now saying that they are open to the idea of continuation of free movement and that control of immigration wasn't something Leave committed to.

Again, looking at what was said no they didn't but the implication was very clear that vote leave = less immigration and the end to free movement in particular.

Except as per my OP Daniel Hannan is now saying that they are open to the idea of continuation of free movement and that control of immigration wasn't something Leave committed to.

well he is a d1ck then, as a lot of people thought.

I don't think that was ever actually said - more like that's 350m that we don't have control over - and suggestions as to what we could do with it.

no, the point is we will not have to give out NI numbers to anyone who wishes to come over from the EU, unless we choose to. Same with asylum seekers.

It's a pretty simple idea, why are you having so much issue with it ?

That is exactly the issues that VL tapped into

Saying 350m for the NHS and immigration is too high, well fix it over and over to win votes and now saying,
nah that was just a suggestion is going to leave those voters bitterly betrayed

Newsnight last night was a lesson in how duplicitous VL have been

For immigration control why can we not just say you need 'paperwork' to get benefits, use the NHS, work, etc in this country and the only way to get the 'paperwork' is to be official, and introduce very big fines for those employing 'unofficial' immigrants.

therefore the UK would be a lot less attractive for economic immigrants, and so eventually less would come.

[b]The main issue is people destroying any evidence of where they came from, so they couldn't be ejected from the country.[/b]

All in the back

What they will do is

1) fail spectacularly to get any deal with the EU for access that does not reqyire us ti be basically a member and paying up
2) blame the EU for why everything went wring for the next decade

They will also be clever and invite cross part support for the negotiations so
1) they cannot refuse or they will be seen as not supporting the country and putting politics first
2) when it fails all political parties are left equally to blame

On the positive side Farage is going to be unemployed.

It still possible there will be a second vote n whether to accept the result of negotiationed position or to "remain" in the EU as most MP's are still pro the EU - what with being bright er than average or richer than average or older than average - delete as per own bias.

Either way there are going to be a lot of disappointed voters when they realise they just voted for snake oil from the slipperiest of salesmen.

as a simple way of answering the OP you know the plastic tub the athletes put their stuff in at the 100m start, that like the promises they made
this was what happened once the results were in
[img] [/img]

He was also a prominent Leave campaigner...

Look I'm happy to wait and see but no one on either side can deny that people voted to leave because they believe (largely due to what was said by the Leave camp during the campaign but not necessarily entirely) that the UK's future is best served by going it alone.

It is therefore up to the Leave camp to prove this to be the case and to make the UK stronger than before.

They actually have a much harder job to do than remain aphid have had-they never gave hope of better, they simply would have had to maintain the status quo.

So far though Leave are distancing themselves from the very issues they campaigned on.

And @Mike-perfect illustration!!

Chewkw invoked in an appeal to authority...twice! 😯

I don't think that was ever actually said - more like that's 350m that we don't have control over - and suggestions as to what we could do with it.

OK they didn't explicitly say it but the battle bus was so worded that the common populous would infer it

Let's just clear this one up shall we? They did explicitly say it. ([url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/ ]Telegraph report[/url].)

Campaigners promised to use the money the UK reportedly sends to the EU to fund the health service instead.

[img] [/img]

It was an outright barefaced lie. There is nothing to discuss or debate here, they lied, end of.

Ah but mint-that is just an idea, a thought. Not a promise or a commitment.

All the Leave BS is as such. They have dangled it in front of the electorate as nailed on future policy but it is all just the musings of what might be. It was a very clever campaign but will it come back to haunt them?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/evan-davis-newsnight-bbc-daniel-hannan-mep-eu-referendum-brexit_uk_576e2967e4b08d2c56393241?edition=uk&ir=UK&section=uk_uk&utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

personally I'm looking forward to the return of these
[img] [/img]

The Leave campaign is exactly that, a campaign. Its about this and future governments deciding what to do and being able to act freely.

As for grants etc thats up to the EU whilst we are still a member, which we will be for at least 2 years

Why aren't we blaming the gutter tabloid press anyway ?

They were aware of any BS in the campaigns, could easily have pointed it out, and by not doing so and positively encouraging people to vote out had a lot more power over the result than the campaigns did.

So you're okay with the lies then?

Its about this and future governments deciding what to do and being able to act freely.

Yep, it was all about that. They just promised the earth so you would stroke their ego. Now you have done that it's back to they were just thought bubbles, why would you think anyone would actually do any of them, or that any of them were possible if in fact based on any kind of fact.

Why aren't we blaming the gutter tabloid press anyway ?

Why don't we blame the public who went, what free lunch every day and a happy ending all for free??? Where do I sign up.

We're going to "leave" the EU, but I can't help thinking that at the end of this expensive farce, the remainers are going to be happier than the leavers.

Does anyone actually think the EU will issue any NEW grants to the UK in the two years following Article 50?
We'll be lucky if they don't try to wriggle out of any existing ones...

From what I'd read triggering article 50 means we no longer sit at the table other than to negotiate our [s]demise[/s] exit.

We have no say on any other matter...

From the Indy

A government must trigger the article by officially notifying the EU of its intention to leave. Then there is a two-year period in which the terms of the leaver’s exit are negotiated. During this time Britain would no longer be able to take part in any EU decision-making, and any exit agreements must be approved by all 27 remaining EU nations and the European Parliament. Then after Britain’s formal exit, fresh negotiations can begin on any new trade deals.

Of more concern

The Treaty of Lisbon was drafted with the idea that [Article 50] would not be used, and to make it pretty hard to exit in a smooth way...

Does this mean the other 27 can unilaterally stop existing grants? I don't know but if they try we're not at the table to object.

The Leave campaign is exactly that, a campaign. Its about this and future governments deciding what to do and being able to act freely.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

If you could pedal forwards as fast as you're peddling backwards you'd be ****in' Lance Armstrong !!

Apparently people misunderstood the leave message on immigration.

They only said they would control it not reduce it is the official line...

You do get the impression the Leave campaign never really thought they'd win and have to deliver any of this....

[img] [/img]

You do get the impression the Leave campaign never really thought they'd win and have to deliver any of this....

It's almost as if the Leave leaders just used it to further their own personal ends!!

I don't think they did think they'd win. They wanted to bloody a few noses, rough up Cameron but they now actually have to sort shit out.

Can all remainers please take it on the chin. There was a vote, you lost, get over it. Otherwise you look like a toddler not accepting NO for an answer.

I don't think they did think they'd win. They wanted to bloody a few noses, rough up Cameron but they now actually have to sort shit out.

And despite being a cross party group that could have stood together to form a party/cabinet/group to spearhead change they are now playing the it's not policy - though we told you it would happen, we can't make those sort of calls etc.

Lets face it they lied. People were taken in - it was the plan from day 1 because there were not enough idiots to vote for leave on the truth

Can all remainers please take it on the chin. There was a vote, you lost, get over it. Otherwise you look like a toddler not accepting NO for an answer.

Maybe when the leave voters actually step up and start to offer some ideas about how they are going to sort all this shite out.

I accept the result 100%-I'm just expecting the leave camp now to deliver this vision of a stronger more prosperous UK.

A genuine question for you. Are you entirely happy that the reasons you voted leave for are going to be delivered. Did you vote leave for more money for the NHS or for lower immigration and if so are you not disappointed it seems this isn't and never was the intent of the leave camp?

And to say shut up, get over it. Was it not Farage who said if leave lost then they must not be silenced,must keep banging the drum and pushing for change?!

So he would have (successfully undoubtedly) kept the noise up but we must shut up?

Is it not important for everyone to carefully consider and debate the next moves, to consider the promises made as yes leave won and we must all deal with the consequences. To heal the divisions both sides must be listened to and both sides must help move this thing forward.

Hang on - just a few days ago everyone from remain was complaining that the leave campaign hadn't given any detail of what they were going do afterwards

How then are they now alleged to have made all these 'promises'?

FF spot on. There were misjudgements all round right up to the final whistle. VL could lie because they never thought that they would win, CMD didn't think he would lose, and JC watched from the sidelines hoping that the Tories would self destruct and leave him in a string position.

And now we have #fakecontorl, the lies exposed for what they are and immediate scrambling and backtracking. Bojo and Gove will ultimately be toast because they will fail to deliver - how could they, they proposed false answers to made up problems? The only positive for them is this will take time. But they are now 100% exposed and they look less attractive naked don't they?

JC, well.....

CMD misjudged. Must feel v low right now but will be off to the private sector and a happy new career.

Meanwhile the Turkeys are basting nicely. Hard luck or their own fault - you decide, it doesn't matter - they will be the ultimate losers, Sad but as the quotes - here or elsewhere - that democracy relies on education to work properly will be proved correct.

No surprise where the educated voted.

How then are they now alleged to have made all these 'promises'?