An ex senior copper has said a few times, the prisons are full, the kids arent afraid, and are defiant, most of them are in poorly paid or no jobs, so they have no income to seize, if you take their council houses off them the governmnet still has to pay them Housing benefit,they have few useful skills of use to the rest of civilisation.
So what can we do with them, death is not an option.
Medical experiments?
Organ donation? Mt daughter could do with a new pancreas.
Army, and pack them off to the middle east, two problems solved
Landfill
just give them all the birch.
a little bit of suffering is good for the soul.
One of the things I am always keen on - restorative justice. Cleaning up the city. 40 hrs a week of unpaid labour for as long as seems reasonable. months perhaps.
chain gangs - there's a high speed railway that needs building.....after they tidy up first
That's a very good point, and one that nicely illustrates the problem with the intellectually feeble authoritarian concept of crime and punishment.
The best way to stop people committing crimes is to stop them wanting to commit crimes...
[i]An ex senior copper has said a few times, the prisons are full[/i]
Not entirely true, we've got 4 spare cells on G wing alone, we would've had 5 but one's been smashed & will be out of action for some time cos works don't have a sink or toilet that will fit. (don't even ask why)
There aren't actually that many of them, enough that its a lot to deal with in one go but not so many that prison or any other punishment isn't an option.
What have council houses got to do with anything?
As for the rioters that have been identified so far - primary school worker, graphic designer, student, squaddy.
Organ donation has already been suggested as a way for students to clear their debts and the squaddy almost definiately won't see active service now.
[i]The best way to stop people committing crimes is to stop them wanting to commit crimes...[/i]
Lets hear it then.
could juts go back to manual rock crushing, i am sure there are a few islands off the scottish coast that could be used as granite quarries.
give them the odd food drop and some tools and leave them to it.
corporal punishment will make em want to stop commiting crimes.
Ton, I love you. (not literally of course) 😳
😆
corporal punishment will make em want to stop commiting crimes.
have to agree corporal punishment isn't going to work, just need to find away of removing from society and getting something useful done.
essel - when I worked in the jail my overwhelming impression was what a waste of everyone time. I was in Pentonville - there were many hundreds of young men in there doing absolutly eff all day after day. especially when incarcerating most of them will change nothing
It just seemed such a waste.
Your thoughts seeing as we are on a crime and punishment sort of day>
Good point TJ
Hard labour would at least mean they were doing something instead of doing absolutly eff all day after day.
Personally, I've always been in favour of Prisons becoming domestic recycling sorting centres! Give 'em a chance to do something for the benefit of society and the environment.
Bin lorries in one end, recycling out the other 😀
How about an amnesty for them?
They'll have to work for it though first, drop them off in the middle of the English Channel and if they make it back to shore they are free to go.
We need to outsource. I'm sure the Chinese would provide prison places for a reasonable price. Zimbabwe could do with some cash I'd imagine.
TandemJeremy
One of the things I am always keen on - restorative justice. Cleaning up the city. 40 hrs a week of unpaid labour for as long as seems reasonable. months perhaps
I'm all for this but it should be taken a step further with all unemployed been given work to do regardless of what they did before. It would keep them occupied, install working ethics in those that haven't worked before and hopefully give themselves some respect. The public services would have more than enough staff and a solution to elderly care.
Just because I've agreed with you on this don't let it go to your head, I'm sure we can disagree later.
One of the things I am always keen on - restorative justice. Cleaning up the city. 40 hrs a week of unpaid labour for as long as seems reasonable. months perhaps.
OMG.. I agree with TJ, except the 40 hours a week bit.. work them so hard they are to knackered to do anything else
corporal punishment will make em want to stop commiting crimes.
Can you elaborate on that - why would it do that ? Or haven't you thought about it ?
Personally I can't imagine that corporal punishment would be any more effective in stopping re-offending than other available options.
Of course you could be just trolling ton, in which case, please accept my sincerest apologies for missing an obvious troll.
I just hope they don't start issuing [s]ASBOs[/s] medals.
I believe though's that are under age But happy to do the crime
Should be sentenced but do the sentence when they are of age.
Because at the moment they know that they are of age that they can't be touched.
Also get rid of the Human rights too.
Also get rid of the Human rights too.
What a good idea! Can I come round your house with a load of mates, smash your home up, rape your wife, torture your kids and then murder you all then?
Courts have already seen some, if they have pleaded guilty, some have been sentenced. Some are awaiting sentencing, but the first one I read about got a fine, £150! Was kind of hoping for a bit more.
There's alway the Soylent Green option of course - not sure how nutritious the end product would be though..
I agree with TJ,, theres so much work that could be done as restorative justice, like building cycle tracks, building trails, painting railings cutting hedges and lawns,recycling sorting,and quite a few more things as well.
But then what do all the council workers do , that already get paid to do such jobs.
I believe though's that are under age But happy to do the crime
Should be sentenced but do the sentence when they are of age.Because at the moment they know that they are of age that they can't be touched.
Also get rid of the Human rights too.
We're talking about England though - north of the border its a different matter but down there the age of criminal resposibility is 10 years old, and there are plenty of children in prison, some for quite trivial offenses.
Watched a documentary about children in prison all round the world, featuring a 12 year old England serving 8 months for nicking some golf clubs and some pokemon cards.
I think the Soylent Green option would be better applied to STWers; I mean, they'll be better nourished, woon't they? Not scraggy or fatty and full of chemicals....
corporal punishment will make em want to stop commiting crimes.Can you elaborate on that - why would it do that ? Or haven't you thought about it ?
Erm...?
I can imagine the prospect of a birching within 2 days of being convicted giving me a bit more pause for thought than the prospect of a 4 week suspended sentence.
Speak for yourself you little fatty - i've just been to the chippy! 😛 😆
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The best way to stop people committing crimes is to stop them wanting to commit crimes...
Lets hear it then
I don't have all the answers, obviously, but it's clear that what we do now doesn't work very well.
The best way I know of to stop people wanting to commit crimes is to improve conditions and education for everyone.
It would keep them occupied, install working ethics in those that haven't worked before
HAHAHAH! Forced labour instils a work ethic does it? Priceless! 😆
TandemJeremy - Member
One of the things I am always keen on - restorative justice. Cleaning up the city. 40 hrs a week of unpaid labour for as long as seems reasonable. months perhaps.
OH FFS! I agree with TJ!
The best way to stop people committing crimes is to stop them wanting to commit crimes...
lobotomies?
Of course corporal punishment will work - as long as you use enough of it...
nedrapier - MemberErm...?
I can imagine the prospect of a birching within 2 days of being convicted giving me a bit more pause for thought than the prospect of a 4 week suspended sentence.
Are we talking about [i]you[/i] then ?
And who mentioned a "4 week suspended sentence" ? .....neither me nor ton did.
Of course corporal punishment will work - as long as you use enough of it...
Well they use capital punishment in the states and they still have plenty of crime there. Why would that be I wonder?
Of course corporal punishment will work - as long as you use enough of it...
Well they use capital punishment in the states and they still have plenty of crime there. Why would that be I wonder?
The states illustrates TJ's point quite well - draconian sentencing, death penalties, the whole lot - and the result - massive crime rates and the biggest prison population in the world, by a massive factor.
Well they use capital punishment in the states and they still have plenty of crime there. Why would that be I wonder?
Reoffending rates from those subject to capital punishment seem to be pretty low though Molgrips 😉
INRAT
Tazer them until they sh*t themselves
ernie,: eh?. That's not a good way of moving the conversation on.
If you don't like the way I put it, imagine I said this:
"It would do that because the prospect of physical pain, possibly combined with public humiliation, would be more of a deterrent than the prospect of a small fine with an even smaller possibility of being collected and/or a short suspended sentence"
I'm not saying it should be brought in, it needs to be brought in, or that bringing it in immediately would cure all society's ills at a stroke, but you questioning the assertion that it could possibly deter crime is a bit facile. Just trolling for an argument, otherwise you'd have said something a bit more moderate and sensible.
But I bit, there's a response anyway. We've probably moved on by 30 posts by the time I post it anyway! hey ho.
Edit: missed your edit. I made up the 4 week suspended sentence as a hypothetical example of an alternative punishment. I also missed the fact that I'm a repeat troll accuser!
The states illustrates TJ's point quite well - draconian sentencing, death penalties, the whole lot - and the result - massive crime rates and the biggest prison population in the world, by a massive factor
But Singapore has the same draconian sentencing etc, and is one of the safest places in the world.
But Singapore has the same draconian sentencing etc, and is one of the safest places in the world.
precisely, so something other than punishment is the factor in why people do or don't commit crimes
it is proven that the softly softly lefty approach does not work.
would it not be only fair to bring a bit of short sharp shock type punishment into our society?
it is proven that the softly softly lefty approach does not work.
Is it?
And what's this 'THE' lefty approach? I wasn't aware each side was only allowed one each.
it is proven that the softly softly lefty approach does not work
why not try a respectful humanist approach then..
as someone said on facebook earlier.. set up a huge effin sound system and blast out some heavy heavy tunes.. give 'em access to some cheap drugs and booze..
that'll keep 'em amused for..
well, for ever really
I received corporal punishment throughout my school days, and it was by far my preferred form of punishment. Yes it hurt and some of the teachers were right sadistic bastards who would so much force that it bent gold rings and left blood blisters on your hands, but it was over and forgotten quickly.
And it has to be said that getting the cane was seen as a bit of a laugh, particularly if there were several of you getting thrashed - it was hard not giggle sometimes, especially when you saw your mates wincing in pain. Getting detention on the other hand really pissed me off.
I know that birching is far more severe, but the principles are just the same - specially when you're dealing with bad lads.
molgrips, do you think the youth of the 50's would have carried on like this.
it is proven that the softly softly lefty approach does not work.
Ton, what are you on about mate? Seriously?
Do you even know yourself?
This man was a 'Lefty'. He was not very nice:
[img] 
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(Pic from Daily Fail ftw! 😆 )
Yunki: that's a brave new world.
Couldn't we just outsource their indefinite incarceration to some dodgy third world state?
Elfin, He wasn't softly softly, either!
precisely, so something other than punishment is the factor in why people do or don't commit crimes
It does rather, doesn't it. Mind you, there's the simple issue that if someone is in prison they can't commit crimes. Simplistic, but true.
we could eye for an eye ....take organs out relative to the damage caused?
But Singapore has the same draconian sentencing etc, and is one of the safest places in the world.
It also has only 2% unemployment.
Drugs and Choons for the masses, and the Alphas moving society on through intelligent, probing discourse on STW?
Yunki: that's a brave new world.
and it would stop them feeling ostracised and victimised and would also create industry and start rebuilding mutual trust in a ma-flippin-hoosive way.. would end the drug war too..
Elfinsafety - Member
Also get rid of the Human rights too.
What a good idea! Can I come round your house with a load of mates, smash your home up, rape your wife, torture your kids and then murder you all then?
We have never needed this in our country!
All i see is people come into this country and used it so they can't be sent home when there done wrong!
Just seems to me its conveniently used with people whom have done wrong.
It also has only 2% unemployment.
So we need more employment. Cut benefits and bring back national service?
national service .. but on the streets weeding sweeping etc
So we need more employment. Cutting benefits and bringing back national service?
But in relation to these riots.... the people being charged so far aren't unemployed - Opera Steward, Forklift Truck Driver, Graphic Designer, Under Graduate, Organic Chef....
Grantway - what on earth are you on about?
You know the UK has been bound by the European convention on human rights since the 50s and that the UK was one of the countries who helped write it?
The only difference the human right act makes is incorporating this into UK law so that recourse can be thru the UK courts not strasbourg
All i see is people come into this country and used it so they can't be sent home when there done wrong!
Oh dear.
At least some of them can write betterly than wot u can....
I am aware of that But incorporating it into our law is what I don't like.
national service .. but on the streets weeding sweeping etc
That would stop looting ?
I had no idea that the solution was that easy.
Still, I don't often read the Mail/Telegraph so I guess I'm at a disadvantage.
tie them up and keep them awake while tj gives them a jolly good talking to and explains the error of their ways
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grantway - MemberI am aware of that But incorporating it into our law is what I don't like.
Makes absolutely no difference bar human rights violations can be dealt with in UK courts not Strasbourg. We still have the rights come what may - our rights did not change with the incorporation of it
totalshell - Member
national service .. but on the streets weeding sweeping etc
This. The Armed Forces do not need to be dealing with these oiks.
Oh, either that or let Ed have at 'em!
[img] 
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Bring it on.....
Ah, a bit of the old Ludwig Van! 😀
All together now:
[b]O freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen
Und freudenvollere!
Freude, schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum;
Deine Zauber binden wieder,
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.
Wem der große Wurf gelungen,
Eines Freundes Freund zu sein,
Wer ein holdes Weib errungen,
Mische seinen Jubel ein!
Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele
Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund!
Und wer's nie gekonnt, der stehle
Weinend sich aus diesem Bund.
Freude trinken alle wesen
An den Brüsten der Natur;
Alle Guten, alle Bösen
Folgen ihrer Rosenspur,
Küsse gab sie uns und Reben,
Einen Freund, geprüft im Tod;
Wollust ward dem Wurm gegeben,
Und der Cherub steht vor Gott!
Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen
Durch des Himmels Prächt'gen Plan,
Laufet, Brüder, eure Bahn,
Freudig, wie ein Held zum Siegen.
Seid umschlungen, Millionen,
Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt!
Brüder! über'm Sternenzelt
Muß ein lieber Vater wohnen,
Ihr stürzt nieder, Millionen?
Ahnest du den Schöpfer, Welt?
Such' ihn über'm Sternenzelt!
über Sternen muß er wohnen.[/b]
nedrapier - did I interview you for my PhD about 15 years ago? It's just that you remind me of a somewhat vitriolic old chap ... when asked about what he thought was the solution to the causes of environmental problems, he worked up a sweat (and reasonable amount of spittle) to sound forth about 'the need for birching and public humiliation ... punish the yoof by putting them in stocks in front of Morrisons' ...
(and to this day I still struggle to see how this will resolve desertification or climate change 🙂 )
national service .. but on the streets weeding sweeping etc
^^ This.
Sentences to be defined by a volume of collected waste. If you're a lazy git then it'll take you months to work off your sentence put your back into it and you could be done in a few weeks.
It's just that you remind me of a somewhat vitriolic old chap ... when asked about what he thought was the solution to the causes of environmental problems, he worked up a sweat (and reasonable amount of spittle) to sound forth about 'the need for birching and public humiliation ... punish the yoof by putting them in stocks in front of Morrisons' ...(and to this day I still struggle to see how this will resolve desertification or climate change :))
😆
I propperly lolled....
The human rights act was intended to stop the death camps happening again.Any scumbag that hides behind it is kind of cheapening 6 Million peoples death.
There have always been scumbags and riots.Prison doesn't work or rehabilitate. How about we let prison punish.
Flog anyone caught on video then make them mend something.
Vengeance pure and simple.
CaptainFlashheart - MemberThe Armed Forces do not need to be dealing with these oiks.
Too tough a job for the Armed Forces to take on Flashheart ?
I'm surprised at you, I really am - I thought you might have had more faith in Her Majesty's Armed Forces.
I do, Ernie, but I'd prefer that they were doing their job, rather than babysitting people who vehemently don't want to be there.
I don't think pressing people in to the armed services is the best idea. There's some merit for the idea of criminals volunteering to join, especially as it would give them all sorts of skills which are transferable in to civilian life when they've done their time. Just forcing people in isn't the best method, for either the military or for the rehabilitation of the criminals in question.
I'd prefer that they were doing their job, rather than babysitting people who vehemently don't want to be there.
I thought their job was to turn boys into men ?
Turn the children into bio fuel and run the fire engines on the result..
extreme? Perhaps. I'll get my coat.