[Closed] When is a placebo, not a placebo?

Are there any decent actual trials to show a difference?

I've been taking multiples of the recommended dosage since Saturday and [s]I'm getting sweet cravings[/s] the haemotoma has started going down, three weeks after the accident and I'm regaining some mobility too.

[i]the haemotoma has started going down, [b]three weeks[/b] after the accident [/i]

I would think that the time scale involved should not be ignored in any improvement.

Ive got pretty badly bruised forearms from an over enthusiastic karate session at the weekend. Slapped arnica all over the bruises and I think its helped stop then going black, they are now just bit red.

Who knows if they would have been worse if I hadn't used it.

Because then people start taking homeopathy instead of things like chemotherapy.

If you had read all of my post........

I'm not against western medicine it and think that crystals and magnets etc are probably a load of shite, but if works go for it, I say (as long as it is not being peddled as panacea and you have exhausted other methods)

Can you show me a trial in favour of it that wasn't sponsored by a drug company that sells the stuff or by someone who otherwise has a vested interest? Far as I knew, there aren't any.

As I said, look on pubmed. I cannot be arsed to find the studies, but they are out there. I am testing it at the moment. It costs me £2.50 a month (less than a pint) and if I feel like I have less aches and pains after a few months it is hardly going to break the bank.

😉 It wasn't going down before I started taking it though, nor was my mobility improving.

aracer - in the interest of science I haven't applied the cream to all of the bruising on my leg. 🙂

A pill the size of the Moon. Imagine...

I was in Holland And Barret on Saturday. I said to the manager "Do you still sell Glucosamine?" When she said that they did, I said "Oh that's surprising because clinical tests show that it has no effect whatsoever on human skeletal joints".

What a wonderful customer she mustuv thought you were...

This is what you want Elfy...

"Western" medicine does not disregard things becuase they "don't fit into a particualr box". Anything that works gets incoporated and the stuff that doesn't work gets thrown away, simple as that

The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

Doctors have bugger all understanding of how the mind works (not the brain) so anything that helps is worth considering, not being ingnored due to lack of understanding.

Would you prefer an optimistic doctor or a pessimistic one? I know which I'd prefer and it has nothing to do with double blind studies.

there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the bruising develops and ultimately fades more quickly.

Anecdote != evidence.

it has not been double blind tested,

Maybe you need to blacken both eyes then.

I cannot be arsed to find the studies, but they are out there.

You're the one making claims that they exist, I'm going to adopt a stance of "you're wrong" unless you can substantiate it.

I am testing it at the moment. It costs me £2.50 a month (less than a pint) and if I feel like I have less aches and pains after a few months it is hardly going to break the bank.

... which is exactly the sort of thinking that keeps these shysters in business.

Would you prefer a optimistic doctor or a pessimistic one?

I think I'd prefer a professional one rather than one who made stuff up. I go to a doctor for medical treatment, not a nice cup of tea and a sit down.

crikey - Member
Are there any decent actual trials to show a difference?

does there need to be? If you dont want help/advice thats up to you, no skin off my nose

for unofficial trials please consult my kickboxing class or the MMA fighters and rugby players i know, some people dont bother with it, some find it helps a bit, some swear by it.

certainly does no harm and im not sure there is a chemotherapy option to remove a shiner.

... which is exactly the sort of thinking that keeps these shysters in business.

Except.....

The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

[i]The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored[/i]

Can you elaborate on this?

It's very difficult, both philosophically and professionally, not to mention legally, to offer a treatment to someone that is dependent on so many variables. The placebo effect is related to how people think a treatment is going to work; the idea that injections are seen as superior to tablets or liquid medicine for example, so to utilise a placebo treatment most effectively, one would have to lie about it...

The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

Define "work" in this particular context. The only situations that I am aware of where it could be described as having an effect are for subjective self limiting and self reported symptoms. For anything with an objective measurments they are, to the best of my knoledge, useless. E.g. I want a real vaccine for the 'flu not a placebo one!

anecdotal evidence.

"dont touch that fence, its electric, you will get a shock"

there is only anecdotal evidence, till you try it yourself.

Some people swear by their OCD?

If the potion I've bought actually contains nothing, which it doesn't, then next time I can save myself some money and take a spoonful of sugar 4x a day, as long as someone can convince me it might work.

soobalis - is it the cream or the tablets you take?

[i]certainly does no harm[/i]

Ahem:

[i]Small, single doses of the herb are considered safe to use on the skin. Repeated use can cause skin reactions, severe inflammation, itching, blisters, skin ulcers, and other allergy-related skin problems. Use of very concentrated herb on the skin can increase the risk of irritation. Using the drug on broken skin or mucous membranes can irritate and increase the risk of more serious reactions.

Internal use is not recommended because arnica may cause vomiting, diarrhea, internal bleeding, rapid heartbeat, muscle weakness, nervousness, nosebleeds, and coma. At least one death has been reported. Arnica may reduce the effectiveness of medicines for high blood pressure and increase the risk of bleeding in people who take blood-thinning medications. People taking medicines that affect the heart's rhythm or function may have more serious effects from arnica.

People who are allergic to arnica may suffer runny nose, itching, hives, shortness of breath, and shock. Those with allergies to other members of the plant family Asteraceae, such as sunflowers, echinacea, marigolds, chamomile, or ragweed may be more likely to be allergic to arnica.

Effects on pregnant women and children are not well known. Women who are pregnant or breast-feeding should not use this herb. Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer may have serious health consequences
[/i]
From: http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/HerbsVitaminsandMinerals/arnica

[i]anecdotal evidence.

"dont touch that fence, its electric, you will get a shock"

there is only anecdotal evidence, till you try it yourself.[/i]

Really?

You don't go to the same swimming baths as Elfin do you? 😉

Crikey - the homeopath (read hippy at work) told me I couldn't take too much 😕 I'm worried now, I've been taking about 5 times the number of pills I should be. 😆

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12374520?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11904551?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11548224?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12405690?dopt=Abstract

Here are a few. Admittedly if you search there are more against than for, but I am open minded and have learned from experience that Western medicine does not always have the answers to everything.

I'm off to chat about what espresso machine to buy.......

kudos100 - Member
The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

Doctors have been using the placebo effect for centuries, it's just they prefer to call it 'good bedside manner' 😉

Western medicine can be so dogmatic that it will disregard something because it doesn't fit into a particular box, possibly missing that it may actually be helpful and the test is flawed.

I think that's rubbish. Western pharmaceutical companies would sell ANYTHING if they could prove it works, cos they could make huge sums of cash out of it. Things 'fitting into a box' or not has nothing to do with it.

have learned from experience that Western medicine does not always have the answers to everything

The only people who EVER say things like that are the people who want to promote alternative medicine. Western medicine knows full well it doesn't have all the answers. It's blindingly obvious of course, because people are still dying.

[i]the [b]homeopath[/b] told me I couldn't take too much I'm worried now, I've been taking about 5 times the number of pills I should be.[/i]

There is a joke in there somewhere about overdosing on homeopathic medicine; I think Dara O'Briain said 'Yes, you can overdose on homeopathic remedies; you drown'...

'Western' medicine is certainly not infallible; look up the story of Xigris, which has just been withdrawn..

and have learned from experience that Western medicine does not always have the answers to everything.

that doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.

*with thanks to Dara O'Briain

Doctors have been using the placebo effect for centuries, it's just they prefer to call it 'good bedside manner'

Exactly. How many doctors have you come across that have no social skills and can't even look you in the eye? I've had a fair few.

I think it has improved now, but doctors used to spend 1 day out of 5 or 6 years training on communication skills with patients.

As I have said we know bugger all about the workings of the mind, but we do know the placebo effect can be positive, it makes sense for doctors to try and communicate effectively and not carry on like they are god 😉

I am not against western medicine and believe it is great for certain things, but don't rule out alternative methods because they only have anecdotal evidence.

"dont touch that fence, its electric, you will get a shock"

That's not anecdotal evidence, it's readily, demonstrably provable.

Here are a few. Admittedly if you search there are more against than for

They're also small and out of date.

*with thanks to Dara O'Briain

Also, "science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop."

don't rule out alternative methods because they only have anecdotal evidence.

That's the sort of wooly thinking that sells power bands.

But anyway. I don't think anyone is; we're ruling out alternative methods because they've failed to prove efficacy during testing.

Elfinsafety - Member
What a wonderful customer she mustuv thought you were...

Oh? Why's that, then?

Oh? Why's that, then?

Because she's employed to scan items on a checkout rather than evaluate the validity of peer-reviewed studies of all their products?

I'd love to pull up Boots on their "wellbeing" range, but there's be little point in taking to task Sheila in Cosmetics about it.

TSY, what have you done/what have i missed when i've been away??

Arnica tabs and cream are a must for me when injured/bruised.

Arnica tabs and cream are a must for me when injured/bruised.

Why?

Fell off my bike 🙂

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/enjoyable-sore-legs ]Pictures on this thread.[/url]

Are you going to do a write up of your tour?

I think with your Arnica cream its a herbal remedy rather than homeopathy
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnica ]Wikipedia Arnica[/url]
Not really interested in tests for homeopathic remedies, simply reading the theory behind it is enough to make up my mind thats its nonsense.

Cougar - Member

Oh? Why's that, then?

Because she's employed to scan items on a checkout rather than evaluate the validity of peer-reviewed studies of all their products?

You have a point.

Edit, just seen your edit, will go look at the thread now. Yup, going to write up my blog and post up piccies too. Reality is a huge shock 🙁

There was an interesting programme about the power of placebo on R4 recently.

http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/my-placebo-programme-on-bbc-radio-4/
http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/part-two-of-my-radio-4-show-on-the-placebo-effect/

Personally though I think there are huge gaps in the conventional approach to medicine - certainly from my experience with ME/CFS where they've basically washed their hands of me. Yes it's fantastic for treating many many things - but it tends to be severely lacking in terms of assisting with overall wellness/happiness/healthiness.

There also seems to be an increasing tendency to look for pharmaceutical solutions to any issues. I wonder why....

The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

That made my Monday 🙂

OK, so all placebo controlled trials (blinded or otherwise) are now, by default, useless.

Although I guess we could look at alternative therapies:-

Statins - drink beer, it calms you down
Viagra - look at STYs photos on the linked thread
Fluoxetine - don't read this thread - it is depressing
Zantac - stop eating curries

That made my Monday

OK, so all placebo controlled trials (blinded or otherwise) are now, by default, useless.

Oh jesus.........

The placebo effect is ignored as in a variation of it could be a possible treatment in itself. Giving someone a sugar pill and telling them that it will work and being positive about the best possible outcome are not too dissimilar.

Doctors being taught to be more open minded, positive and to communicate better as this 'can' have a knock on effect on the mind which effects the body. "I shall please" is something that more doctors could do with adopting 😉

Grum beat me to it. HAve a look at the bad science blog and book.

The placebo effect is fascinating.

You have a point.

Had to happen eventually. (-:

Doctors being taught to be more open minded, positive and to communicate better as this 'can' have a knock on effect on the mind which effects the body. "I shall please" is something that more doctors could do with adopting

I noticed that two different doctors that I've seen in the last couple of years have finished the consultation with "...and these will make you better" or something similar.

The placebo effect is ignored as in a variation of it could be a possible treatment in itself.

We used to, actually. Doctors used to write prescriptions for 'red aspirin' - it was just chalk, no active ingredients.

These days treatment centres around "informed choice," where patients are told what they're taking rather than being lied to by doctors. If, theoretically, we were to go back to the idea of GPs giving out placebos, by definition we'd compromise that bond of trust (which is a placebo in itself). Is that a price worth paying?