[Closed] When is a placebo, not a placebo?

yes.

Or it means that something else is working, or good old regression to mean.

Arnica works really really well for things that get better on their own.

Ian - I was thinking that it might just be 'time' sorting it out TBH. That and I'm massaging the hell out of the injury whilst applying the cream.

Still can't understand why homeopaths believe that a weaker dilution makes the thing stronger 😕 I was trying to buy 100% Arnica... seems it's not the done thing 🙁

Yup, I've never got the weaker is better thing. I mean presumably tap water cures everything.

Ah, but you see, with tap water, you've not shaken it in a special way.

(the jokes write themselves, don't they)

I kind of like the idea that it's the [i]memory[/i] of the arnica that makes it homeopathic. (since to get a single usable molecule into a 10,000c arnica pill at the way they are supposed to 'dilute' it, you pill would have to be the size of the moon or thereabouts)

Which according to the old 'water cycle', also means your tap water could have the 'memory' of all sorts of other great molecules and stuff. Alcohol, sugar, uranium, George V, gold, the possibilities are endless! 😀

I'm worried that because they buried Bin Laden at sea that I'm now getting enough residual evilness every time I have a glass of tap water to have an effect on me.

I think you'll be okay, the allowable levels of arsenic in drinking water are already far higher than the levels of Bin Laden or indeed homeopathic cures.

So I'm now evil and poisoned with arsenic 🙁

There was an interesting article in New Scientist about a study that showed the placebo affect could be prescribed.

Essentially they gave out sugar pills told people they were receiving a plecebo, explained how a plecebo worked. Interestingly the results showed improvements in condition at a similar level to those receiveing sugar pills but did not know they were.

Dosn't answer your question but HTH. 🙂

Incidentally, if you get a minute the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy ]Wikipedia[/url] entry is a great read. The paragraph on "imponderables" is particularly hilarious.

I find I need a 500Mg placebo these days. The 250Mg ones just don't work anymore.

If you take something that you know to be utter homeopathic BS, knowing full well that it won't work, but then it seems to work... does this still mean it's a placebo?

Correlation => causation?

As with all things homeopathic..........TIME is a great healer

I'm massaging the hell out of the injury

This may be why it's improving, try continuing the massage but with a water based cream (E45) and see what happens.

I was in Holland And Barret on Saturday. I said to the manager "Do you still sell Glucosamine?" When she said that they did, I said "Oh that's surprising because clinical tests show that it has no effect whatsoever on human skeletal joints". To which she replied:

"Oh well, it's like anything - there's positive and negative".

Oh well, that's O.K., then...

"Oh well, it's like anything - there's positive and negative".

Negative: it doesn't work. Positive: people will buy any old shit from us.

See also: Boots selling homeopathic remedies. Call me old fashioned but shouldn't a chemist be selling, y'know, medicine? I've less of an issue with it in Holland & Barratt, stuck between the veggie hot-dogs and the pixie dust, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a pharmacy not to be selling sugar pills in 2011.

That and I'm massaging the hell out of 'the injury' whilst applying the cream.

Is that what you call it?

Our local chemist sells those £30 power balance bracelets.........

😯

I was actually advised to get the cream by a GP on Friday. Bought the sugar pills just to complete the set... was hoping there might be at least something other than sugar in them, but there isn't.

Would like to try jsut eating Arnica undiluted to see what it does.

I was in Holland And Barret on Saturday. I said to the manager "Do you still sell Glucosamine?" When she said that they did, I said "Oh that's surprising because clinical tests show that it has no effect whatsoever on human skeletal joints". To which she replied:

"Oh well, it's like anything - there's positive and negative".

Oh well, that's O.K., then...

Ohhhhhh get you.

If it's all mumbo jumbo, the what were you doing in H&B? If it's not for the yogurt raisins then I'm calling BS on your post!

From personal experiance, when I had bad joints and had become intolerant to NSAIDs one doc said glucosamine and condroitin were shown to have a mildly anti inflamatory effect so worth the money, the other said they were cheeper than anythig else that may/may not have an effect and they had never been shown to make things worse.

Grum - in that instance would I really want the swelling to go down?

Placebo and Placebo effect are two different things.

A placebo 'should' have no value, but sometimes they do. This is the placebo effect and can be a reet nuisance as it's really difficult to explain clinically.

So, if you take arnica, you may get a placebo effect even if there's no clinically provable benefit. It's the clinically provable bit that's important with arnica or glucosamine - as long as the bottles don't state that clinical benefit is proven, they can be pretty much sold for any reason.

So whether crystals, magnets, spells, or homeopathy works is impossible (today) to prove. Whether they do 'work' or whether they induce a form of self-healing we don't understand or whether it's all utter bollox is beyond proving.

Having said all of that - beer works for almost all ills.

beer works for almost all ills.

I can guarantee you that for haemotomas on your legs, drinking a lot and standing around in pubs, will not make it better, this is a medically researched FACT.

If it's all mumbo jumbo, the what were you doing in H&B? If it's not for the yogurt raisins then I'm calling BS on your post!

Sandwich spread. Really, "this is not..." grumpy Monday morning, is it?

Have you tried massaging the beer into your legs?

I said nothing about drinking it.....

Ahhh... Maybe I could spill a couple of drops onto my leg this evening.

What about red wine? That's got anti-oxidants in it, right?

if you need to get rid of a black eye quickly, take arnica.

[i]if you need to get rid of a black eye quickly, take arnica.[/i]

Why?

Why?

Arnica cream however is not "homeopathy" in its traditional sense (where you dilute the hell out it). It is simply a natural product of the Arnica plant suspended in a gel. There are measurable levels of the natural product in there.

Whether it is actually effective, or any more effective than rubbing the same cream without the "active ingredient" is unknown - but it could be.

Fair point Poly - the cream I've got is 0.9% Arnica... I was hoping for 50% or something.

Incidentally, if you get a minute the Wikipedia entry is a great read. The paragraph on "imponderables" is particularly hilarious

Ah the naysayers of STW out again. If placebo works (which it does) why dismiss it? The nocebo effect also can work (reverse placebo) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1931727,00.html

In the case of glucosamine there have been clinical trials both in favor and against it. Have a read on pubmed.

Western medicine can be so dogmatic that it will disregard something because it doesn't fit into a particular box, possibly missing that it may actually be helpful and the test is flawed.

I'm not against western medicine it and think that crystals and magnets etc are probably a load of shite, but if works go for it, I say (as long as it is not being peddled as panacea and you have exhausted other methods)

kudos100 +1

Except I

think that crystals and magnets etc are [i]definitely[/i] a load of shite,

Arnica cream however is not "homeopathy" in its traditional sense

Some is, some isn't - you can get homeopathic arnica preparations and regular ones. Amusingly, the stuff with active ingredients falls under medicine regulations that homeopathy doesn't; so, the homeopathic remedy can claim efficacy and the medicine can't.

crikey - Member
if you need to get rid of a black eye quickly, take arnica.

Why?

why not?
there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the bruising develops and ultimately fades more quickly.

Take it orally, like as in homeopathic remedy?

If placebo works (which it does) why dismiss it?

Because then people start taking homeopathy instead of things like chemotherapy.

In the case of glucosamine there have been clinical trials both in favor and against it.

Can you show me a trial in favour of it that wasn't sponsored by a drug company that sells the stuff or by someone who otherwise has a vested interest? Far as I knew, there aren't any.

there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the bruising develops and ultimately fades more quickly

Ah, but it has not been double blind tested, so cannot possibly have any benefit.

[i]anecdotal evidence[/i]
Oxymoron?

Are there any decent actual trials to show a difference?

I'm not asking in a typical STW I don't agree therefore you are dim way, I'm genuinely interested to know if it works.

Ive got pretty badly bruised forearms from an over enthusiastic karate session at the weekend. Slapped arnica all over the bruises and I think its helped stop then going black, they are now just bit red.

Who knows if they would have been worse if I hadn't used it.

If placebo works (which it does) why dismiss it?

That's a bit of a philosphical question though isn't it as it

Western medicine can be so dogmatic that it will disregard something because it doesn't fit into a particular box, possibly missing that it may actually be helpful and the test is flawed.

As homeopathy was invented in Europe, doesn't that make it Western Medicine? "Western" medicine does not disregard things becuase they "don't fit into a particualr box". Anything that works gets incoporated and the stuff that doesn't work gets thrown away, simple as that. If standard pharmacuticals presented the sort of evidence that gets shown for "alternative" medicine, no drug would ever get approved.