Forum menu
When there’s questioning or criticism of those who choose not to wear one.
Also when there’s questioning or criticism of those who choose to wear one.
I’d offer that it’s not cut and dry or black and white (or red and blue) as with everything. Remembering wars and the fallen is of course inescapably political (and even Nationalistic) by nature to some degree. Even the poem which inspired the poppy being used as a symbol (‘In Flanders Fields’) is suitably ambiguous. Which ‘quarrel’ are the dead imploring us to continue?
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
But with a little thought surely the most important thing is to live and let live (and let remember)? The very moment that it becomes someone’s political platform (nationalistic or otherwise, over and above remembering the dead) is the time when I might turn away from such a person’s demonstrations.
Coming late to a long thread, and having skimmed the first page I can see it’s going/gone the way of most threads so stopped reading. However, I do agree with this:
When people overthink it.
It’s intended as a tribute to those who gave their lives in war, and to raise funds for the RBL who support former service personnel and their families.
That is all.
But not necessarily this:
Anyone who thinks it’s something more really doesn’t understand anything about it.
I’m sure plenty understand it but have formed their own opinions. I think it is important that we remember the sacrifices that all service personnel have made for the freedoms that we mostly take for granted. For all the criticism the yanks get (and often deserve) I think they do a very good job of Veterans Day and Memorial Day, as well as their general respect for those that have served.
Also when there’s questioning or criticism of those who choose to wear one.
Does that happen?
"Just like taking the knee, and pulling down statues of people by people (mostly white rich middle class people) who have no idea about who the statue is and why the statue was erected in the first place,"
What on earth are you talking about? I'd venture that everyone present at the Coulston toppling knew exactly who he was and what he had done.
I think you are tring to conflate taking the knee against racism with disrespecting those who died fighting fascism (racism).
You're not even wrong.
Does that happen?
Of course. An obvious example:
Irish nationalist groups, and victims' groups, have urged the BBC to end its policy that all presenters must wear poppies. They argue that it breaches impartiality and points out that political symbols are banned in workplaces in Northern Ireland. They also say that the BBC, as a publicly funded body, should broadly reflect the whole community.
have urged the BBC to end its policy that all presenters must wear poppies.
That’s the takeaway from that quote for me. Why on earth would it be a policy in the first place? Seems the BBC are guilty of the other side of the debate which lead to the complaint in the first place.
Of course. An obvious example:
Cracking example of people being told to wear one.
dissonance Full Member
What about when there’s questioning or criticism of those who do choose to wear one? Fair bit of that on here.
Where? Or are you mixing up the poppy wearing with the house decorating?
@dissonance I have zero clues what your decorating reference is about?
Pondo Full Member
What about when there’s questioning or criticism of those who do choose to wear one? Fair bit of that on here.
Does that happen?
From the OP:
it’s becoming an under the radar anti-European badge of honour and even a subtle dig at minorities
A few more from this thread
buying a poppy seems to be a token gesture
those keenest on using the poppy as a symbol of patriotic remembrance are often the ones most opposed to the notion of European cooperation
Too many people used it as an excuse to flag-shag the Union Jack
is just virtue signalling.
it isnt even just virtue signalling for them but cynical exploitation of those who read too many commando comics as a kid.
I'm sure there are more, I CBA trawling through any more.
As I said earlier on this thread, me and thousands like me have a very personal reason to remember. I wear a poppy to remember dead comrades and those are are alive but ****ed up physically and/or mentally. I also wear one to help the RBL raise a few quid. Nothing else. No patriotism, no pride, no nationalism, sweet FA to do with Brexit or any other kind of politics. I don't wear a poppy at any other time and I don't have them on my car, in my garden etc. Most poppy wearers don't. Yes there are a few idiots who go OT with daft displays but they are a tiny minority compared to the millions who just drop a quid in a tin for a paper poppy once a year and quietly show their respect/grief/gratitude or whatever personal meaning it has for them.
I've marched at the national act of remembrance a few times, always a sobering experience. In and around Whitehall during the parade and in the local pubs afterwards full of inspiring old boys, I have never seen a veteran criticise anyone else for not wearing a poppy and I sure as hell wouldn't do it myself. I genuinely don't judge, or care if you do or not. But I have been abused for wearing one, more than once.
Cracking example of people being told to wear one.
That too.
They argue that it breaches impartiality and points out that political symbols are banned in workplaces in Northern Ireland
I've never thought of the poppy as being a political symbol. Obviously some choose to make it so, and create a problem for themselves - though I accept nothing is quite that straight forward in Northern Ireland.
^
Yep.
a case was successful in Northern Ireland where a former police officer was refused entry into a Belfast bar for wearing a poppy. He was successful in the county court as they had formed the view that it was unlawful discrimination on the basis of his religious belief and political opinion. This was backed by the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland.
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/commentary-and-opinion/poppy-pitfalls-in-the-workplace/5068255.article
He since won a case for discrimination.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25104065
White poppy FTW. Giving money to a genuinely good cause, and if you piss off a few rancid jingoistic bigots at the same time, that's an added bonus.
I’ve never thought of the poppy as being a political symbol. Obviously some choose to make it so, and create a problem for themselves – though I accept nothing is quite that straight forward in Northern Ireland.
It’s a symbol of remembrance for the British military, how on earth is that not going to be a political symbol in Ireland?
As someone who served in a conflict and has lost relatives in previous conflicts I guess I 'deserve' a view on this....
If I had a choice of one of two general flavours for a day:-
"We remember those who died to protect our nation"
or
"We remember those who died in the horror and waste of war. Let us all do what we must to ensure it never happens again"
It would be the latter every single time, though I have a feeling the former is the version most people believe we are involved in every 11th Nov. It might not have been the intention but I think that is how a bulk of the population view it. Strip away any possible connection to flag-shagging (have your own nations day if that's your bag) and focus on the main issue - the waste, the misery, the loss and the fear of the vast majority of those involved.
"But what about their personal brave sacrifice for the freedoms we have today" element? Let's get down to brass tacks here - the vast majority of us that have gone off to conflicts over the centuries didn't do it fully genned up on the nuances of what we were going to be fighting for. We might have been sold the government (of whichever side you were lined up for) jingoistic line, or there was the excitement, or plain old fashioned you were told you were going and didn't have a choice. Most people who die in war are not thinking in their last moments about having done their bit for their country but are utterly confused and afraid, covered in blood and excrement. You were sacrificed but you didn't personally sacrifice in some brave heroic act despite what relatives back home need to tell themselves to make it less awful and to find a positive. So I'd personally forego that element for a change of emphasis.
11th Nov was I guess the most obvious date of choice back in the day but now I'm not so sure. It is unavoidably connected to one conflict - a historical conflict now along with many others (though arguably one of the most horrific in term of saraficing of fellow countrymen by a government). It would be easier to make the focus war in general if it was not on a date so utterly connected to a single conflict. Also it marks a day in history that we (UK) won. Like anyone really ever wins a war. Having it on a 'winning' date give more opportunity for a bit of flag waving, even if it's in the tone, not physically. Flag waving and contemplating war are very poor bedfellows.
So for me an anti war day that commemorates the human waste that war generates would be something I'd get behind more comfortably now. Something that looks forward as much as it looks back.
Most sensible post yet convert.
@convert - thank you for that. Lots of sensible reflection. I particularly like the idea of separation from 11th November and WW1.
Excellent post convert, thank you.
Excellent post convert, Remembrance should be separated from a "victory" as you say.
We’ll said and Very eloquently put Convert!
It can be a bit cringe
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1457046277900754948?t=pOI2ilNvYz5VKnSI2d7PUQ&s=19
You'd like to think that MPs annual twitter poppy fest isnt virtue signalling
But then they're the kind of people that just happen to have massive Union Jack on a flagpole or a dam busters picture in their home offices
With regards to @converts post, how do the antipodeans on here feel about ANZAC day?
It’s a symbol of remembrance for the British military, how on earth is that not going to be a political symbol in Ireland?
Since when is it a symbol of remembrance for the BRITISH military, when it’s always been a symbol of remembrance for all those killed in conflict, especially all of those from across the British Commonwealth. Even the Americans recognise Remembrance and the poppy as a symbol.
And don’t try to ignore the fact that people from both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic fought against the Axis powers.
I wear a poppy every year, as a mark of respect for those of every nation who fought and died, or suffered life-changing injuries, as a result of those conflicts. I will be putting a small wooden cross with a poppy on the family grave in a nearby village, to remember one member of my family who was killed in action in 1917, aged 20. Also for my dad, who carried the scars from his incarceration in Changi, the Japanese PoW camp in Singapore until he died aged only 45, when I was 13.
For everyone else who thinks it’s nauseating nationalism, well, as a result of those millions of dead, it’s free country, where you can think and say what you like.
It’s a symbol of remembrance for the British military, how on earth is that not going to be a political symbol in Ireland?
Ireland was officially neutral during the second World War but was of course still part of the UK during the first, a lot of Irishmen fought and died in that conflict, they should be remembered too
BRITISH military, when it’s always been a symbol of remembrance for all those killed in conflict, especially all of those from across the British Commonwealth.
Correct. Remembrance Day and Remembrance Sunday is (officially) for the British Commonwealth not just the British Army.
From the British Legion webpage:
Remembrance honours those who serve to defend our democratic freedoms and way of life.
We unite across faiths, cultures and backgrounds to remember the service and sacrifice of the Armed Forces community from Britain and the Commonwealth.Remembrance Sunday, which falls on 14 November in 2021, is a national opportunity to remember the service and sacrifice of all those that have defended our freedoms and protected our way of life.
We remember the Armed Forces, and their families, from Britain and the Commonwealth, the vital role played by the emergency services and those that have lost their lives as a result of conflict or terrorism.https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/remembrance/remembrance-events/remembrance-sunday
Plenty of other people/countries understandably add their own spin to it. Even colours, ie the white poppy (for non-violence) remains controversial.
Sorry Count Zero, I could be wrong but pretty sure the poppy is not a symbol that represents all those who fought and died, it represents 'our side' ergo the existence of the white poppy as a symbol that has no national connection.
"For everyone else who thinks it’s nauseating nationalism, well, as a result of those millions of dead, it’s free country, where you can think and say what you like."
Not sure anyone is accusing you of being a rabid nationalist but this to me reads like a nationalistic statement. A free country should never be beholden to the past.
I am reminded of one of the final scenes in The World at War documentary, where an old Wing Commander, stood in front of a Lancaster bomber said something along the lines of '"Of course there are those who served during the war who feel that society owes them something but they fail to realise that life moves on"
I wonder what that old Wing Commander would make of the way we remeber the wars today? I'm thinking that he, like many others who fought or died would be more than a little disturbed.
They're nearly all dead now so can't speak for themselves but there seems no shortage in the number of those willing to speak on their behalf, using their sacrifice to chastise others.
The red poppy isn't even a British creation....
https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/the-poppy-as-a-symbol-of-remembrance/
Since when is it a symbol of remembrance for the BRITISH military, when it’s always been a symbol of remembrance for all those killed in conflict, especially all of those from across the British Commonwealth. Even the Americans recognise Remembrance and the poppy as a symbol.
And don’t try to ignore the fact that people from both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic fought against the Axis powers.
Really?
As the RBL say (bit of a clue with the B bit to be honest)” We remember the Armed Forces, and their families, from Britain and the Commonwealth” so a symbol of remembrance for the British military.
I won’t try and ignore people from Ireland fighting in both world wars, as I’ve no idea what your actual point is with that as I never mentioned that, but whatever you say the poppy is inextricably linked to the British military.
In Flanders Field was written by a Canadian.
You'd be naive to think that the poppy is not in the process of being appropriated, but you have to keep hold of it if you want it kept.
I've always worn my poppy, and will continue to do so, and i will wear it for friend and foe.
My grandfather fought in Burma and came home - when i'm there on Remembrance Day i'm there for his comrades that didn't.
To answer the OP - when people let it.
The vast majority of people who buy poppies do so as an act of remembrance, they’re not nationalistic, they’re not being jingoistic, they’re just showing they care.
I’ve been a Sea Cadet, a Reservist and worked in military equipment supply. I also have/had family who served. I’ve seen first hand what the RBL has done to help them in later life (counselling, care, equipment, etc) when no one else would.
Some branches of the military are well cared for when they leave the services. They have good access to suppliers and can find work with them when they leave. Some don’t, especially those in the infantry who’re often those who return the most damaged/ most scarred by their experiences.
The RBL makes most of its money to help these people around now. I make my donation to help this. I wear a poppy not to commemorate war, not to be nationalistic, not to show I’ve paid my dues, but to hopefully remind others to donate to the RBL as a charity that helps service people when others don’t/won’t/can’t.
As for white poppies. Fine (mostly, but it does seem to be an organisation set up to keep itself alive with its own funding without really helping anyone else) but do it on another day. Don’t hijack what the RBL are doing, don’t take money away from helping veterans who often have nowhere else to turn.
What it should be about:
Personal remembrance.
Raising funds for veterans charities.
Those in the military coming together to remember lost comrades.
Not getting involved in any more wars.
What it shouldn't be about:
Large scale televised military parades.
Putting pressure on people to wear a poppy.
Calling it a festival.
Making it only about the military.
Focusing on 'victories' i.e. WWII.
Religion.
Obviously it's important to remember and I wouldn't want to stop that but the way it's done seems desperately outdated.
You’d be naive to think that the poppy is not in the process of being appropriated, but you have to keep hold of it if you want it kept.
Very well put. Like the flag of St George or Union Flag if you must.
Educate yourselves properly about what it was meant to represent, to counter the propaganda from the uneducated morons trying to hijack it and use it for their own purposes.
But buying, supporting and wearing are personal choice, and shouldn't be criticised either way.
I think the answer is when stuff like this is considered acceptable:
https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1357428135592132610?s=21
Hundreds of bikers riding round the m25 dressed in red "to make the largest poppy in the world" - totally the wrong tone in my book 🙁
https://www.therideofrespect.co.uk/ring-of-red-m25
When does Poppy Day tip into overpowering Nationalism?
Usually around this time of year 🙂
I agree with Spin
There's a football player who chose not to wear a poppy on his shirt, and gave his reasons.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46099843
In my opinion, the poppy should only be used to commemorate those forced to sacrifice their lives in WWs 1 and 2. Because they were conscripted, and did not volunteer to take arms against other humans. Since the end of conscription in 1963, UK armed forces are 100% volunteer staffed. My personal feeling is that I do not want to 'celebrate' armed conflict, and definitely not any of those the UK has been involved in during my lifetime, as I don't feel any of that involvement has been 100& morally justified. So it is sad that the poppy has been somewhat co-opted to include 'commemoration' of all armed service personnel since WW2.
I agree with Spin
Me too, Some folks seem to think it's ****in christmas.
What is really sad, is that the real reason for the poppy appeal, is to help provide support for those adversely affected by the trauma of war. Because we, as a society, don't provide that support as a given. Many ex-service personnel are reliant on charities for support, particularly those with mental health issues. What the RBL provide is woefully inadequate given the scale of the issue. When those who serve return home, they should be offered the support the need. This simply doesn't happen in far too many cases, and those with severe disabilities and mental health issues are just left to fend for themselves. Whenever I see a poppy these days, I'm just reminded of the failure of our society to provide all members with what they genuinely need.
I think Poppies and "Poppy Day" are still a dignified symbol of remembrance. Although, there is an increase in the glorification of war in the language used about our European neighbours.
the poppy should only be used to commemorate those forced to sacrifice their lives in WWs 1 and 2. Because they were conscripted, and did not volunteer to take arms against other humans.
Not all, my father volunteered. He was fanatically anti-fascist. As was usually the case with the apparently unworthy volunteers.
Mind you he wasn't British so I don't know if he counts. Does someone who was with the Free French forces in the RAF count?
Apart from the "conscripts only" I agree with @bridges, grandfather was at Gallipoli lucky enough to be a quartermaster so not on the front line but that didn't stop him from being properly messed up by it, which in turn messed up my dad's formative years.
What Convert said.
Remembrance is good. Remembrance should however be quiet, reflective and most of all personal.
I made a good start there and now I’m going to ruin it.
The RBL annoys me. Not because of who they are or what they do - that is probably very worthy and worthwhile (though focusing only on British and Commonwealth armed forces only seems wrong, they should also be helping former enemies where appropriate in a “better a strong friend than a weak enemy” sort of way - but let that slide).
No, it’s because they exist. Because every politician who decides to go to war, should realise the government should be paying for the peace. There should be no need for a charity.
And it is political ultimately, because politics starts (or stops if you get it right) wars so every injury, every death, every traumatised family is political.
And if you support remembrance and stopping it happening again, feel free to donate to RBL to patch up those who have already been broken, but also support the political structures put in place to try and stop it happening again.
Because saying isn’t war terrible and we mustn’t do this sort it thing again won’t achieve anything.
The news isn’t looking good. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/northern-ireland-bus-hijacked-and-set-on-fire-near-loyalist-estate-on-the-outskirts-of-belfast-12463733
I accept others will not see things the way I do.
Went to Tesco yesterday to grab a few bits. Poppy sellers on the way out. Virtually blocking the aisle past the end of the checkouts. Felt like it wasn’t an optional donation more of an obligation. Creates a bad impression. Like you are a bad person to ignore them.
I sometimes buy and wear a poppy, sometimes don’t. Have attended remembrance services at the local war memorial etc. This puts me off the whole thing though.
Worth pointing out that the UK had professional standing army twice the size of today just before WW2, supported by volunteer TA type units.
I think the answer is when stuff like this is considered acceptable:
Don't confuse "doing it" with it "being acceptable"
Anyway, bought my poppy yesterday, but will only wear it while marshalling the parade on Sunday.