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If a guy on 70k can't afford to pay his bills or feed his family, he's poor, regardless of the circumstances or life choices that got him into that situation
Absolute bollocks. Anyone on 70k who can't afford the bills and kids is a ****ing idiot who doesn't deserve to be paid that much.
Its partly money, partly attitude (and circumstance)
I don't have to check my bank balance before I buy something, even on the last week of the month.
For big purchases like bikes and cars, its a case of "carefully considering what amount do I think is a sensible and practical amount to spend on this item", and then I buy it.
However its obvious that my wants, my hobbies, and my general lifestyle has been moulded to fit the available funds.
Double my salary and there would be a number of obvious differences.
Give me a divorce and child support and interest rate rise and suddenly I'd be counting my pennies.
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Really though, all of us here, we all have (mostly) our health, we have time and money to play on our adult toys, and we've time to post on an internet forum on a friday afternoon. Thats pretty rich.
Maybe I was a bit harsh on my last comment. The point is, the person on 70k who's financially struggling can scale back. Someone on minimum wage is likely to be unable to scale back.
Absolute bollocks. Anyone on 70k who can't afford the bills and kids is a ****ing idiot who doesn't deserve to be paid that much
Not really
It's quite conceivable you could be struggling on 70k a year If you have to spend 2.5k on a mortgage every month, and feed a family of 6 with you being the only earner in the house.
Alternatively they could be an absolute idiot who's blown all his cash on coke and hookers and owes the local dealer thousands
Either way, they have no money = poor ( imo)
Speaking from personal exp, I feel poorer now than I did 15 years ago, despite earning about twice as much
If a guy on 70k can't afford to pay his bills or feed his family, he's poor, regardless of the circumstances or life choices that got him into that situation
Absolute bollocks. Anyone on 70k who can't afford the bills and kids is a ****ing idiot who doesn't deserve to be paid that much.
You haven't seen the costs of living in central London any time recently have you...
The likelihood is that on £70k a year in central London, they aren't likely to be able to afford any kind of mortgage (at least not for where they need to be for work) and so are renting, probably £2k+ per month down the drain even (more if they have a family to house!)... Even ignoring the fact that £20k of that £70k he is paying 40% tax on, where you spend your time can have a HUGE bearing on how much you need to earn to maintain a lifestyle of any kind... I live in a 4 bedroom detached house with a big double garage, double width driveway with enough room for 6 cars (yes really! It's handy for when the outlaws come to stay in their massive motorhome) and it was purchased last year for the sum of £445k... Can you even imagine how little £445k would get you if you had to live and work in central London? Can you imagine what a 4 bed house with a double garage (not gonna happen!) and big driveway would cost in central London...?
Yet take that same £445k and start looking in rural Scotland and I could have bought acres of land along with a bigger house than the one I live in now, breathtaking scenery and MTB riding from my door...
Everything is about perspective.
I've got more than one bike, and a canoe. I'm loaded... 😎
I'm rich enough that I am even really sure how much I earn, although as a bog standard teacher it's not much compared to many. I am not rich enough to think £7k on a road bike is a good idea unlike many I ride with. In summary..not sure.
Rich to me is having no debts of any significance and putting more than ten percent of ones income into savings each month.
Then using those savings for all purchases including vehicles.
You haven't seen the costs of living in central London any time recently have you
Absolutely ..70k a year leaves you about 4200 a month after tax, whxih on the face of it isn't an insignificant amount. But you are paying into your pension, so it's closer to 4k.
Straight away the average first time buyer in london woukd lose about 2.5k on their mortgage. Then you have council tax, Utilities, transport costs , house insurance..
All of a sudden you have less than a grand a month to pay for everything else for you, your wife and your kids.
Compare that to a guy on minimum wage living in his mums spare room...his take home is about 1700 quid a month...
Just don't live in Central London? would you want to spend eternity living with your mother?
You haven't seen the costs of living in central London any time recently have you...
Nope but just taken a look. Websites confirm £75k+ for family of 4 in Central London. Really though, central London is an exception rather than the rule. What prevents someone moving out of central London to a more affordable area and commuting? A family of six could live in outer London for half that (www.minimumincome.org.uk). £70k gives you choices. Minimum wage less so.
Rich = independent of the need to work to maintain lifestyle
Including retired folk?
I think most people considered to be rich are "merely" wealthy. I think a measure of where you are on the wealth, rich, uber rich spectrum should include assets as well as income.
While we're on it... because it's not obvious to me; and dictionary definitions at the top of search results don't allow for distinction; what is the difference between wealthy and rich?
In this day and age I would say anybody who is genuinely happy with what they have is far richer than someone with money constantly trying to keep up with the Jones's.
Just don't live in Central London? would you want to spend eternity living with your mother?
Exactly. The whole premise assumes you have to live in London or central London and you don’t. It’s a choice like most things in life that control how much disposable income you have at the end of the month.
In reality it is those who have wealth that generates sufficient income not to need to work who are the properly rich
Just don't live in Central London? would you want to spend eternity living with your mother?
My point was that you can still be 'poor' on 70k, or relatively 'rich', at least in terms of disposal cash, on minimum wage..it entirely depends on your circumstances
Either way, I don't think it's fair to say that someone on 70k who is struggling to pay the bills is by default an idiot, as was previously suggested
My point was that you can still be 'poor' on 70k, or relatively 'rich', at least in terms of disposal cash, on minimum wage..it entirely depends on your circumstances
Indeed - linking back to my earlier post, a homeowner on 70k who bought their house in 2001 for £100k is going to be far far richer than one who bought theirs last year for £400k.
Rich to me means you own a house outright, have a big pension pot, and still have enough spare income to live day to day without relying on loans or credit, and not dipping into savings to buy a new car or new washing machine etc.
A net worth over 2 million I guess would work in the north.
In London, you're probably looking at more like 5 million more depending on how extravagant you are.
Are you happy with a Honda jazz or does it need to be a Mercedes?
My point was that you can still be 'poor' on 70k, or relatively 'rich', at least in terms of disposal cash, on minimum wage..it entirely depends on your circumstances
Corner cases. For the majority of minimum wage workers, to go to £70k would be life changing. If you can't see that you need to open your eyes.
A net worth over 2 million I guess would work in the north.
In London, you're probably looking at more like 5 million more depending on how extravagant you are.
Not at all. People seem to have this strange view of what London looks like and the demographics, it’s a massive, diverse place and people with a net worth of over 2 million are rich.
London .... it’s a massive, diverse place and people with a net worth of over 2 million are rich.
I don't think so, when I say net worth I'm inculding having a house that you actually own, with no mortgage debt, plus savings and investments and pensions.... how any londerners do you know that are debt free?
I think that's the key phrase: "debt free".
Aside from taking on 'tactical debt' to play interest rates, if you're in debt you can't describe youself as 'rich'.
how any londerners do you know that are debt free?
A fair few actually.
I personally am in the 40% tax bracket, but I certainly don't feel rich, ie coukdnt afford a holiday this year, minimum savings etc. I live comfortably enough, I don't need to worry about paying bills or food, so I'm not poor either. But I don't have piles of spare cash to spend on frivolous stuff (ironically I use to, despite earning less as my circumstances were different)
Not a dig specifically at you OP as I don't know your circumstances.....
I meet people who complain scratch that - too strong a word....make the case for their comparative poverty despite a healthy income, but when you dig a little deeper it's often down to choices they have made that they didn't have to. Can't afford a holiday....because of the **** off massive mortgage they've got on a **** off massive house. Can't afford a holiday...because they felt it necessary to drop £38K on a kitchen. Or...this is mildly controversial....they earn a six figure salary and can't afford more than a bedsit because they decided to boff a work colleague and lost most of their wealth in a divorce and child support. What they really mean is they have plenty of cash but it's tied up in decisions to spend more than necessary they have already made and (unusually for them) have run out of ability to make more. What they've forgotten (or never experienced) is not being able to contemplaint making any of those decisions and money is just about having just enough to get by and their pleas for sympathy are a bit cringy.
Maybe one measurement of wealth could be the ability to make really shit decisions that would sink someone less well healed and still keep your head above water.
My point was that you can still be 'poor' on 70k
I reckon an awful lot of people, including myself, would like to give it a try. You know.,., just to see
In this day and age I would say anybody who is genuinely happy with what they have is far richer than someone with money constantly trying to keep up with the Jones's
Very much this.
My sister lives in central London, has a house worth far more than our entire street, has a household income the same as the GDP of Portugal but the hours she works and the stress levels she’s constantly under… **** that!
I'd be laughing all the way to the bank if I earned £70k per year... this isn't a debt problem, this is keeping up with the Jonses, living the life of someone who earns 4x that, or at least trying to, and wrecking yourself and your future in the process.
I'd be laughing all the way to the bank if I earned £70k per year... this isn't a debt problem, this is keeping up with the Jonses
Not really. It depends where you live, if you are single and if you have a student debt. If in London or easy commuting then that 70k is rather less impressive than if you live in blackpool and your partner is also working.
Its why there are the acronym HENRY and the term generation rent.
House prices are completely out of kilter with the economy and every government since Thatcher will protect the owners above all else regardless of how moronic decisions they have made.
My point is, if you need to take a loan or credit, you are not rich, you are paying the rich.
That's a different proposition to taking out a credit card for a 1% cashback or whatever.
That will never make you rich, it just makes it hurt less when you realise how shafted you are.
I can kind of see where the £70k thing is coming from, I earn a lot less but with wife we are around that figure. We have a small 3 bed terrace and drive a Dacia but we don't really have any other debts than a mortgage which is now quite small. We don't go on expensive holidays but If I wanted a new bike I could buy one tomorrow. Certainly my son doesnt have to worry about asking for new shoes or whatever like I did as a child so I am happy enough. However looking around at others...we are not well off.
It’s all relative
In the past I’ve been proper skint. Back then if I’d know how much income we have as a family I’d want told have said I would be rich. Now I’m m here I’d say I’m comfortable but not rich
I'd be laughing all the way to the bank if I earned £70k per year... this isn't a debt problem, this is keeping up with the Jonses
Nope it’s not I don’t know anyone like that. I think that’s an old fashioned aspiring lower middle class thing from the 80’s/90s in a Mrs Bucket kind of way
There was something on here called the £1 game or similar.
Basicaly the crux of it was up the value by adding a zero ( £10 , £100 , £1000 , £10,000 etc ) then answer who many '1' in timeline it would take to realise that amount or bow out gracefully.
As an example Q =£10. Answer = 1 min
Q= £1000. Answer = 1day .
Q = £100,000. Answer = 1 month.
I think if you get to the 1 million within 1 week then that to me - Rich
In this day and age I would say anybody who is genuinely happy with what they have is far richer than someone with money constantly trying to keep up with the Jones's
I'd say definitely this ^
That's me. Never chased 'stuff', not tried to climb the housing ladder for ever more grand properties, a 3 bed terraced house was fine by us. Our two kids are balanced individuals (IMO) who know the value of hard work and saving to buy something rather than adopting the "have it now, pay later" mentality (Hopefully they'll both bring their children up with similar values) We don't have wardrobes full of designer clothes/jewellery etc. Run one car but could afford two (pointless....one would always be parked doing nothing) So rich for me is not having the worry of paying for next weeks food shop as my parents did 50 years ago, being able to go out for the day and have a meal out rather than take tupperware sandwiches....
You haven't seen the costs of living in central London any time recently have you.
Other locations are available
If your daughter is a horse girl, she's rich and you are skint, lol!
Can live off assets and don't need to work.
Can live off assets and don't need to work.
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that's the trick, we all can.
There's no shortage of resources on our little planet.
rich is a state of mind.
Basicaly the crux of it was up the value by adding a zero ( £10 , £100 , £1000 , £10,000 etc ) then answer who many '1' in timeline it would take to realise that amount or bow out gracefully.
As an example Q =£10. Answer = 1 min
Q= £1000. Answer = 1day .
Q = £100,000. Answer = 1 month.
Does it need to be in the form of folding, or can it be deposited into the referee's bank account?
And more importantly, does it need to be done with or without spousal approval?
"Sorry honey, can you move the car. Someone's coming to view the house today"
Corner cases
Well obviously the vast majority of people on 70k aren't struggling to pay bills. Did I ever suggest otherwise?
For the majority of minimum wage workers, to go to £70k would be life changing. If you can't see that you need to open your eyes
again, did I suggest otherwise?
other locations are available
There are many reasons for being poor, one of them is bad lifestyle choices. I'm not suggesting a whip round for then, but they still fall within my definition of 'poor', regardless of how they got there
Ok, I'll bite. Our household income is ~130k* and we're skint and have been for the last 4-5 years.
*would've been 90k at the start of this period)
We've got a large mortgage and an extra bit of mortgage and 30k of unsecured debt.
We've not got into this position through largest and excess, foolhardiness or stupidity but because we've made some choices that were intended to provide a secure and sustainable financial future. I drive an 11 plate mondeo the wife has 59 plate tiguan and we went on our first foreign holiday since 2018.
We're renovating an old farmhouse and have built an annexe for use as a holiday let. This has taken a lot longer and cost a lot more than we planned (covid, material cost increases, unforeseen structural works, legal disputes over water rights etc) and we still have a way to go with our bit of the house.
But in 18 months time we'll be sorted. Even so we'll still have spent 6-7 years living hand to mouth. Was it worth it? If all had gone go plan we'd have laughing but as it stands its 50/50 as to whether the benefit well redeem will have been worth the cost.
Edge case I grant you but still very possible to have a big income and **** all in your back pocket without being an idiot.
OK, I'll bite back.
You are not skint. And if I was you(which I nearly am) I'd not describe myself as such.
Having no cash in your back pocket does not make you skint when you are asset rich. As per my post above you had the 'luxury' only open to the well heeled of making an arguably risky move that may or may not work.
As it happens our personal circumstances are not too dissimilar - living in a big building project which is part holiday let with lots to do to get it finished. Only difference is our household income is only just over half yours and as the money is coming in very slowly it'll be another 5-6 year minimum of living like this. Like you I suspect we have to make choices about day to day stuff and like you most money left at the end of the month goes into the next building project phase. Eating out would mean another month without windows. But I'd never dream of calling myself skint. I did this to myself. I did it because I 'wanted' to spend my money in this way. I had a choice then and I could walk away now (I'd make a loss, but could walk away). But I choose not to. So I'm not skint.
Sometimes it's easy to feel sorry for yourself - not saying you do thestabaliser, but you might - and it's important you have a reality check every now and then. I don't have much disposable cash these days, certainly not like we used to. And I 'could' get into a good sulk about it - especially when we've got friends of about the same age retiring early and seemingly (if you believe social media) having a right old time. My reference point 'could' be very skewed, like a lot of people leading a middle class life. Fortunately Mrs C's job working for a charity has her going into the homes and the lives of people who properly have **** all. It's equal parts hollows you out that society has people in these situations and reminds you of what you have. We wind our necks in regularly after her latest road trip.
Having no cash in your back pocket does not make you skint when you are asset rich
But that come back to my op, your definition of what is rich (or poor). If you base your definition on assets, ie owning a big house, then he's by no means poor
If your definition is 'needs to count every penny in order to scrape by' then he probably sits in the 'poor' category
As I say, all comes down to your definition. No right or wrong answer.
If your definition is 'needs to count every penny in order to scrape by' then he probably sits in the 'poor' category
For me choice plays a huge part in this judgment. There is significant chasm between having to count every penny to scrape by because you have no choice and this is the best it's going to be and having to count every penny because you have accounted for a huge number of other pennies voluntarily to do something else with and left yourself a marginal buffer. Counting every penny because you are on job seekers allowance and putting in a hundred applications a month and nothing is working and counting every penny because you've (over)commited most of your income to a building project are just not the same thing.
Perhaps there is a third category - the voluntarily poor.