Also, I kind of think we're all supposed to feel a bit like the op today.
The message changed overnight.
The media have been pushing the "fact" that we're opening up, schools are safe, we're coming through it.
Now we're not. They're pushing the "fact" that we'll be closing more, making sacrifices, enduring hardships.
BBC headline is:
"UK faces 50,000 cases a day by October without action"
We are being nudged in a different direction.
@poopscoop advice we had from drs and consultants at the start of this in March was, either both self isolate for at least a year, one of you move out, or one of you self isolate in one room, wash, sleep, eat there. Hense I moved out, luckily I was able to do this financially and had support from many locals to do so.
It's a fair point @Murray makes, as shit as the current situation is it's nothing like as bad as going through WW2 must have been. But for most of us we don't have that as a relative measure so it's not especially relevant to how many people are coping right now.
I'm fortunate in the sense I'm an introvert who had virtually no social life pre-pandemic so I'm not really missing that side of things. My job's pretty safe (I hope...) and I can WFH easily. That said if lockdown restrictions (rule of 6 etc.) last beyond Christmas (which it looks likely they will) it's still going to be pretty tough to deal with but I know I'm a whole lot better off than a lot of people.
I think there's also a lot of overly optimistic timeframes for this ending, I can see it being a year before there's an effective vaccine that's widely available (in the UK, god know how long for developing countries 🙁 ). And then what about SARS-CoV-2 mutating, how long will that first vaccine be effective? Hopefully as it seems to mutate less quickly than other similar viruses it's not going to end up like the seasonal flu jab with mutations meaning scientists having to make a best guess on the vaccine we need for it each year
TJ
Indeed – but by doing your bit you DO reduce risk even if only by a tiny amount. Not just the risk to you but more importantly the risk to others
I know that but it still seems pointless.
I spent months ... completely isolating. Any outdoors exercise was before other people got up and meticulously planned so as not to touch ANYTHING.... or be within 10m of anyone.
It’s about the crushing feeling that after so much shit for everyone, that we might have to do it all again
Well, its about not doing it properly the first time and having zero confidence or government will do anything until 2 weeks AFTER they needed to the 2nd time.
I want to go to the garden centre, pubs and the coaches and plead the people I'm isolating myself to protect to please go home.
My Dad's 73. He has some lung problem whose name I forget that's asbestos related so he gets out of breath moving around he has arthritis, and he's just finished radiotherapy for prostate cancer, which involved a fortnight of intense diarrhoea. He hasn't left the house since March, we've seen him a few times and he had to eat in another room whilst we all socialised.
I think you can deal with not going out to eat, can't you? By all means be grumpy about it (I know I have been) but count your blessings, and just get on with it.
The end goal, btw, is R < 1.
And that, combined with no clue as to where we’re trying to get to
I guess saying "we are just trying to slow the death rate so that hospitals dont overflow" is a hard sell politically!
There is no point, the fact that we exist is bonkers, mind blowing.
Modern capitalism life has brainwashed us into living in the future, the problem with this is when the sh1t hits the fan we fall apart.
monkeyboyjc
Full Member
@poopscoop advice we had from drs and consultants at the start of this in March was, either both self isolate for at least a year, one of you move out, or one of you self isolate in one room, wash, sleep, eat there. Hense I moved out, luckily I was able to do this financially and had support from many locals to do so.
I can imagine that, that was a day and conversion you will never forget my friend. Absolutely no "good" choice amongst those.
Guys – it really does not matter if the OPs fears and anguish feel unreasonable to you – its still real to him
This.
There's also a lot wisdom in the glass half full stuff as well. If you're already dreading something youre prone to the effects of the negative framing. So your experience will be shitter than it needs to be just because of the frame youre applying. It takes a huge effort to reframe stuff but it can help.
That’s the kind of hyperbole/false dichotomy that made all the various lockdown threads so unpleasant the first time round.
Mostly aimed at people blatantly and wontonly exhibiting "I'm ok jack government can't tell me what to do I've deemed it safe so up yours"
So while on the subject of telling others how to act if you wouldn't mind that this time round please or at least keep your plans to do what ever you feel like to your self it would be appreciated. Make those who are doing Thier part feel less shit about not doing the stuff they want when others feel it's above them to not toe the line.
Mostly aimed at people blatantly and wontonly exhibiting “I’m ok jack government can’t tell me what to do I’ve deemed it safe so up yours”
Members of the jury, I rest my case.
I can imagine that, that was a day and conversion you will never forget my friend. Absolutely no “good” choice amongst those.
One of the TA's at OH's school had to send her 9yr old daughter away to live with her aunt and uncle who are of a different culture.
sounds like it could be time to find religion or to investigate your spiritual side.
Members of the jury, I rest my case.
Merely pointing out that those in glass houses should not throw stones.
Covid will be around for 100 years said a scientist on the radio today.
Just as I’m reading this thread there’s a report on the news that dementia research is at risk because of coronavirus. Reading through these threads it seems that’s a sacrifice that a lot of people are willing to make in order that Covid is beaten?
I’ve seen similar reports about mental health, cancer, heart problems etc, over the last few months. How much of this are we willing to forego while we stay locked down?
I don’t know anyone who died of Covid. I did, however, have a friend who died of cancer during lockdown. Would he have survived with a fully functioning cancer treatment? Who knows. I did, however, work with someone for a brief period who walked out of work one day. I saw him stumbling past my house last week and mentioned it to my colleagues. Turns out that he’s always had a problem with anxiety and alcohol, and lockdown was the last straw. He’s now not capable of working because of his alcoholism. Is it fair to sacrifice people like him while we all stay safe?
Are we all happy to accept the increase in suicides and domestic violence?
Being locked down doesn’t just mean that we are missing the pub, our friends and family and can’t go on holiday. There are significant problems happening within society because of it.
Covid will be around for 100 years said a scientist on the radio today.
In that case these so-called scientists should have called it Covid-2019. Just imagine the confusion this is going to cause at the start of the next century! Bloody experts, wasn’t like this in my day, etc. etc. etc.
RM.
while we stay locked down?
We havent been locked down for ages, if really ever
Merely pointing out that those in glass houses should not throw stones.
I don't understand that comment. I've never entered into that kind of hyperbolic/demonisation of other's decisions argument, are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?. My line throughout this crisis has been that people making different choices or holding different views doesn't automatically make them entitled arseholes as some on here would have you believe.
I went to work in February thinking I would be home six weeks later, I got home last week. In that time I have been on site working, being thankful for having a good job but missing the family. I got home 5 days ago and got to give the kids a big hug. Focus on the positives no matter how small they are and try not to dwell on the negatives.
I am 57 and i think my generation and the following ones have taken this quite badly, we are conditioned to having a reasonably safe,secure life with freedom of movement.
Previous Generations did not experience this and we sometimes forget there was only 21 years between 2 world wars and the spanish flu and the great depression. Added to that serious rationing until the 1950s.
My generation was probably the last to see mass unemployment and the destruction of various communities so we have a little of that in us.
Also death is not common place as it was in the first half of the century and we expect to live to a good old age.
So getting pissed off about not being able to do all the things you want to do is understandable. However this thing kills old people and ruins young peoples health.
So we have to dig in and it is sure as shit not WW2 levels of destruction ,(yet)
Oh and if we need any metric of the "price point" to risk infection it was £2 for a Mcdonalds snd £10 off at yhe local gastro pub.
I do despair at the average human being..
I wonder how many people will die due to Rishis meal deal?
Just as I’m reading this thread there’s a report on the news that dementia research is at risk because of coronavirus. Reading through these threads it seems that’s a sacrifice that a lot of people are willing to make in order that Covid is beaten?
This logical fallacy again. Let this virus let rip, and it will effect ______* far more than measures to control the virus will.
[ * in this case it’s dementia research, but there are hundreds of other important medical considerations this applies to ]
The original post demonstrated that the OP, like many, struggles with uncertainty. There's always some uncertainty in our lives but the various lockdown measures have also introduced uncertainty into our relationships between our nearest and dearest and that's very unsettling for many. We are social animals, it's defined our development as a species and shaped, in good ways and bad, how our history has unfolded.
Some need those interactions to thrive, others like myself, not so much. I might feel differently if I'd spent March and April cooped up in an inner-city flat or even a house in some large town.
It's not helped that the government message(s) and measures have been so haphazard and inconsistent so even the new social rules are prone to uncertainty. Basically you've no solid bedrock from which to build anything.
Idlejohn
There are no good answers only the least worst ones.
No covid controls means huge deaths from it and clogged NHS leading to those types of deaths because of no cancer treatment etc. Tight covid controls and we massively reduce covid deaths but as you point out increase others and all sorts of other issues
Try to find a middle road and it all drags on longer
All we can do is hope are politicians listen to the science and make good judgements about what path reduces the impact
I agree with OPs sentiment.
It's something my mum, who's in her 80s, mentioned recently. She's still really active but obviously knows that her time is limited. Having to cancel all of her activities and spend months sat on her own in a large empty house has done nothing for her mental or physical health.
What needs to happen, but is impossible within the UK, is a public conversation that weighs up the relative risks and benefits of various strategies. That should look at health and mortality but also the social and psychological impact of becoming a society in which everyone is perceived as a potential danger.
I’m sorry if I’m being repetitive but I haven’t read all the posts. I went through this last week, my two outcomes were “shit happens” and “the goalposts have moved”.
We have a family, health, can ride a bike, and have a beer and a pizza at the weekend. One day this’ll all be of lower proportions and we can start to do other things. Until then let’s just do our best to protect each other and enjoy the smaller world we move in.
I’m shortly going to read “Everything is ****ed, a book about hope “ by Mark Manson, based on nothing more than my prior experience of the guy and the preface, which essentially states that just because everything around you feels hopeless, doesn’t mean you have to - i suspect that’s an aka of how you think is how you feel turned to modern psychology.
Copa
Sturgeons presses have tried to outline the pros and cons of the measures and explain the reasoning
I'm in a similar position Lunge (and others). If it's getting you down, that's nothing to be ashamed of and it's good for you to talk to others about it.
I've revived an old hobby which has helped, but not having anything to look forward to is getting to me a little. I am very aware how lucky I am compared to others though, and talking to MsBeej about what she is exposed to at the surgery where she works (clinical pharmacist) helps ground me.
Keep talking about how you feel, and you can do daily Giro threads for us in a few weeks.
Is it fair to sacrifice people like him while we all stay safe?
Are we all happy to accept the increase in suicides and domestic violence?
I take your point but blaming lockdown for this is the wrong target. The lack of social support for people in need is a much longer term problem and it's caused by Tory politics.
Firstly.... it's OK to not be OK. Acknowledging it is half the battle. Recognising the good things that are available to you and using them is the other half.
I'm feeling down at the moment too. I've been unemployed for over a year now. I have to live with my incredibly vulnerable father because the council don't believe my doctor who says I can't manage my bi-polar whilst I live here. As much as I love my dad the doc is right. I am lucky if I get to see my daughter for a few hours twice a week without having my own place. The only time all of that goes away is when I get on my bike or see my girl.
Make the most of what you can do and forget the things you can't. For the time being we all have a responsibility to protect each other however we can.
I think those that are saying it's going to be better or over in 6 months we just need to wait it out are a little naive, the virus is never going away, even with a vaccine. It'll just get less effective at killing the less vulnerable which isn't going to happen in the near future, and if you have underlying issues you'll always be at risk. Exactly the same as the flu virus.
Sorry but it's here to stay as are restrictions for the foreseeable.
The thing about anxiety/depression is that those that suffer from it 'lose perspective' to a large extent. So just saying to oneself "I really am selfish/crap being like this, there are millions worse off than me" (or having someone say it to you) doesn't help. It just adds to the self-loathing.
I hope that the people who have had a pop at the OP genuinely feel better as a result. At least, by diminishing someone else's happiness, they will have evened up the net happiness in the world. But scoring points off of someone who is down in the dumps does not do that, even if the person having a go is more entitled on the face of it. Kicking someone who is already on the ground doesn't do anyone any good.
I feel similar to the OP. I have suffered little tangible damage so far, although with two kids in school and my wife patient-facing NHS it is probably only a matter of time for us. However, I have been getting a bit down about it all. Not getting away on holiday with the kids, riding trips cancelled, kept job but endured a pay cut and am now working >25% longer hours in a job I hate.....
First world problems? Definitely. But realising it doesn't actually help.
At least you didn’t buy Rolls Royce stock a few weeks back 😂
In all seriousness, try and stay strong mentally. The mental damage is just as serious as the physical damage and doesn’t get much thought from press / gov.
Prob worth throwing a few ideas round if people have them.
I’ve been:
Playing stock market: Bad idea unless you invested in Zoom 6 months ago. See my 1st point.
Trying to ride: awesome / no sh*t but I wonder how many are riding less for no good reason? Trying to find a power meter within budget so I have something to focus on as things get worse. If I can come out of this winter fit enough for enduro I’ll be happy.
Fiddling with cheap vintage and latest tech in hifi: frustrating to fantastic.
Trying to replicate Michelin star dishes at home. Good fun - lots of cost at restaurants is in work rather than ingredients so it’s very accessible. Try starting with Tom Kerridge Michelin star chips vid on YouTube to start for under a £1.
Reading this and a few other posts I’m going to try to stay sane:
Airfix
Maybe revive a mini rc
Looking at everyone I know the old seem to be taking it in their stride. The young and middle aged seem to be going mad worrying about the old who just want the young to calm down. Not sure what my point is but maybe there is something to be learnt from them somewhere.
If I offended the op or yourself dannyh with my earlier comments I apologize. I'm generally quite blunt when I speak to customers in my shop about covid and the internet tends to have a way of making blunt speak even blunter.
The OP may have just been venting frustration but he raises a reasonable point. If in January you everyone was asked if they would give up social contact with family and friends, security of employment, easy access to non emergency medical care, holidays and the rest of it for a few months extra life expectancy* how many people would have thought it would be worth it? It feels like, out of fear for doing badly by others, we have taken a course that is worse for everyone.
Of course it is scary, I have elderly parents who have chosen to take a trip round Spain despite the uptick in infections there. I might lose them, but I recognise that it would be selfish to guilt them into sheltering at home to humour my anxiety. They probably only have a few years left when they are strong enough to enjoy themselves so if they try and hide corona out there is a fair chance they will never be able to have such an experience again. If they go on holiday there is a >95% chance that they have a great time and come back healthy enough for me to continue to enjoy their company.
The risks of getting long term effects are also scary, but are relatively uncommon given the number of people who have been infected. It seems not hugely different to the CFS associated with Lyme, but we still all go mountain biking.
* The chance of dying if infected goes up with age, but so does the number of years you can expect to live without coronavirus. The young have little risk because the chance of adverse effects is so low, and a 90 year old has little to lose because they don’t have much chance of living out the pandemic even if they don’t catch it.
I don't know about where the op lives, but round my way there isn't an awful lot you aren't allowed to do. I can go to the pub if I want, cycling club is up and running, I can even go on holiday if I want. I choose not to do many things because I'm wary of catching a virus that may severely damage my health, but that's my choice.
Ultimately life may not be great right now, but a sense of perspective is sometimes required. You may have it a bit shit, but I'm willing to wager you still have it better than 95% of the population of planet earth..
If I offended the op or yourself dannyh with my earlier comments I apologize. I’m generally quite blunt when I speak to customers in my shop about covid and the internet tends to have a way of making blunt speak even blunter.
Not a problem. Having your own business throughout this must be stressful. Try to stay positive - just not in a covid test kind of way*.
😉
*Attempt at humour.
Ultimately life may not be great right now, but a sense of perspective is sometimes required. You may have it a bit shit, but I’m willing to wager you still have it better than 95% of the population of planet earth..
Totally agree, but pointing this out to someone who might be struggling with anxiety/depression (even if you don't consider it 'warranted') doesn't help.
+1 dannyh, a sense of perspective can be the first thing to go when the mental health is struggling. We all need to appreciate that people will struggle throughout this - and just try to be a bit more pleasant to each other.
I hear you OP, it's pretty shit at the moment relative to the freedom we take for granted. Apart from my Daughter, my Dad and my Stepmum, all my other relatives live in Australia, so I've seen them on average once every couple of years since 2000. At times, this is crushingly painful, I love my family and miss them all like crazy. But you know what, those visits roll back round in the calendar and they are ****ING AMAZING when they happen, because we're all so happy.
I guess what I'm saying is this too shall pass, and the people and places you miss will be appreciated that little bit more when you are able to see them again.
Having your own business throughout this must be stressful.
During lock down it was - moved out of home and managing the shop solo, ± it was trading at 3x normal. Financially it's relatively firm. But I've also lost one other buisness (rural taxi) which I honestly can't see recovering (may have to start a thread on that, see of an taxi drivers are about).
I think the thread shows that whatever way we are coming at this, people are just trying to get through it as best they can. The methods and priorities are different as you would expect but that's because we *are* all different.
For my part, I don't expect or want the country to go into lock down for "us". I know the consequences of lockdown will affect my son at some point too and to minimise the agonies of Covid, the nation and many individuals will experience other tragedies instead.
The small stuff helps I find, both practically and emotionally to be honest.
For instance, being able to nip into the coop occasionally knowing people will be wearing a mask and doing their best to keep a bit of distance from me means a huge amount, it really does. It's when that isn't the case I just find that day a little bit harder than it needs to be.
I really feel that I should be more alarmed, but I'm not.
None of this is meant to diminish the experiences of others in harder hit regions and with more personal experience of this virus.
I am a key worker, so I've thankfully worked throughout this entire period and to be honest, not much has changed for most people I know.
The overwhelming majority of people I am in contact with are not affected beyond wearing masks and sanitising everything more than normal.
I keep an eye on the local and global statistics and a lot of this really doesn't make any sense to me, especially considering Sweden and Brazil.
The UK's official covid death rate is 6/100ths of 1 percent.
That is 0.062% (Johns Hopkins)
We have a less than 1 in 19 million chance of dying from it (50 to 64) and over 80 % of those infected won't know they've got it.
Sunlight and vitamin D3 can provide a 70% protection against this and other respiratory illnesses (BMJ), so locked indoors does not help.
No evidence of outdoor transmission (WHO)
Neil Fergussons model was once again dangerously useless.
The media have done their usual job of massively increasing the damage caused by this virus.
Rant over.
Harry - look to the US 200 000 dead so far and the virus has still not gone right round the country. If that was the UK it would be 50 000 dead so far. so the measures taken have saved many many lives
We have a less than 1 in 19 million chance of dying from it (50 to 64)
Over what time period? That stat is just word salad without a period.
Sunlight and vitamin D3 can provide a 70% protection against this and other respiratory illnesses
70% of what?
The media have done their usual job of massively increasing the damage caused by this virus.
What kind of damage? Increase in what way? How have the media caused this? In what way is this ‘usual’? What media are you blaming for what exactly?
