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In france and germany manyretire at 55 with a really good pension , the uk is the lowest pension payer bar none in whole of europe , the worlds fifth richest nation makes sure most have a hard and unrewarding life , there may be 20% who don’t , many will be on here , i’m sure that being told you must work till 67 before entitled to a state pension , which frankly
is just above benefit level would be a shock to many who have no concept of how wretched much employment in this country is .
The labour shortages, or primarily, the cheap labour shortages, is a good thing for sure.
It will give workers opportunities to try other industries, and hopefully see a nice raise in wages for them too.
Those on lower wages have experienced the impact cheap foreign labour has had; unless you live in the less desirable areas, then its something you won`t experience, so can only speak from the opinions you have gained from reading the Guardian or some other source with no actual substance.
Every cloud has its silver lining. Covid showed society the junk jobs .. those furloughed or industries hit hard by the pandemic can be pretty sure they were/are doing junk jobs.
In an ideal world the IT, banking and other junk job sectors would be deemed as only being worth minimum wage, and the front line NHS and social care staff would be the big earners in society.
My current agency and the one before both treat me as an employee. I accrue holiday pay for every week I work and this second one really do put in the effort to find the job to suit the person the best. I know it’s very rare but they are out there!
different industries have very different practices , in building the umbrella company will deduct 45% of your wages , you are employed and an employer , so you pay two lots of NI , a fee to get your money ( usually £20 a week) all in all a terrible state of affairs, ive seen some pimps offering £10 hr for a labourer on such terms , be lucky to see £6 per hour ......there are tens of thousands of these pimps in construction alone , they are totally unnecessary, our argument is that the employer can pay us the money they pay the pimps , often 15- 20% of rate .....all designed to keep you down
In an ideal world the IT, banking and other junk job sectors would be deemed as only being worth minimum wage
Sorry, what? IT is a junk job?
With these supermarket shortages you'd hope the supply chain would priorities necessities such as fresh fruit and veg or staples rather than luxuries such as soft drinks, candy etc but I doubt that.
those furloughed or industries hit hard by the pandemic can be pretty sure they were/are doing junk jobs.
I agree that COVID has shone a light on some junk jobs but you're being a bit cavalier there. For one thing: we need cafes and dentists and theatres!
unulales
Free Memberthose furloughed or industries hit hard by the pandemic can be pretty sure they were/are doing junk jobs.
Absolute nonsense. Every industry based on mass gatherings got pretty much closed down, you're pretty sure that everyone affected is doing a "junk job" are you? FFS
If you hear a … company berating a lack of drivers then they need to be told that they will need to improve their offer to the drivers
This. For ‘drivers’, substitute ‘workers with a particular skill set’. Many companies seem to believe the market doesn’t apply to them when it comes to what they offer potential employees, or even their current ones. ‘We can’t get enough engineers/data scientists/shelf stackers’ can indicate lack of insight and awareness in management of how attractive their jobs and contracts are.
I spent a few years as a onsite telecoms architect spending a couple days each week onsite at the HQ and IT dept for one of the big supermarkets. The levels of inefficiency and ****wittery I saw throughout the business were a real eye opener. They were all propped up by one dept that operated with a ruthless streak, yep for any suppliers out there, you have already guessed who, the buyers who would gouge year on year cheaper and cheaper costs for the goods going on the shelves. In fact I can recall quite a public rant from STW towers on some of the tricks they try.
Outsourcing key components in their JIT supply chain to 3rd parties, then tightening the screws was the next step to retaining their bonuses, after the easy wins got harder to achieve from their regular punch bags of years gone by.
No doubt it'll be price rises due to increased labour costs next, rather than looking at how better to optimise their internal structure, or heaven forbid eating into their profits and senior leadership team bonus scheme.
But JIT is about cost cutting ultimately.
And choice. And freshness.
With these supermarket shortages you’d hope the supply chain would priorities necessities such as fresh fruit and veg or staples rather than luxuries such as soft drinks, candy etc but I doubt that.
Guess which of those can be delayed and/or stored for long periods of time so can easily still be on the shelves in saleable quality, even while the timely nature of logistics crumbles as the reality of our political stupidity hits it hard?
IT is a junk job?
It is for people desperate to take us back to the 1970s, yes.
They were all propped up by one dept that operated with a ruthless streak, yep for any suppliers out there, you have already guessed who, the buyers who would gouge year on year cheaper and cheaper costs for the goods going on the shelves. In fact I can recall quite a public rant from STW towers on some of the tricks they try.
Yep
Apparently the big car companies are similar as well
Outsourcing key components in their JIT supply chain to 3rd parties, then tightening the screws was the next step to retaining their bonuses, after the easy wins got harder to achieve from their regular punch bags of years gone by.
This is the way of capitalism though, no? Companies/industries are viewed as investment vehicles only. All the investors care about are their returns - not about the long term health of the company - or wider industry - or even wider: the role of that company/industry within society.
I used to work for a pharma company who prided itself on investing a high (relative to other companies in my industry) percentage of profits back into R&D, with the rationale that this investment would strengthen its pipeline, and therefore the protect the medium/long term health of the company. Seems logical, right? Even sensible.
Well, that high percentage of re-investment was the basis for a hostile takeover. A FAR less successful company argued to shareholders that this money invested back into R&D was better handed out to them as increased profits. The only way that shareholders could be convinced not to support the hostile takeover, was for the current leadership of the current company to make an equivalent cut in R&D investment. Swathes of people were laid off.
Don't know where I'm going with this TBH..... Maybe just that this race-to-the-bottom is a "feature" of capitalism that needs to be suitably regulated/controlled by government, in order for capitalism to be fundamentally compatible with running a country. If you just let capitalism run unchecked (as they tend to do in the US) you get things like the enormous power outage in Texas, and swathes of people without access to basic healthcare.
Isn't IT easily and cheaply offshored though? one small office in the UK, and a huge building in Mumbai.
why pay UK wages for UK productivity if you dont have to.
Isn’t IT easily and cheaply offshored though? one small office in the UK, and a huge building in Mumbai.
why pay UK wages for UK productivity if you don't have to.
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
All the investors care about are their returns – not about the long term health of the company – or wider industry – or even wider: the role of that company/industry within society.
Offshoring absolutely everything that you possibly can - squeezing absolutely every aspect of every business until the pips squeak, all in the pursuit of investor returns - is fundamentally incompatible with running a country, at least one that I'd like to live in.
The big IT off-shoring thing didn't always work that well. Turns out that the job is mostly about communication and planning. The actual coding is quite a small part of it.
Whatever the wages, training required etc,. it is still simple maths. If you have 10 million jobs you need 10 million people.
If 3 million of those were migrant workers who are no longer in the pool and won’t be again because “we” don’t want migrants in the country then it doesn’t matter what the wages are.
Breed For Britain 🙂
Shock horror, reversing out of a trade block you’ve been in 40 years needs more than 40 mins preparation to not cause problems.
The problems were foreseen but your government think they’ve done their bit the rest is for the ‘market’ to sort out.
Remember you need fk all qualifications/training to be an MP.
Just an allegiance to the cause.
The big IT off-shoring thing didn’t always work that well. Turns out that the job is mostly about communication and planning. The actual coding is quite a small part of it.
It didn’t but if you haven’t got the talent and it’s hard work to bring in staff that’s exactly what you’ll force.
You need staff now not in 10 years time.
IT, cafes, and most definitely theatres are junk jobs. If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
The slur about taking us back to the 1970's: Lots of things in the 1970's were bad, and lots in the years following have been at least as bad too, and leading to things even worse.
Is society getting better? Is the childhood of our children's a better environment than the one of the 1970's? .. will our children have a future as opportunistic as we did?
The junk jobs are a symptom of society losing understanding of what's important.
In france and germany manyretire at 55
Nope. Like most places the retirement requires are evolving requiring longer service. The official French retirement age used to be 60 and is now 62, and about to rise. You also have to validate the required number of trimestres. A tiny number retire before 60.
So what do you think are not junk jobs?
While you can argue what a junk job is, and I have my own opinion, the combination of Brexit and COVID has vertainly revealed how fragile the UK economy is, and it's reliance on hospitality, fairly fluffy services and retail for large amounts of jobs are not good things
The junk jobs are a symptom of society losing understanding of what’s important.
What a load of absolute garbage. There's no such thing as a junk job, if someone is prepared to pay someone else to do something it's a legitimate contribution to society.
If all employment was based on supporting basic needs there wouldn't be many people employed.
Just because a job is not particularly fulfilling doesn't make it a junk job, shelf stacking, lorry driving, shop assistant all support our society. As for your claim theatres are junk jobs you really are having a laugh, one sector that really has to earn it's money, if the performance they provide isn't good enough they don't get paid.
Whenever we have a discussion about jobs I always see misinformstion about agencies and umbrella companies, so will help clear this up.
Umbrealla is not self employed, its PAYE.
Umbrella cannot roll up rates, that is against the conduct regulations. Holiday pay is accrued for exactly that, to pay when on holiday (the client wont pay the agency when the worker is off)
The things an umbrella company take off the headline rate are the same things an employer has to pay, you just dont see the employers Ni and cost of holiday pay, these are some of the reasons it cost approximately 1.5 times the salary to employ someone.
Thier fee is to process your tax. No agency should be forcing someone down umbrella as again this is against regulations, if offered a job umbrella ask to be straight PAYE. The rate will be lower as Umbrella is a gross rate (like ltd company).
Umbrella companies used to be able to offset tax against expenses and it was worth it, change in legislation means this is no longer the case. They still have a use as can provide insurances and look like continuous employment for things like mortgage applications.
Agencies use umbrella rates to advertise as they look higher/workers think its higher. Its not, the paye rate is what should be the barometer. Always ask what this is (£10 umbrella is very close to being under min wage....)
Example
Sir David McAlpinedescent are a (fictional) main contractor.
They win a contract to build a school. To do this they need 500 employees, most of which they dont have.
They hire some perm staff but need agency labour as schedules vary week to week and they need the flexibility. It costs more but they know its more beneficial in the long run.
They bid for another school contract which would start at the end of this one they are building, but the job is won by Balfour Warren Beatty who in need of work to sustain thier perm workforce, bid the job at cost.
Sir David need to downman about 400 people. Most are agency so its a week notice and no redundancy costs.
Balfour Warren Beatty then take on most of these workers as they have good experience building schools.
The cycle repeats.
With these supermarket shortages you’d hope the supply chain would priorities necessities such as fresh fruit and veg or staples rather than luxuries such as soft drinks, candy etc but I doubt that.
Really don’t understand where supermarkets make their money - my local supermarket shelves are bare with the exception of frozen pizzas, ice cream, high-sugar cereals, fizzy drinks and booze. Fruit, veg and fresh produce are mainly empty. If the supermarkets were genuinely interested in the health of the nation they’d reduce the number of high-sugar cereals and hydrogenated fat products on their shelves to create space for the stuff in demand.
The reality that UK supermarkets are one of the biggest beneficiaries of in-work benefits and more profitable as a consequence is of no coincidence.
If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
This nonsense again. Just because work had to be delayed/suspended for a short period during a public health emergency does not mean it is not crucial. Ask someone who had their cancer treatment plan delayed due to Covid.
Fruit, veg and fresh produce are mainly empty.
Expect more of this. It’s what we voted for after all.
British bananas for British people!
Is society getting better? Is the childhood of our children’s a better environment than the one of the 1970’s?
Yes! Yes! Kids in the 1970s spent their time getting locked in fridges on waste ground and getting disfigured by fireworks. I know it's true, I've seen the documentary films.
What a load of absolute garbage. There’s no such thing as a junk job, if someone is prepared to pay someone else to do something it’s a legitimate contribution to society.
I think there are junk jobs (and so it seems do jobseekers who aren't applying for them post-COVID), but that's a reflection on the employer, not the person working in it! There's no reason why any job should be poorly paid, insecure or unduly stressful, even if it is repetitive or whatever.
FWIW, IT (which is a pretty broad sector) can be viewed as a junk job, or can be viewed as infrastructure which is pretty important. A hospital booking or patient records system, rail traffic control, electricity grid control etc. It's not all tech bros working at Facebook while playing ping-pong.
I work in IT and I would say my particular job is useful to the company (reducing security risk of a data breach of sensitive info as well as improving process efficiency), but noone is going to die if I stop going to work.
The junk jobs are a symptom of society losing understanding of what’s important.
So nothing connected with computers,no theatres no cafe….
“Blessed be the fruit.”
Handmaidens Tale U.K. version anyone 🙂
No jobs junk just because you can’t see the value in it doesn’t mean it has no value.
IT, cafes, and most definitely theatres are junk jobs. If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
The modern world is built on IT infrastructure and essential to life we know it. If it were removed we'd cease to function. It'd be little different to removing our road networks. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean the world is not completely dependent on it.
You can argue that life was better before IT, or could be better if we transitioned to a world without it, and you may or may not be right, but as it stands right now it's the underlying infrastructure of almost everything we do.
Yeeeeees - under the rule of "don't say something on the internet that would wouldn't say to somebody in person" I think that perhaps you want to revise your tone re: "junk" jobs. Maybe stick with the already established and understood "non-essential" to avoid sounding like a bit of a dick.
All paid jobs are, by definition, valuable to society - in that they provide somebody with paid employment to feed their family, pay taxes etc.
*some people here don't understand what a junk job is.
It's very often not the poorly paid unskilled jobs ..
IT........are junk jobs. If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
Pretty sure IT was fairly crucial in the whole WFH thing that kept many areas of the economy functioning, enabled all the government support packages to be implemented, have coordinated the vaccination programme.....
*some people here don’t understand what a junk job is.
that's perhaps because it's not a real thing?
Some peoples view on what is/isn't a "junk" job seems to be based on their own limited understanding of how society works. Suggesting that "IT" jobs are "junk" is derisible.
Find out how essential IT workers are when the banking system falls over, and nobody can fix it.
But JIT is about cost cutting ultimately.
And choice. And freshness.
Everytime I go to a supermarket elsewhere in Europe I'm generally surprised at the lack of choice for fruit and veg. The UK has an incredibly efficient retail sector with an amazing choice which barely changes all year round. Want fresh strawberris on Boxing day, no problem every Tesco, Sainsbury, Coop etc will have them; you won't find any in France or Portugal.
*some people here don’t understand what a junk job is.
It appears to be jobs they don't like!
The modern world is built on IT infrastructure and essential to life we know it. If it were removed we’d cease to function. It’d be little different to removing our road networks. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean the world is not completely dependent on it.
+1
Quite possibly the biggest self own of ignorance on STW for a while!
some people here don’t understand what a junk job is.
Watch and learn 🙂
Quite possibly the biggest self own of ignorance on STW for a while!
Hold my pint......
Really don’t understand where supermarkets make their money
because of the hugely deregulated and 24/365 nature of the finance industry..
Companies/industries are viewed as investment vehicles only.
Has become the norm. The "financialization" of business has become hugely widespread. Tesco makes most of it profits through careful investment. It raises the funds to do that through selling stuff. Most airlines make a good percentage of their profits through hedging options on fuel futures.
it’s a lazy and poor term ‘ junk jobs’ , a lot of middle management jobs and higher management could be very easily described as non essential ,not all , but they are overloaded in many sectors .
the creation of employment agencies who panhandle vacancies is a real junk job , creates nothing , just extracts off those doing the work , those type of roles are junk jobs, over night riddance would not cause any problems,in fact the failed sales reps who man these roles could retrain into a socially useful occupation like drivers.....
That David Graeber bloke up there on that YouTube is pretty pleased with himself, no?
I don't think I've watched or attended a lecture were the speaker laughs at his own jokes or self-references as much...Also; white middle aged male academic telling everyone else that their job is bullshit? OK then.
those furloughed or industries hit hard by the pandemic can be pretty sure they were/are doing junk jobs.
Ah, not really - manufacturing industries were furloughed, but middle management and accounts continued working from home.
IT, cafes, and most definitely theatres are junk jobs. If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
Lol, which pandemic were you in? IT kept half the economy afloat. I don't think you really know what 'IT' actually means, do you?
A large part of it is just like the lorries. They bring the physical things people need, whereas IT systems bring the digital things people need. Which are things like payments of money, and communications. Almost any time you interact with a business IT is involved.
This thread is an interesting read. Junk job seems to be different things to different people. But basically I think it boils down to people thinking "I don't see the value of a job/sector. Any sector/job I don't see value in junk"
The example above about recruitment agencies. Recruitment is a big overhead for an organisation - getting an agency to do it for you is a real saving. Not just in saving loads of time for (often senior) staff doing the recruitment but also de-risks the process because you tend to get better candidates (as the agencies are professionals at recruitment) and if they don't workout it's way less hassle for everyone to move on. In the big corporates where I've worked, using agencies the stages of recruitment to produce a shortlist of 3 or 4 candidates is a massive benefit in both time saving and reducing hassle - and so money. so it's not "junk"
white middle aged male academic telling everyone else that their job is bullshit? OK then.
Just like climate activists who aren't childless hair-shirted hermits living in a shack. Or socialists who go to a fancy beach wedding. 🙄
Or socialists who go to a fancy beach wedding. 🙄
Aren't socialists allowed to go to weddings or is it just Owen Jones who is banned?
“I don’t see the value of a job/sector. Any sector/job I don’t see value in junk”
This. People increasingly are happy to dismiss things they don't understand as being things we don't need.
... on the IT jobs being junk - I'm going to be generous and interpret this as the way that IT projects are set up lots of roles, structures, ceremonies, jargon could look like there is a lot of redundant activity.
I think this partly the eternal workers versus managers battle. Just that the workers are developers, TAs etc and the managers are product owners/PMs etc. From outside all paraphernalia or projects can look wasteful and bizarre. Inside the developers just want to get their heads down and do stuff and not be hassled by the seemingly endless reporting and analysis. That doesn't mean that the perceptions are correct, just that perspectives are narrow - It also doesn't mean that all the management and reporting is adding value - but it doesn't mean that all management and reporting is without value
That's not to say that any sector or business is optimally structured or that wasteful energy isn't expended - it's just nonsense to suggest that whole sectors or swathes of work within particular sectors are junk - or non-productive - is just nonsense