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Heres my twopennorth. I was 3 years from retirement, job i had was going down the pan but i thought any employer would take one look at my age and bin my application. Then i saw a job advertised by one of the major supermarkets stacking shelves early starts 5 am which as en ex postie suited me. The only bugbear was one of the shifts was a Sunday 🙄
I thought ah well put in for it itll be a bit of practice, that was in the afternoon by the same evening i was invited for an interview! Kind of flattered my 63 year old self. Got the job and soon realised it was because no bugger else was daft enough / could be bothered with those hours! 🙄
Since ive been there the amount of people who come and gone has been an eye opener! We even had a full on Vegan who despite knowing what the job entailed threw a full on wobbly when asked to work in the meat aisle!
What i also find amusing and it probably goes for a lot of jobs people in certain parts of society pre Pandemic treated you like dog shit on their shoes then when they couldnt just go shopping and get everything they simply had to have we suddenly became a bit more valued 🤔 " Wow who knew actual real people make this work i just thought everything just appeared" 🙄
Failure to secure a place comes down to the employer not prioritising training for the workforce and failing to book a spot or two on this course.
There is also the small problem of them not having any staff in Spain to send for training while also working there. Are you imagining a 2 week course looking at slideshows? Training comes in many forms, taking from days to years, sometimes done alongside work rather than taking a block of time out from work to study. The glib “just train our own” responses that people love to spout post Brexit nearly always ignore the true complicated and integrated nature of the modern world. Also, selfishly, I’ve quite enjoyed the times I’ve worked in teams with specialists from across Europe, including people employed to provide training to UK staff, I’m not cheering our efforts to be rid of them.
Quite a lot public sector workers also have to rely on benefits, which is absolutely **** crazy, if a government pay it’s own workers an adequate wage.
This was a real issue when we paid the £500 thank-you payment for COVID social care workers, some of them had to have it paid over two moths so it didn't interfere with their Universal Credit.
The above is basically what the average big tech worker receives
Yeah, no. Not even close to that and I have been in big tech and fintech since 1998. Some roles can drag that in if you have the right qualifications, niche and company, but they will be rare.
Yeah, no. Not even close to that and I have been in big tech and fintech since 1998. Some roles can drag that in if you have the right qualifications, niche and company, but they will be rare.
and the job board I posted?
Can only speak for London, but that’s the going rate for a top class senior software engineer, it’s been getting harder to hire since pandemic too.
But your lorry drivers aren't "top class senior software engineers". If there are top-class ones there are ordinary ones, and mediocre ones too. Nor are they usually living in London. So lets adjust for not living in London (and I think a shock might be coming to some of those Techbro's when employers realise they don't need to pay silly money when that industry lends itself to working remotely!). So Edinburgh very good s/w devs with all the right experience can earn up to about 75K - but that is because they are very specialist. But for every one earning £75k there are 5 earning 50k, and 10 earning 30k. Some will get options/shares, but definitely not all - many that do transpire to be worthless. Senior ones probably don't have realistic targets. Whilst some of the big companies are providing food on site - its as much about keeping people at their desks as providing a "perk". None will have a mentally stable and supportive manager. If they are offering amazing packages though its because the alternative is people going contracting at £500+ per day. I guess this is analogous to "owner drivers" on trucks who are presumably raking it in just now? But like software contractors have the risk that if a bubble bursts they are suddenly on nothing.
Spooky. £500 a day was exactly what was mentioned on Friday for any owner drivers available to work this week in the Gloucester area when I was talking to people down there. Those opportunities will be the exception not the rule though.
Anyway… higher pay, great. Key posts unfilled for extended periods of time will make companies rethink their approach, yes. The assumption this will always result in more good roles for “our own”, rather than deskilling, outsourcing, closures and relocations is a lovely optimistic view. Get ready for the answer to be deregulation, longer hours, and less protection for staff… (ie. the only one the government has pre-prepared as its answer to shortages when they start to really hit home).
The big problem there is who gets to decide what jobs are bullshit? A dangerous attitude.
For a business, a bullshit job is one that is so unproductive that paying people a living wage to do it makes it unprofitable. 🤯 Obviously this has no relation to the job's importance in society or how much the people who do them should be laid: social workers aren't "productive" but they're doing better and more important stuff than most dickheads (like me) have ever done.
For an worker a bullshit job is one that pays badly, is insecure, and has other poor conditions.
There's no reason to have bullshit jobs in our economy.
Edit: and could we see the rise of post-Labour Party trades unions?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/30/britain-labour-shortage-workers
Yeah, software guys I know in Edinburgh are generally on about £50k. That's folk late 30s/early 40s.
Generally pretty unhappy/stressed/mentally ill and looking to get out the game.
Brewing industry - a master's degree will get you in at £20k as long as you move.
Folk generally unhappy, long hours, unpaid overtime, old school (read: sexist) management.
Step one was always to make the minimum wage a real living wage, and to apply it to all workers. Pretending that step one was to make this a shittier place for foreigners to work is a distraction that’ll take a generation to play out.
The big problem there is who gets to decide what jobs are bullshit? A dangerous attitude.
Lol. The pandemic soon figured out what was essential.
It's not a dangerous attitude. It's actually quite astute if you want a progressive society, and a future for your planet to have a conversation about what constitutes a bullshit job.
Dangerous is the way around we have it now - consume with exponential growth. Deliver unrealistic share value forever. Not going to happen.
Liberals don't half hate the idea that their food bills might now cost a bit more.
The pandemic soon figured out what was essential.
Only in the short term. Plenty of essential work that could be postponed for a period of time was.
Liberals don’t half hate the idea that their food bills might now cost a bit more.
Perhaps they are worried just as much about other people’s food bills?
Pretending that step one was to make this a shittier place for foreigners to work is a distraction that’ll take a generation to play out.
You can look at it that way, or you can tangibly say we are now short of labour so wages will need to rise.
Don't get me wrong most Brexiteers didn't have this one in their arguments but it will vindicate some of their points.
As for inflation - this mostly happens on the supply side of goods. And usually in synch with baulked economies. Long term inflation is still trending downwards, and during this transition phase I suppose anything can happen.
We have been hammered over the head that the 2% target for inflation is something not to be broken - the reality is it's fairly arbitrary with no real purpose for the figure.
You know, we had been approaching deflation. That might be actually have been worse economically.
Only in the short term. Plenty of essential work that could be postponed for a period of time was
We are nowhere knowing what the long term consequences for the pandemic are.
It's not really concluded yet.
Perhaps they are worried just as much about other people’s food bills?
Perhaps. But I would imagine the emphasis of concern might be better targeted at the cost of renting or buying a house. But of course many of these people are landlords too. So they won't be too concerned.
Food is generally cheap. Too cheap really.
Certainly in comparison to other living expenses.
Liberals don’t half hate the idea that their food bills might now cost a bit more.
Hahaha 😀 I'm pretty sure no one of any political leaning would say "yes i'd like to pay more for food/goods/services :S
Hahaha 😀 I’m pretty sure no one of any political leaning would say “yes i’d like to pay more for food.
Price of everything and value of nothing.
I'm happy to pay more for food that is of higher quality and provenance.
Always have been. I dont think I'm alone. The proliferation of farm shops tells me I'm not.
Otherwise why would Aldi and Waitrose sort of co-exist.
Cheap food can only usually exist because of some form of exploitation or other. (Be it Labour, conditions, standards.)
I hate the idea of a world where Remainer logic comes undone because they enjoyed the benefits of exploited labour, despite arguing to the contrary.
I’m happy to pay more for food that is of higher quality and provenance.
Be glad you have that option. Not everyone does.
https://www.bigissue.com/latest/food-poverty-in-the-uk-the-causes-figures-and-solutions/
That Big Issue link is actually highly instructive (if read all the way through) - low wages paid to workers is a cause of food poverty.
Most people who fall into food poverty struggle because their income is too low or unreliable. This can be caused by low wages, a patchy social security system and benefit sanctions, which make it difficult to cover rent, fuel and food costs.
It can also be a result of living costs which are rising much faster than average pay does, which is why the Living Wage Foundation encourages employers to voluntarily commit to paying the Real Living Wage – calculated according to the real cost of living.
In-work poverty is on the rise and one of the main drivers behind food poverty. Around 72 per cent of children in families struggling to afford food have at least one parent who works, according to the Child Poverty Action Group.
Long term inflation is still trending downwards
Only because it excludes the thing most people spend the most money on!
Liberals don’t half hate the idea that their food bills might now cost a bit more.
I dunno if you are conflating the American Liberal label with the UK leftie, but if you are, then the reason lefties don't like high food prices is because we know that a lot of people can't afford food at current low prices, and we are concerned for them.
Is being concerned for someone else a strange concept to you @rone?
But I would imagine the emphasis of concern might be better targeted at the cost of renting or buying a house. But of course many of these people are landlords too. So they won’t be too concerned.
Scroll back mate.
The current government don't want an educated workforce, hence their all-out assault on HE.
They want a large underclass locked in the food/tat distribution game.
But companies won't take a hit on their profits and Exec pay, so prices will go up. Cheap shitty food from places like the US will allow the prices to apparently be maintained whilst the good stuff becomes unobtainable for the worker drones.
Any jobs that can be, will be automated out of existence.
The above is basically what the average big tech worker receives.
Really?
Nope, the top few percent working for Google achieve that (which makes the news etc). Your average website developer will be on less than half that. In Silicon Fen, a principal dev / architect will be on £80k ish, maybe a bit more.
Hahaha 😀 I’m pretty sure no one of any political leaning would say “yes i’d like to pay more for food.
Well Waitrose and M&S are good examples of people doing exactly that!
My take on the HGV shortage as a new pass and fresh to the market:
All of these headlines about the likes of Tesco etc offering £1k sign-on bonuses. These are not aimed at the new drivers. They want to poach the decent drivers from their rivals. They're also only being offered to HGV Class 1 drivers (artics) and the vast majority of new passes are Class 2 (rigids). What I'm seeing over the whole industry is the drivers who have lots of experience and Class 1 licenses are cherry-picking the plum jobs and getting them, hoovering up all the new higher pay. The jobs that are left are all the ones no-one wants to do, this is where the new passes like me are having to enter. Most of these opportunities are still only accessed through agencies, some of whom lie about what the jobs are and others who are lied to by the companies which them is passed on to the driver. I've had one job where it was described as 8-10 drops over a 10 hour day. Turned up to find it was 21 drops and I was out for 13 hours before turning back having not done 9 drops, two days in a row. The first day I worked out that to get round all the drops would have taken 14 hours of driving, let alone breaks and delivery times, hold-ups etc. The company were genuinely surprised when I told then there wouldn't be a day 3.
Lots of transport companies have got used to drivers doing 50+ hrs a week to make up for the poor pay, especially the IR35 crew that now no longer exist. This means that there is a massive cultural shift required to now make it work, namely more sociable hours, better pay, vastly improved conditions (rest areas, less pressure on time slots, etc) and a realisation that they will need to invest in drivers through training, skills refreshers and reward schemes. If the industry refuses to acknowledge these issues and act to improve them then there will be no drivers in a very short time. Old drivers are looking to leave, new drivers are being lumped with the crap jobs so are leaving, training is very expensive and putting people off and pay levels are a joke in some parts of the market. If you hear a transport company berating a lack of drivers then they need to be told that they will need to improve their offer to the drivers and if that means added costs then they will have to pass that on to their customers. The industry has hit rock bottom now and can't really go any further, the only way to keep things moving is to improve driver's lives and that will ultimately mean goods costing more on the shelves.
Allowing the European drivers to come back will also not fix the issue. Lots of them have gone back home and thanks to the tanking exchange rate have realised that they can work back home, see their friends and families more often and still end up financially in the same position as if they were over here. We kicked them out and they're not coming back, certainly not in the same numbers.
The only reason I'm sticking it out trying to get a career as a HGV driver going is that I'm not really qualified to do anything else and I love working outdoors. If I could stomach being in the same room looking at a computer screen or walking the same aisles all day I'd be doing one of those jobs. I'm one of the odd ones out as most drivers don't like the job and only do it to pay the bills. Things need to change.
Very simple question, if Germany, whilst in the EU can pay decent wages, why can't the UK. What makes you think being outside the EU will make any difference.
What makes you think being outside the EU will make any difference.
One of the main *benefits* of Brexit was being freed from pesky EU Red tape which required employees to be treated well. The benefit was to be allowed to exploit them even more with lower pay and worse conditions.
I hate the idea of a world where Remainer logic comes undone because they enjoyed the benefits of exploited labour, despite arguing to the contrary.
EU wasn't perfect. But you can be in the EU and not exploit labour. Our successive governments were guilty of allowing the economy to be built on exploited Labour, not the EU.
One of the main *benefits* of Brexit was being freed from pesky EU Red tape which required employees to be treated well. The benefit was to be allowed to exploit them even more with lower pay and worse conditions.
And the Brexiteers convinced the turkeys to vote for Christmas with a bit of cheap racism/xenophobia and fake news.
Still makes me chuckle now.
Long term inflation is still trending downwards
Why?
The situation with the lack of HGV drivers is massively affecting the food and drink industry. The company I work for relies on transport to be on site at a specific time, otherwise production lines stop producing.
The issue is that as a country we have worked towards a just in time distribution model. I’m not 100% sure of the exact figures, but I was in a presentation that gave figures of around 50% of our warehousing volume is on the back of a lorry. It’s not in bricks and mortar. We saw the impact when nearly every lorry was parked in Kent a while back. Nothing was moving. Now take out the EU drivers and you have a warehouse problem.
I’ve seen job offers for HGV drivers knocking on the door of £80k for a 4 day week. But it’s not going to attract new recruits, well not soon, it’s just poaching staff from each other.
Brexit, Covid, the pandemic shutdown, and the Suez traffic jam are just the tip of a looming ice berg. Unfortunately we have a blind, drunk, truth-adverse, “Captain” at the helm of SS Great ****ed Britain.
Drinks on the 💩 Deck whilst the band plays on!
Good luck @reluctantjumper, I hope you find the right employer. There are some good guys out there. Both my Dad and my uncle enjoyed their time driving… both were “could never work in an office” types… but you do need the right job with the right boss.
The issue is that as a country we have worked towards a just in time distribution model. I’m not 100% sure of the exact figures, but I was in a presentation that gave figures of around 50% of our warehousing volume is on the back of a lorry.
Pushing out pollutants, filling the roads, enabled by cheap labour, poor t&C's and conditions that attract a limited group of people into the sector
Not sure I understand that. It reads like a criticism of JIT and not consumption?
JIT doesn't mean more pollution than longer term storage, nor more traffic, nor worse working conditions which exist in longer term storage and transport as well.
Working conditions for some roles are poor, but it's not a result of JIT as far as I'm aware. I'm happy to be corrected if you have a credible source?
agencies are the pimp of employment , just take a cut of the workers labour , in construction it’s absolutely a mess , with different types of contracts , all so called self employed , reality is the opposite .
This casualisation of labour is about to backfire , no apprentices, no security , all your pension, sick pay , holiday pay , travel is wrapped up in a rate , which might seem good at first glance , but broken down its precarious , insecure and induces zero loyalty .
The employers would rather this dogs dinner than the dreaded unionised workforce , with retirement at 55 after 40 years hard labour , army , cops , etc do 21 years ......
This is replicated throughout the economy , hardly stable , and will never provide a stable workforce .
It's possible that JIT supply chains are less suitable for rail freight due to the less direct nature of rail and the fact it needs to change over to road for the end of the journey etc.
But that is a guess.
Using sweeping generalisations, but on average I would expect JIT to reduce waste. So long as that waste actually costs money.
Where JIT might fall down on environmental factors is perhaps where a production line is so efficient and so prone to massively inefficient breakdown if disrupted that it is worth (stupid overblown example) it becomes 'worth' flying each part in individually. But JIT is about cost cutting ultimately. So long as society places cost on inefficient use of resources, JIT is the best way. Society and politics is a bit shit at this, though.
Well, in theory, labour shortages should push wages up. In reality, we might get more illegal immigrants working in fields, rather than kebab shops (i'm generalising).
It seems unstable over time though, and cylical ie increased demand improves supply --> inflation --> decreased demand and so on...
JIT is basically a supply method (for production), so used the world over. It's affected by trucks (driver shortage) 'cos that's what we use in the UK for most of our internal transport.
Rail is only really used for bulk movement over longer distance e.g. aggregates/timber or by Tesco to Scotland or finished vehicles from Landrover to the docks.
The current government hate secure employment of educated employees. They want an increasingly insecure and transient workforce. Agencies will rake it in as a result.
JIT is basically a production method, so used the world over.
Well, we didn’t use JIT in the 1970’s… so we can abandon it in the UK now with few ill effects… yes? It’s the Brexit dreamers way…
Yes, you can use something else. Produce stock in advance and hold it until you get the price you want. Ironically, that would stop dairy farmers going out of business - they could sell only UHT milk instead of fresh everyday...
It’s possible that JIT supply chains are less suitable for rail freight due to the less direct nature of rail and the fact it needs to change over to road for the end of the journey etc.
I think, the high frequency of deliveries in smaller vehicles is probably more the issue. Just to contradict myself.
with retirement at 55 after 40 years hard labour
What job are they doing that starts at 15?
But JIT is about cost cutting ultimately. So long as society places cost on inefficient use of resources, JIT is the best way. Society and politics is a bit shit at this, though.
This
The worst bit of any production line is the waste streams, the number of sites that run plant that can't cope treating liquid waste is legion. They dump it to sewer or watercourse relying on the fact that both the water companies and the EA won't prosecute. It's done because the cost of doing it right outweighs the cost of just getting away with as much as you can
Good luck @reluctantjumper, I hope you find the right employer. There are some good guys out there. Both my Dad and my uncle enjoyed their time driving… both were “could never work in an office” types… but you do need the right job with the right boss.
Yes ,the key is finding somewhere good. Ironically the place I'm working at for the next fortnight did offer me a job last time but the monthly wage wasn't enough to cover bills and commuting or moving closer (big increase in rent between Cardiff and Bristol!). It's a pity as the staff are good, the work is manageable and only 40hrs a week. Would have been ideal but I'd struggle to have any spare left every month.
agencies are the pimp of employment , just take a cut of the workers labour , in construction it’s absolutely a mess , with different types of contracts , all so called self employed , reality is the opposite .
My current agency and the one before both treat me as an employee. I accrue holiday pay for every week I work and this second one really do put in the effort to find the job to suit the person the best. I know it's very rare but they are out there!