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Junk job seems to be different things to different people.
Yeah I think that's fair. To me an element of it is "stuff done more cheaply by humans" is junk. Car washing springs to mind. We used to have a machine in every town that can do that job quickly and cheaply, now the opposite is true, all the machines are either broken or idle, and every town has a team of blokes doing it for a fiver...That's junk. Same for fruit picking, or other veg. The machinery exists to do that job. That farmers don't invest in it is the sign of an industry that's failing to thrive (insert your own own villain here). That's junk also
Car washing springs to mind. We used to have a machine in every town that can do that job quickly and cheaply, now the opposite is true, all the machines are either broken or idle, and every town has a team of blokes doing it for a fiver…That’s junk.
Probably more to do with the cash in hand black economy and money laundering for organised crime. That and people's laziness.
What if humans do a better job? Our local automated car washes are cheaper than the hand wash equivalent. Why do people choose the human option?
What if an agricultural landscape with the workforce removed ends up a biological, environmental and social desert, like much of North America?
Most jobs can be done away with. Is a junk job any that can be reorganised out of existence by automation and changing what we produce? If so, that's many of us.
Anyway, one person thinks that managers in the NHS and GP practices is a junk job, another thinks that someone working in IT in telecoms have a junk job... it's all about people failing to see the value in the work of others. We can't hope to ever understand the specialisms and toil of everyone else... but we can do them the service as not dismissing what they do as "junk".
Just like climate activists who aren’t childless hair-shirted hermits living in a shack
It was a joke (sort of) I'd bet that any WASPY tenured male academic - especially in anthropology could be replaced by some-one more qualified or with greater insights. Academia is littered with junk jobs (for the boys)
Yeah I think that’s fair. To me an element of it is “stuff done more cheaply by humans” is junk. Car washing springs to mind. We used to have a machine in every town that can do that job quickly and cheaply, now the opposite is true, all the machines are either broken or idle, and every town has a team of blokes doing it for a fiver…That’s junk. Same for fruit picking, or other veg. The machinery exists to do that job. That farmers don’t invest in it is the sign of an industry that’s failing to thrive (insert your own own villain here). That’s junk also
Isn't this just business/capitalism/government policy. If it's cheaper to use labour than machinery, then market forces will push to use labour to remain competitive. It's up to Government's to regulate the market to redress the balance - increase minimum wage, regulate hours, holidays, working conditions etc.
I'm all for more regulation as increasing minimum wage, improving conditions can drive investment in technology and skilled people to design, build, maintain and operate it - creates a virtuous circle - increased productivity, reduced costs, higher quality
Unfortunately - it require stricter government regulation and government investment to kick start the process. I wouldn't be looking to the current Government for this.
It kind of brings us back to the original point about labour shortages...
Same for fruit picking, or other veg.
Hmm kind of depends on the crop and also the size of the farm.
What if humans do a better job?
I think they might be able to, but it should be a premium option i.e. not done as cheaply. People chose the human car wash because incrementally the difference between the £3.50 machine and the £5.00 gang of blokes isn't worth worrying about. My argument is that if it's AS cheap to employ a human, it's probably junk.
Just like climate activists who aren’t childless hair-shirted hermits living in a shack. Or socialists who go to a fancy beach wedding
You object to rising sea levels and the extinction of species, but I notice you are using a computer. Curious. I am very intelligent.
I’m all for more regulation as increasing minimum wage, improving conditions can drive investment in technology and skilled people to design, build, maintain and operate it – creates a virtuous circle – increased productivity, reduced costs, higher quality
Does create a bit of a problem for good chunk of the unskilled population, you replace 50,000 seasonal fruit pickers with a few 500 machines and a few hundred technicians / engineers to support them. However, even less jobs for the unskilled....
...well apparently there's a terrible shortage of workers to fill unskilled jobs so...
Hmm kind of depends on the crop and also the size of the farm.
Yes. Obviously if we want human to carry on doing things that could be done by machines (for historical or tradition, or whatever other reason we deem socially important) then some roles should obviously continue as long as they have value to the society. Priest, crofters, basket weavers, tonal singers what ever. But they should be paid accordingly. Same for things like hill farms or growing infinitely delicate things like water-cress or whatever. If it has cultural value, it goes without saying that society should value it.
Does create a bit of a problem for good chunk of the unskilled population, you replace 50,000 seasonal fruit pickers with a few 500 machines and a few hundred technicians / engineers to support them. However, even less jobs for the unskilled….
This has always been seen as an issue as technology has progressed from the industrial revolution onwards - but never really materialised. I guess part of the answer is new opportunities arise over time and improved conditions mean less hours worked. I also guess change happens over time so society can adapt.
The fruit/crop picking thing is a real problem. There was a farm recruitment chap speaking about it the other day and the main issue with UK based staff is that the workforce needs to be moved around.
Pick crops at farm in location (a), move workforce to location (b), move to location (c) etc., etc. The overseas workers come just to do that job for a few months so they have no family or social life to get in the way. Getting UK workers to put their lives on hold for a couple of months is a hard-sell!
it’s a lazy and poor term ‘ junk jobs’ , a lot of middle management jobs and higher management could be very easily described as non essential ,not all , but they are overloaded in many sectors .
the creation of employment agencies who panhandle vacancies is a real junk job , creates nothing , just extracts off those doing the work , those type of roles are junk jobs, over night riddance would not cause any problems,in fact the failed sales reps who man these roles could retrain into a socially useful occupation like drivers…..
At last someone with an understanding of the term junk jobs.
It's not meant in a derogatory way, although egos can get bruised when they are identified as occupying a junk job.
Probably more to do with the cash in hand black economy and money laundering for organised crime. That and people’s laziness.
Anyone doing a car for a fiver is breaking a law somewhere.
At last someone with an understanding of the term junk jobs.
Really? Because that is not an example of a junk job, it is an example of many different companies outsourcing/sharing a function that they all use and don't wish to replicate and staff internally.
Anyone doing a car for a fiver is breaking a law somewhere.
Our local Police are inspecting all the hand wash places in the region over concerns of modern slavery.
[re automation] I also guess change happens over time so society can adapt.
Yes, this has literally been going on for over 200 years and it hasn't been a problem - quite the reverse.
Personally, I'm glad I don't have to do shit jobs for shit pay - quite happy to let a machine do that. The money injected into the economy by the machine can fund me doing something more interesting.
I think the definition of pornography applies to junk jobs. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
Actually, that's not true. Only the person who is actually doing the job knows whether they are doing a junk job or not. I, for one, don't plan on telling my employer just how much of a junk job I am doing until Basic Income is established.
The only way to figure out what percentage of jobs are junk is to get people to self report how junk their job is. Good luck with that.
For the record, my job is well over 90% junk. The actual useful work I do in a 40 hour week could probably be done in 2 hours.
Personally, I’m glad I don’t have to do shit jobs for shit pay – quite happy to let a machine do that. The money injected into the economy by the machine can fund me doing something more interesting.
Exactly, efficiency, in fact what I believe one of the relies to this thread said, which is the real reason for lower wages, worse pensions etc than many other seemingly equivalent countries (i.e. they are not equivalent, their economy is stronger).
The money injected into the economy by the machine can fund me doing something more interesting.
This is one of the ways UBI could stimulate the economy. If people didn't have to enslave themselves to poorly paid jobs they don't want to do, stuff like carwashing would be forced to automate, providing well paid jobs for engineers, software developers and machine manufacturers etc.
As Graeber says in that video above, we've built a religion around work which doesn't make any sense. The weird logic of 'earning' or enabling our leisure time by doing work we hate - which often has little use beyond keeping us busy - drives the urge to consume and all the problems we have which derive from it.
This is one of the ways UBI could stimulate the economy.
Yes I'm a big fan of the idea of UBI, because it would give people power over their own lives and if your job was shit you could leave. But as said, it needs to go with rent controls otherwise private landlords would just siphon all the money off.
I believe society's aim should be to give everyone a good fulfilling life. But that's not the Tory idea - they want to let whatever happpens happen - which, since the industrial revolution at least, has created a country full of wage slaves. Great.
Yes I’m a big fan of the idea of UBI, because it would give people power over their own lives and if your job was shit you could leave. But as said, it needs to go with rent controls and/or provision of adequate, affordable social housing otherwise private landlords would just siphon all the money off.
There is absolutely no reason for us to live in an economy based on 'work or starve' and yet here we all are. Even in supposedly progressive Nordic countries the basic principle is still the same, just not enforced with the same kind of zeal you find in the UK.
Our local Police are inspecting all the hand wash places in the region over concerns of modern slavery.
A multiagency investigation of every staffed car wash in my council area found no evidence of modern slavery.
The crux of the matter is do we want to live in an exploitative system that is rapidly running to climate armageddon , with resources , both natural and human to be exploited for a few wealthy people ( statistically) or can we put a big stop to all of it .
It my seem a mammoth task , that’s how we’ve been conditioned to think , nothing you can do , but that’s false , in 1916 in russia the bolsheviks were about 5,000 in number , yet 18 months later they had seized power from the corrupt feudal fsarist regime , not going to argue it didn’t go wrong after , point being a few people with the right ideas at the time , before internet , phone systems effectively in a country the size of a continent did it , it literally shook the capitalist world to its core , we need a newer version of that , but it has to be a worldwide movement or it would be crushed , therein lies the problem .
Our kids , / grandkids are the ones going to really suffer with the revolutionary change that’s needed more than ever .
It my seem a mammoth task , that’s how we’ve been conditioned to think , nothing you can do , but that’s false , in 1916 in russia the bolsheviks were about 5,000 in number , yet 18 months later they had seized power from the corrupt feudal fsarist regime
That was then. The difference now is that the Bolshevik revolution has already happened.
Also, things were a lot worse for them than they are for us now, that's how they managed to pull it off.
not going to argue it didn’t go wrong after , point being a few people with the right ideas at the time
The right ideas? They weren't that right, were they, given the shit show that followed? Yes, PARTS of Marx are great, but others I don't personally think so.
That might work eventually for HGV drivers but how do we ‘train’ people to pick fruit and pack meat? The wages would have to get a lot higher to encourage enough UK workers to do it IMO.
i suspect that you leave them with no choice by stopping their benefits.
They weren’t that right, were they, given the shit show that followed? Yes, PARTS of Marx are great, but others I don’t personally think so.
I think a post-mortem of the Bolshevik revolution and subsequent soviet regime is probably a bit beyond this thread 🙂
Back on topic though, the main problem in our globalised capitalist society is that we have been fooled into thinking there is no alternative. Capitalism itself, and especially the financialised, exploitative, kleptocratic version of it we have now is a relatively new thing which was designed rather than being some natural 'that's the way things are' state. It could just as easily be changed to something else, and there are signs of that happening following covid and the crash of 2008.
or can we put a big stop to all of it .
No, I don't think we can, there are too many vested short term interests for anything to be allowed* to be meaningfully achieved before the planet largely become inhospitable for most of humanity. I think overall humans as a species will probably survive. (we've been here before, the fossil record shows a narrowing of all humans across the planet to perhaps as few as 2,000 individuals) but the way we live now? No.
The planet will hopefully have a chance to reset, humans will perhaps have learned a lesson (perhaps not) but I think we've got a hundred, maybe two at best before it's curtains
* for what it's worth, outside of one or two proper morons, I reckon most 1st world politicians/leaders would be OK with a massive reset of "How We Live" I think they're just too in thrall to the folks that whisper in their ears and pay the bar tab to actually make the jump all together. They've lost too much trust and belief in themselves to realise that, and make it happen.
Capitalism itself, and especially the financialised, exploitative, kleptocratic version of it we have now is a relatively new thing which was designed rather than being some natural ‘that’s the way things are’ state. It could just as easily be changed to somethinelse, and there are signs of that happening following covid and the crash of 2008.
think if you can look and read marx and engels 1848 communist manifesto , there is a very concise and accurate summary of global capitalism, and how it was inevitable , it does eat itself in its more benign forms , hence it’s not reformable or remotely controllable , it needs to be replaced with need not greed , love not hate , and all given the opportunity to flourish without favour .
They weren’t seers , just very astute economists / revolutionaries/ philosophers.....
Really don’t understand where supermarkets make their money – my local supermarket shelves are bare with the exception of frozen pizzas, ice cream, high-sugar cereals, fizzy drinks and booze. Fruit, veg and fresh produce are mainly empty. If the supermarkets were genuinely interested in the health of the nation they’d reduce the number of high-sugar cereals and hydrogenated fat products on their shelves to create space for the stuff in demand.
Why would they be interested in the health of the nation? Their aim is to sell food and other goods to people in a profitable manner, and also convince people who currently shop at a competing supermarket to switch to them, to further increase profit.
If your local supermarket contains a large proportion of "junk food" then their extensive market research has indicated that this is what the customers of that particular store wish to buy.
UBI, while being obviously the correct answer has a gigantic flaw - the implementation of UBI will suddenly mean there are almost no key workers and our society will collapse and it will be Mad Max as hell!
If you get a living wage for doing nothing, it is going to take quite an offer to get you out to work for someone else. The current labour shortage we have an its effect on supply chains is nothing to what happens after UBI.
I still think we should do it though.
As with all these things, they only work if the majority of people want them to, believe in them and change their attitudes in line with them. The society must want them to happen
People have been brainwashed over the years into accepting that the current system is the only way and happiness is achieved via having more than someone else. How many threads just on this forum about what £50K car should I buy, what is the best £5K bike, my house is worth £700K etc,. it is all about money.
A multiagency investigation of every staffed car wash in my council area found no evidence of modern slavery.
Not what's happened here in the East Midlands, a few have been caught for slavery, a lot more for breaching minimum wage and other tax offences.
Ironically, it looks like capitalism has (inadvertently) delivered what it always promised, but never actually materialised to anyone but those at the top…
Choice
For example, I have 2 mates who worked in hospitality for years. During Covid, as everything was shut down, they had to find jobs in other areas. Which they didnt struggle to do.
Now everything has opened up again I asked them if they would be looking to return to the hospitality sector
After considering the question for approximately a quarter of a millisecond, they replied “not a ****ing chance!”
Why the hell would they go back to working longer, antisocial hours for shit pay?
Looks like plenty of other people have reached the same conclusion in a variety of sectors. So it’s not just the EU workers all going home, plenty of UK nationals have thought ‘bollocks to this’ after analysing their priorities over the last 18 months and concluding that their jobs are shit, and they can do better
So good luck filling those vacancies for bar staff, chefs, restaurant managers and fruit pickers. Those people are all off doing something else
rudebwoy
Free Member
The crux of the matter is do we want to live in an exploitative system that is rapidly running to climate armageddon , with resources , both natural and human to be exploited for a few wealthy people ( statistically) or can we put a big stop to all of it .
It my seem a mammoth task , that’s how we’ve been conditioned to think , nothing you can do , but that’s false , in 1916 in russia the bolsheviks were about 5,000 in number , yet 18 months later they had seized power from the corrupt feudal fsarist regime , not going to argue it didn’t go wrong after , point being a few people with the right ideas at the time , before internet , phone systems effectively in a country the size of a continent did it , it literally shook the capitalist world to its core , we need a newer version of that , but it has to be a worldwide movement or it would be crushed , therein lies the problem .
Our kids , / grandkids are the ones going to really suffer with the revolutionary change that’s needed more than ever .
Very much this^^^
You only have to read through this thread to see there are too many sheeple unable to think outside of what they think they know .. and ignorantly assume its wanting to return to the 1970`s.
Our natural world is literally on its last legs due to how our societies work. Human greed, consumption and ignorance is way out of control. We need a big rethink, maybe a reset.
Covid has been horrendous for millions of people. But let us hope it drives a rethink and change in society. Its difficult to imagine we can maintain how we are doing things today for another 100 or 200 years when you look back at the damage we have done in the last 50 years ... we have destroyed or damaged more than is left.
sheeple
Ooo… edgy.
I stopped reading there.
Nice new username by the way.
sheeple
Anybody using that word I automatically assume can't think for themselves since it's become the go-to term for people who have nothing else to say but insult people who don't agree with them. That's not thought, it's the complete lack of it.
A simpler life I can wholeheartedly endorse and firmly believe paves a path towards happiness. I don't however think for 1 second it'll actually happen.
If it were to happen though, I think it would be technology that makes it possible, to balance a simple and fulfilling life without the wars, the famine, disease, etc... It's entirely possible to have the best of both worlds, it's not one or the other. It's the political drivers that are the problem and the general crappy attitudes and shortsighted thinking of the human race.
Back on topic though, the main problem in our globalised capitalist society is that we have been fooled into thinking there is no alternative.
Indeed. Largely by the media, which is largely run by rich people who like the status quo.
The memory of the 70s will due out bit by bit though, and they won't be able to invoke it. Hopefully that'll help.
The memory of the 70s will due out bit by bit though, and they won’t be able to invoke it. Hopefully that’ll help.
Nah. See 'Blitz Spirit' and other shite clichés uttered by folk who never lived through it.
UBI, while being obviously the correct answer has a gigantic flaw – the implementation of UBI will suddenly mean there are almost no key workers and our society will collapse and it will be Mad Max as hell!
If you get a living wage for doing nothing, it is going to take quite an offer to get you out to work for someone else. The current labour shortage we have an its effect on supply chains is nothing to what happens after UBI.
Depends which 'key workers' you mean. A lot of nurses and carers etc do it despite crap wages, because they want to make a difference and help people. So a UBI might mean more people can afford to do work like this.
But yeah, I doubt too many people would be Hermes drivers or shelf stackers if they didn't need to be...
I would predict a fair exodus from the NHS, teaching and many other key roles on the introduction of UBI, not everyone to be sure but more than enough to cripple them. UBI topped up with a bit of low stress casual work vs the stress of teaching feral kids or dealing with people who have put themselves in hospital and want to take it out on the people trying to look after them, hmm tough choice.
Never quite understood how UBI would be funded, sorry don't buy into the magic money tree version of economics some on here preach. Also if we all get the same where does that leave people with additional needs,nor do we have a sliding scale of UBI based on need and income, we could call it social benefits. Seems like a good system in principle even if it's been badly implemented, and there's the rub, even if UBI is a great polciy you can guarantee any elected government would screw up it's implementation.
You underestimate people. Everyone I know in the NHS or teaching are perfectly capable of earning the same money or more elsewhere for fewer hours and less stress. There are people who genuinely want to make a difference. And during the pandemic many people took on delivery jobs as much to keep busy as anything else. The idea that UBI would lead to a nation of inactive layabouts doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. It’s very Daily Mail in fact.
I used to work in a 24/7 plastics factory. Machines would run 24/7* churning out plastic ****ing buckets, all week, all month, year after year. Could never get my head around the need for some many ****ing plastic buckets. ****ing hated that job with a passion/despair/proximity-to-depression. Thanks for listening!
* except they didn't because it was a ****ing shithole and the machines were ancient, filthy, stinking, noise place, and stillages literally stacked to the ceiling full of rejects.