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Isn't Corbyn busy attending an inauguration in Chile?
Otherwise he would have been all over this shit.
I’m sure there are many creative ways to really **** up a cross channel ferry.
Staff it with an entirely new crew?
Can I ask – pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
Pre-Brexshit, they couldn't have done this, no. All employment laws were meant to be a copy and paste job from EU to UK statute. Only somewhere along the line, some workers rights legislation mysteriously went missing.
Nobody ever saw that coming, eh?
Its also worth noting that the parent company responsible for this is working in conjunction with the government on their whole Freeports (tax-evasion and money laundering) project.
I'm sure their are plenty more dubious employers watching this with interest
Can I ask – pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
No they couldn't have, and in theory they still can't. Any company that is planning this many redundancies in one go has to notify the Govt (and any unions I think) at least 45 days in advance.
Can I ask – pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
Yes, they probably could have done it. UK law hasn’t changed (much) in this area. There would be a higher court to take this to, where UK law and/or Government action could be found lacking… but that would be a lot of actual work for the RMT though… where as now they can just complain about it and have no legal process (beyond that the UK gov provides for, ie. neutered employment tribunals) that they can pursue to help their members (current and future) keep their jobs and maintain their rights as workers.
Sorry, should clarify, yes you can make this many people redundant, just not in the way P&O have gone about it.
I thought the point of redundancy was that the role was no longer required. Fire and rehire cannot equal redundancy.
Turns out that Jeremy Corbyn and the Lexiteers
Dunno why you’re having a go at Corbyn (I do really) when he wasn’t in a position to do anything. Had he won the 2019 election this wouldn’t have happened.
Go have a word with the labour rightwingers who made sure that never happened and the Lib Dem remainers who forced an election rather than joining labour to defeat Boris.
Funny how all the French and Dutch staff all still have their jobs. It's fairly obvious which government P&O see as being more amenable to what they're doing. The one now outside the EU, obviously
This really is a disgrace and unfortunately exactly what Brexiters meant by freedom from the EU and reasonable behaviour to save owners a few quid.
Im quite sure that any losses are paper losses using transfer pricing to another group company registered in the owners tax haven of choice. As has been said they found £250m to give to shareholders from this mess. They also found £147m to sponsor professional golf so clearly they aren’t short of a few quid. I hope all those affected especially hauliers and the owners of their container contents sue P&O for all losses caused by delays and inconvenience. Alas post Brexit legislation changes wont do anything to help the sacked staff
Aren't the employment rules somehow different because they are sea-based workers?
“ Pre-Brexshit, they couldn’t have done this, no. All employment laws were meant to be a copy and paste job from EU to UK statute. Only somewhere along the line, some workers rights legislation mysteriously went missing.”
But there’s not a shred of evidence that this is the case - employment laws remain the same.
The coverage in the HR press (including by employment law solicitors) this morning seems to conclude:
- employment law hasn’t changed since Brexit
- unless the workers were on maritime contracts (which is an unknown), DPW have likely crossed employment law and will have a substantial number of cases arising as a result.
- In that eventuality, action against the the parent company can be pursued even if the trading subsidiary no longer exists
- if the workers were on maritime contracts there’s basically no comeback - no least because the ships are flagged from Cyprus
Just about everyone is in agreement that the way this action has been progressed is completely unacceptable - with Starmer and Johnson both saying the same DPW will now be in a very difficult position - and if the workers are not on Maritime contracts DPW should be moving on some of their leaders in short order.
Can I ask – pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
Not sure but our wonderful govt definitely approve.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58997916
French employees, still employees
https://twitter.com/kimwillsher1/status/1504469136197316626?t=QUuQjmqlWU-bgURkTB77aw&s=19
The Social Media Team at P&O Cruises are working hard. Maybe time for a rebrand.
P&O Cruises is part of Carnival Corporation & PLC and as such is entirely unrelated to P&O Ferries.
Just about everyone is in agreement that the way this action has been progressed is completely unacceptable – with Starmer and Johnson both saying the same DPW will now be in a very difficult position
I'll eagerly await Johnson terminating the governments relationship with DWP and their freeports project?
Maybe best not to hold my breath though, eh?
Said on the news this morning that the employees contracts were based in Jersey so bypassed UK laws. or something along those lines anyway....
I'm with cheddar on this.
Employment law is written to remove 'probably'; employers actions are either legal or illegal.
As for onza's comment about redundancy - absolutely correct; jobs can be made redundant provided that the legal requirements, including consultation, are met - people are not made redundant.
This is mass sacking with severance payment.
They also found £147m to sponsor professional golf so clearly they aren’t short of a few quid.
At the same time as not filling a 146 million pension hole. They really are charmers.
It’s mad, isn’t it? Turns out that Jeremy Corbyn and the Lexiteers turned out to be the most clueless morons to ever walk the planet. Who knew?
Nah. They're not nearly as clueless as the morons who claimed to support Labour, yet worked so hard to ensure Corbyn never got near to power.
It’s mad, isn’t it? Turns out that Jeremy Corbyn and the Lexiteers turned out to be the most clueless morons to ever walk the planet. Who knew?
Nothing to do with Brexit, AIUI. Still, crack on with the reflex babbling about Corbyn - it gives me comfort that in a changing world some things are utterly predictable.
Employment law is written to remove ‘probably’; employers actions are either legal or illegal.
And can result in payout of a variable size, including as low as zero, even if illegal. The law protects employers more than employees.
Please don't let this turn into one of THOSE threads, just ignore the trolls.
Please don’t let this turn into one of THOSE threads
It's a pertinent point though. Had labour won in 2019 this almost certainly wouldn't have happened as Corbyn would have delivered on his promise to strengthen employment law and ban fire and rehire practices. Trouble is binners and his fellow rightwing travellers didn't want a Corbyn government and this is the inevitable result.
(sorry, it's Friday and I'm not exactly focused on work 😄 )
Anyway...
Employment lawyers seem to be saying that this may well be illegal. If so, presumably P&O know that, and have priced compromise agreements or tribunal claims into their decision.
One of the 'replacement' crews is presently on Five Live describing what happened yesterday.
Its absolutely unbelievable!
They were told they were crewing a boat, but had absolutely no idea what was going on. They rock up to the dock and the security guards all file on to escort all the existing crew off the boat and install the new one. They had no idea that that was the plan. The only people who knew were the security team.
He obviously didn't then go on to crew the boat, and pointed out what a crazy idea it would be to try and sail a boat with an entirely new crew who hadn't even set foot on it before
would have delivered on his promise to strengthen employment law and ban fire and rehire practices.
Because centuries of democracy tells us that once elected the government always makes good on its promises?
It's as relevant to what is as if Gavrilo Princip hadn't had a decent throwing arm.
Sure things would have been different but you can't in any objective way say how.
Employment lawyers seem to be saying that this may well be illegal. If so, presumably P&O know that, and have priced compromise agreements or tribunal claims into their decision.
Reports this morning are P&O are offering "enhanced" severance which would strongly suggest they know they shouldn't have done what they did and how they did it.
Redundancy notices are being issued, with the P&O apparently having recognised the unlawfulness of its actions with comments that enhanced compensation will be paid.
P&O’s offer of “enhanced” redundancy packages indicates that it may have “recognised the unlawfulness of its actions”, according to Tata.
Employment lawyers seem to be saying that this may well be illegal
It does all smack of someone in DPW just not understanding that you really just can't do this sort of shit in the UK, and makes me wonder if some (perhaps US where this sort of shit is legal) executive has just decided "**** it, this what I want, make it happen"
This is going to make a chapter in every business handbook titled "How to handle 800 redundancies really badly, while at the same time trash any reputation your business may have had"
kelvin - your point is?
But why only the UK staff?
See the above comments about the likely reaction from unions elsewhere, its not that employment law protected French or Dutch staff, its [probably] that DPW value their property significantly more than their staff.
(also French elections kick off in a few weeks so there would be a very very hard fast response from govt. you'd have to be a complete moron to think now would be a good time to poke that bear)
It does all smack of someone in DPW just not understanding that you really just can’t do this sort of shit in the UK, and makes me wonder if some (perhaps US where this sort of shit is legal) executive has just decided “**** it, this what I want, make it happen”
This is going to make a chapter in every business handbook titled “How to handle 800 redundancies really badly, while at the same time trash any reputation your business may have had”
Yeah, the hope here is that UK PLC make life as complicated for P&O in the future to put down a marker, as they've clearly focused on the UK element as they know how they'd have been treated if they'd done this in France or Holland.
Reality unfortunately will more than likely see this drag out a while, get into the mid section of the papers and allow those in power to avoid doing anything about it, DPW and all it's subsidiaries, links, etc will have ways into a lot of those in key positions in the UK, so will be more than happy to follow this approach.
But why only the UK staff?
Because they either thought that if we do this to the French there's a good chance they'll sink the ships, or it's just that some finance executive has put the 800 redundancies wholly in the UK business unit on a spreadsheet, sent the whole thing off in an email to be authorised and then idly wondered what he'll have for his tea.
For me probably the latter is more accurate given my experience of senior management practices around the world
I get the feeling there is a lot more to this story. Does anyone have a link to some details rather than just sack and rehire? Note I am not saying that it is a good practice but it is essential to see the path that has been trodden and general date of the situation.
I get the feeling there is a lot more to this story
or it’s just that some finance executive has put the 800 redundancies wholly in the UK business unit on a spreadsheet, sent the whole thing off in an email to be authorised and then idly wondered what he’ll have for his tea.
I'm get the feeling nick is right and there's much less to this story.
Because centuries of democracy tells us that once elected the government always makes good on its promises?
You doubt if Labour had won in 2019 things would have been very different? Strengthening employment law, giving more power to unions and banning fire and rehire was the top priority for an incoming Corbyn govt. You can delude yourself that it would have made no difference if it makes you feel better, but in reality what we saw yesterday was the direct result of the actions of all those who did their utmost to prevent a Corbyn govt. I hope they're proud of themselves.
I think this is very simple as well - DP in Dubai are busy doing some asset stripping and creative finance work and their attitude to employees will not be very good - simply an expense to be removed. The idea that employees are your best asset are just applicable to these companies
Assuming you've not won the lottery every week since its inception daz I'm saying I doubt your ability to knoe what the future looked like before it didn't.
their attitude to employees will not be very good
Listening to the accounts of people on Five Live at the moment. that would appear to be the understatement of the year.
People who'd been employed for 30 years were escorted off the ship by security staff like criminals. Staff who had cabins that they basically lived in for weeks at a time had all their possessions bundled into bin bags and thrown off the boat.
On what planet does any employer think that this is an acceptable way to treat your staff?
On what planet does any employer think that this is an acceptable way to treat your staff?
Regretfully the vast majority of the middle East, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, presumably the vat East.
I imagine a lot of the (v. wealthy) west thinks its OK, they just know they can't do it to be honest.
Assuming you’ve not won the lottery every week since its inception daz
Your ridiculous analogy only works if the lottery company announced in advance which 6 numbers they intended to choose. The more serious point is that 800 people, and surely many more over the next couple of years, are now out of a job thanks to idiots and a***holes in the labour party who put their prejudices and personal ambitions before the interests of UK workers.
Arent P&O owned by the IAE sovereign wealth fund
maybe they thought brexit would let them get away with this here but not in France or just that French more likely to strike/ stick up for workers
also
https://twitter.com/carltonreid/status/1504772078167339015
The more serious point is that 800 people, and surely many more over the next couple of years, are now out of a job
Well I can certainly agree with that bit
in reality what we saw yesterday was the direct result of the actions of all those who did their utmost to prevent a Corbyn govt.
I think the hysterical ranting directed at the wrong people earlier betrays a certain self-awareness of that. The dark art of deflection.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks