[Closed] What makes a man in 2017?

Using the term bum rape is to view something childishly?

It's all nonsense. The only experience that being male allows is one of priviledge. Everyone says so. It's ideological orthodoxy.

sometimes I wonder if Robert Webb is actually Jeremy from Peep Show.

Ah hols2 beat me to it.

why men struggle to maintain adult friendships and why they are more likely than women to kill themselves

Do they?

Anyone would think Webb had a book out which has been serialised on Radio 4 all week.

Shitty comment Rob.

Not funny.

Any context for those of us who have no idea what the "being-a-man festival" is about?

Groans for the first person to say it's about how to be a man.

A festival for people who hang out in "men's sheds" discussing, worrying and fretting about their masculinity or lack thereof instead of just getting on and enjoying life?

A Man's a Man for A' That

Any context for those of us who have no idea what the "being-a-man festival" is about?

It's about engaging with the idea of masculinity in the modern era, something which has been utterly ignored or viewed with derision.

It's about engaging with the idea that masculinity is not homogenous; that there are many forms of expression many of which are denuded and looked down on by all areas of society (men and women).

I guess it would be about challenging dogma and orthodoxy.

I imagine/hope it would be to discuss the difficult issues that men genuinely experience.

Basically it's meninism. I'm tempted to go.

It's about engaging with the idea of masculinity in the modern era, something which has been utterly ignored or viewed with derision.

Pretty sure I've avoided engaging with this for the last 50 years without any down side...

Pretty sure I've avoided engaging with this for the last 50 years without any down side...

I'm not sure how that would be possible. If you're male then whatever choice you've made about how you want to express yourself or what kind of person you want to be, then at some level you will have engaged with the notion of masculinity, even if you've not done it at a conscious level.

If you're not male then unless you've lived exclusively in a world with no other males, you will similarly have engaged with the notion of masculinity at some point, again, even if that was not a conscious decision.

I agree though that these terms (masculinity, femininity etc) are pretty nebulous and for many people that makes them unimportant. But I can't think of a time when it was more important than now to be discussing what masculinity actually means and how it's expressed.

I've learned to drink, and I've learned to smoke, and I've learned to tell a dirty joke.

But if that's all there is, then there's no point for me.

then at some level you will have engaged with the notion of masculinity

Possibly, but then I wouldn't know how to (nor have any interest) in defining masculinity. It just seems archaic to even want to.

All the important things like work ethic, social responsibility are (or should be) independent of your sex.

All the important things like work ethic, social responsibility are (or should be) independent of your sex.

I quite agree. I think where, with respect, you might be missing something though, is that the expression of those things, i.e. how you go about representing work ethic, social responsibility etc, is not homogenous and men and women frequently find it easier to express these things in different ways.

You can be socially responsible in many different ways.

So a good example is how poorly society tends to reward men for being good fathers but how highly it rewards them for being successful at work (to the point of sociopathy, which is deeply unhealthy for everyone concerned).

I also think your statement ignores the connection between behaviour and body chemistry. Testosterone for example has a very specific effect that is inaliable; you can't ignore it but you also don't have to be a slave to it. Similarly, there is something going on that tends to make men less agreeable but also less neurotic. Again, this is a reality of a broad, measured difference between men and women. It's small but significant, which makes at least asking the question, what does it mean to be a man/mascline highly relevant.

What makes a man in 2017?

Having a special stick for stirring paint

Basically it's meninism. I'm tempted to go.

My experience of "meninists" on the Internet would lead me to believe that's akin to wanting to celebrate having blonde hair and blue eyes by joining the Hitler Youth.

Testosterone for example has a very specific effect that is inaliable; you can't ignore it but you also don't have to be a slave to it.

I don't disagree, but defining masculinity won't have the slightest difference on my testosterone levels nor probably any effect on how it affects my behaviour.

Again, this is a reality of a broad, measured difference between men and women. It's small but significant

Again, don't disagree, but I still don't see any need to define masculinity, just seems like pointless navel gazing.

On a lighter note, the wife have me a copy of The Husband for xmas a while back, which I came across this morning, probably as good a guide as any...

[img] ?v=1500744834[/img]

[img] [/img]

We should all aspire to be this guy...

My experience of "meninists" on the Internet would lead me to believe that's akin to wanting to celebrate having blonde hair and blue eyes by joining the Hitler Youth.

Yes there's a lot of that about. The term 'meninism' though is as broad as say 'feminism', and at it's own extremes, the latter is about as bonkers as the far right meninists you refer to.

Yea, weird.

Testosterone levels steadily decline in men from the age of about 20. If testosterone is a marker of a man, then you’re all steadily being less of one.

Rachel

Testosterone levels steadily decline in men from the age of about 20. If testosterone is a marker of a man, then you’re all steadily being less of one.

No one said that testosterone was a 'marker' for masculinity.

allthegear - Member

Testosterone levels steadily decline in men from the age of about 20. If testosterone is a marker of a man, then you’re all steadily being less of one.

Rachel

That's not entirely correct. The number is more like 30 and although testosterone does decline as we get older it's in the range of about 1% per year. Environmental effects have a much bigger impact on testosterone than aging so some point in life most men will enter full time employment, they will have children. So they'll become less physically active, more stressed, sleep less and gain weight.

Basically life is going to throw you a perfect storm of contributing factors which will cause your testosterone to decrease.

footflaps - Member

Again, don't disagree, but I still don't see any need to define masculinity, just seems like pointless navel gazing.

I am assuming this attempt to define masculinity isn't about sitting around scratching your beard wondering if you are manly enough. Presumably it's to try and help concerned men figure out their place in a world where they are being told more and more often that they are the cause of all society's ills and that all masculinity is toxic.

masculinity is toxic.

Did you see the comments that referenced exactly this in regard to the proposed remake of Lord of the Flies but with an all female group?

Anyway, top of the list of things we need to discuss is why almost 80% of all suicides are men.

where they are being told more and more often that they are the cause of all society's ills and that masculinity is toxic.

I don't see much if any of that, what I do see is equality idiotically being misrepresented as a an attack on men (or white men if we include racial equality).

MSP - Member

I don't see much if any of that, what I do see is equality idiotically being misrepresented as a an attack on men (or white men if we include racial equality).

I don't see much equality being idiotically misrepresented as an attack on men but I do see information being misrepresented and twisted, or indeed outright lies about the levels of ineqaulity people experience and these are being used to lobby opinion and effect change.

I also see people explicitly stating that we need to end capitalism, smash the patriarchy and put an end to male oppression and white privilige. It would be idiotic to assume that people who's stated aim is to end civilization as we know it are benign in their intentions.

Anyway, top of the list of things we need to discuss is why almost 80% of all suicides are men.

Well quite.

Well I reckon I had **** all testosterone at 30, so 30 odd years later I may as well be a woman. Not that I care, I quite like suspenders.

Well I reckon I had **** all testosterone at 30, so 30 odd years later I may as well be a woman. Not that I care, I quite like suspenders.

I think some people really over think things. I've never wondered about what it is to be a man, faced any kind of prejudice, worried about testosterone or felt like I've been blamed for anything. The suicide thing though, that is extremely saddening and cause for concern.

Edit - I get blamed when things get broken around the house. Mainly because it's me that breaks them

All smacks a bit of a white person saying what a hard time they have been white and living in the UK.

I think some people really over think things.

Whenever somebody mentions white privilege it always makes me think of this. Not anything to do with this thread, sorry, but a very on point and funny song

Edit - and I agree wholeheartedly with this

but really we're all different and there's no "should" about it.

kerley - Member

All smacks a bit of a white person saying what a hard time they have been white and living in the UK.

And yet just look at how many people on this forum start threads about depression, how many people identify with others who state they are having trouble with depression or the number of people who start threads under pseudonyms about how their lives are falling apart.

Given the generally accepted social status of the majority of forum posters this should probably be renamed whitemalepriviligetrackworld and yet unhappiness and depression seems rife. Perhaps all these privileged men complaining about their lives should just go quietly into a corner and kill themselves?

I was thinking the same thing. There seems to be a bit of angst around what a man should be like, and what a woman should be like, but really we're all different and there's no "should" about it.

This and lots of it. Am I privileged? Dunno. Didn't feel like it growing up in that council flat. Again, couldn't care less if people think I am or not.

but really we're all different and there's no "should" about it.

Again, no one has said anything of the sort Vickypea. I have explicitly stated that the need for a debate about masculinity is that it's not homogenous. It's also not really talked about, actually not talked about at all.

We talk a lot about feminism though and that's good because debate is important.

And yet just look at how many people on this forum start threads about depression,

Yes, quite.

ABout 15 years ago my uncle's wife, with whom we were all close and was the love of his life, was diagnosed with cancer. It was horrible for everyone but mostly for him and his wife.

Every time I met up with them, they took a lot of pain to emphasise that no matter how bad their situation was, that didn't mean other people's problems or pain was any less relevant or real.

The worst ills that one member of society experiences does not mean that other, lesser ills are any less important.

Again, no one has said anything of the sort Vickypea.

I didn't mean on this thread, but I didn't make that clear, sorry.

. I have explicitly stated that the need for a debate about masculinity is that it's not homogenous. It's also not really talked about, actually not talked about at all.

sadly to be a man in 2017 you have to be as female as possible without going full trans gender

What makes a man in 2017?

I'll ask the wife.

Which is actually a serious answer.
Being masculine is about attracting a partner, and in this thankfully unhomogenised and enlightened time, we realise that all people are individuals, so our 'masculinity' if such a thing exists, is bespokely tailored to suit each individual potential partner.

For practicality we retain a balance of our own individuality, rather than becoming some sort of projection of their fantasy, or else they themselves won't have anything to base themselves on.

It's a pretty neat system.

That's my theory posted from my van somewhere on a windswept moor, where I have taken the kids for the night so t'other half can have a lie-in tomorrow

sadly to be a man in 2017 you have to be as female as possible

Re Depression and number of threads on here etc.

I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of understanding or definition of manhood / masculinity. Nor do I think having one would make any difference.

For the record I had a nervous breakdown in 2007 and have been on SSRIs ever since. Had bugger all to do with masculinity.

I'm not understanding this having to be as female as possible thing. I, as many on here probably know from other threads, suffer with depression and have done most of my adult life. It has nothing to do with my status as a man though. Of course other people may suffer with mental illness that is related to how they feel they do or don't fit in to society. Depression can start for a multitude of reasons.

Edit - footflaps said it better whist I was typing this

I didn't say it shouldn't be debated, I was trying to say that there shouldn't be rules about what makes a man (or a woman for that matter)

100% agree.

so our 'masculinity' if such a thing exists, is bespokely tailored to suit each individual potential partner.

Well, yes maybe, but then maybe not. Think of it like this. All people are genuinely individual; no two people are entirely alike, not even twins.

And yet, it is still possible to broadly group people together if you make the boundaries describing those people wide enough. So, for example, everyone is measurable along an axis that describes extroversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, openess and conscientousness. If you measure the population on these traits the data is normally distributed.

People are all individually, but they are also all a bit alike. So while you're own expression of masculinity is indeed unique to you, it's not that unique that people won't recognise it as such.

Anyway, top of the list of things we need to discuss is why almost 80% of all suicides are men.

This..

How many threads on here about suicide & depression?

How many of those threads are started by men??

Genuinely curious as to what you mean by expression of masculinity? I don't knowingly express masculinity I just do stuff that I like doing and be me. How that fits in with anyone's idea of what a man is doesn't really enter the equation. Well, at least not until I opened this thread.

Is the suicide stat a worldwide one or just based on the western world?

neuroticism

What makes a man in 2017????
Might have been said already but a birth year of ....1996??
As a man I can't multitask to check-
Google the medical age a boy becomes a man.
Do subtraction.
Type this.

[url= https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2015registrations#main-points ]ONS Suicide stats[/url]

"2. Statistician’s quote
"While the increase in the suicide rate this year is a result of an increase in female suicides, males still account for three quarters of all suicides. There has also been a continued increase in suicides for males under the age of 30, however, these remain lower than the peak seen in the late 1990's and remains significantly lower than the suicide rate for middle-aged males despite falls in recent years."

You have to ask why more men than women commit suicide..........

[url= https://www.samaritans.org/about-us/our-research/research-report-men-suicide-and-society ]Samaritans report[/url]

I'm with you GeeTee. How can you understand feminism without understanding what we might term 'masculinism'...? Neither exists in a vacuum. Also without understanding where gender roles and stereotypes have come from and are maintained - we cannot move past them...

I believe in white privilege. However, it doesn't mean that people from white European backgrounds cannot have serious issues in their lives. That's not what white privilege means.

Given the generally accepted social status of the majority of forum posters this should probably be renamed whitemalepriviligetrackworld and yet unhappiness and depression seems rife. Perhaps all these privileged men complaining about their lives should just go quietly into a corner and kill themselves?

Apart from I didn't imply any of that. People get depressed for all sort of reasons and from all backgrounds and statuses, I don't think masculinity in 2017 is one of the key ones...

The mental health lecture I went to recently said that this is not a thing, it's sexist and the word should not be used.

Well that statement contradicts decades of established research into profiling and personality.

There IS a problem with people misunderstanding and misuing the term and it is absolutely true that the spectrum of what 'neuroticism' measures, does produce a normal distribution for women that is shunted slightly to the right compared with men. So women as a (very large) set score higher than men (I think it's about 1SD).

But that doesn't mean neuroticism is a negative thing; it can be for sure but then so can low agreeableness (which men score much higher on than women by about the same margin).

It is true that the term has acquired negative connotations and it is true that society has used the data in a pejorative way towards women, but that doesn't mean it's not a thing. It is.

My understanding of neuroticisn is that is translates broadly as the degree to which you tend to worry about things or feel anxious. There are many subsets of that of course but if you think about it, being blase and laissez faire about everything tends to result in a poor outcome. You need a certain amount of neuroticism in order to care about things.

The mental health talk you attended and the statement you heard made sounds very much like the kind of 'cultural marxism' that is dumbing down our universities. That a 'thing' has been ill used doesn't mean the thing should stop existing; it does mean it's musapropriation should be addressed though.

The XY chromosome determines maleness. Anything else is subjective. If I believe I'm a giraffe does that make me a giraffe?

kerley - Member

Apart from I didn't imply any of that. People get depressed for all sort of reasons and from all backgrounds and statuses, I don't think masculinity in 2017 is one of the key ones...

No you just said

All smacks a bit of a white person saying what a hard time they have been white and living in the UK.

The obvious inference being that if you are white you shouldn't say you're having a hard time. Doubly so if you're a white male. Because, y'know if you're a white man you're running the world along with Trump and Putin.

The Samaritans link even states that emotional illiteracy is one of the main factors in the high suicide rates in men. It's men's ability to deal with pain and stifle emotions that make them more likely to kill themselves or to just live in misery and depression.

Our fathers and our grandfathers probably never had to question what a man's role in the world was. That's nowhere near as obvious for boys growing up today.

Our fathers and our grandfathers probably never had to question what a man's role in the world was. That's nowhere near as obvious for boys growing up today.

This is such a good point it's precisely because of the liberation of women (and rightly so) that the role of men has changed and by default the notion of masculinity.

Look you can say you're not interested in notions of masculinity but saying there's no such thing is just ignorant and stupid. You only have to look at adverts for men's products and compare examples from the 70s with now to see very clearly that there is absolutely a shared notion of 'masculinity'.

Of course the irony here is that the tendency to dismiss anything other than cold empirical and logical phenomena is itself a classic masculine trait.

This is such a good point it's precisely because of the liberation of women (and rightly so) that the role of men has changed and by default the notion of masculinity.

Nail on the head.

Women's lib has meant that traditional female & male roles have changed. I think the female role is more clearly defined, as it is that one which has been pushed to evolve, men on the other hand have not had an evolved role outlined for them with quite the same definition. Hence, a bit of a vacuum.

The obvious inference being that if you are white you shouldn't say you're having a hard time. Doubly so if you're a white male.

Nope, not what I was saying either. What I am saying is that the hard time a white person is having is very unlikely to be caused by the fact they are white.

I have specifically stated that the being white bit is the bit that tis giving them the hard time.
"All smacks a bit of a white person saying what a hard time they have being white and living in the UK"

How can you understand feminism without understanding what we might term 'masculinism'...?

That sounds logical, although the feminism debate has become really complicated these days to the point where it's sometimes disappearing up its own backside. The evolution in the female role was supposed to be an evolution towards more equality, for example getting the same pay for doing the same job. Shouldn't the debate be about how we all live together without detriment to one group?

I've somehow managed to put my response in a quote format
😀

 

Look you can say you're not interested in notions of masculinity but saying there's no such thing is just ignorant and stupid. You only have to look at adverts for men's products and compare examples from the 70s with now to see very clearly that there is absolutely a shared notion of 'masculinity'.

That's just the changing face of marketing and how society wishes or thinks that men view themselves, you can choose to ignore it if you like. Calling people ignorant and stupid is a tad harsh don't you think? I'm not saying there is no such thing, just that it is completely irrelevant to me.

Calling people ignorant and stupid is a tad harsh don't you think? I'm not saying there is no such thing, just that it is completely irrelevant to me.

Apologies if it came across as directed at you. I think it's of no consequence if someone doesn't feel that a sense of their own masculinity is important to them. It's just ignorant and stupid to suggest that it either doesn't exist or is irrelevant in society. I think some people were suggesting that.

The marketing comment is interesting. Why do you think marketing people chose those particular images as a representation? That's the point of defining anything in society. Look around at the messages being encoded in what you see.

It's semiotics if you're interest in the broader subject matter.

Have to say that making ends meet while still having what is called a life has occupied my mind far more through my adult life than any concerns about what place masculinity plays in modern society.
Basically I've come up short on the number of ***** I need to not give on the matter.

Well if you have nothing useful to contribute on this subject don't waste your time responding.

Well if you have nothing useful to contribute on this subject don't waste your time responding.

Calm down sweetie, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

He posted his opinion, his opinion isn't useful to you but it's still his opinion none the less.

Are you on your man-period?

His opinion was he has no opinion.

And how about you? Do you have anything remotely constructive to add or is that the limit of your intellect?

funkmasterp - Member

That's just the changing face of marketing and how society wishes or thinks that men view themselves, you can choose to ignore it if you like.

I don't agree. Media and marketing are designed around the archetypes of a society. They have to resonate with their target audience otherwise they fail. There will be exceptions that turn expected norms on their head for comedic or dramatic effect but for the most part they are accurate.

If we look back at films or advertisements from the 1930s or 1940s they tell us a lot about the society that produced them. They don't have to be documentaries to show us the attitudes and norms of the time.

Films from the 60s, 70s or 80s tell us a lot about how people dressed, talked, what was socially acceptable and what wasn't. It's impossible to ignore the world around you. Media shapes culture and culture shapes media.

kerley - Member

Nope, not what I was saying either. What I am saying is that the hard time a white person is having is very unlikely to be caused by the fact they are white.

Okay, so all you are saying is that you can take a group of people and make a bunch of assumptions based on their skin colour.

Have to say that making ends meet while still having what is called a life has occupied my mind far more through my adult life than any concerns about what place masculinity plays in modern society.
Basically I've come up short on the number of ***** I need to not give on the matter.

You personally may not have had to worry about it as such - as it seems you are carrying out the very masculine role of being the provider (making ends meet). There are still plenty who do feel uncertain of their role as a male in modern society.

It's an intereating social phenomenon. I see it partly symbolised by the upsurge in male grooming products & the way accessorising is now part of the male wardrobe.

Personally, neither are for me. But pick up GQ et al & look at all the ads for skincare & cufflinjs if you want proof.

There's barely any difference between that mag & Vogue..

His opinion was he has no opinion.

Wrong.

And how about you? Do you have anything remotely constructive to add or is that the limit of your intellect?

Oh, you're questioning my intellect. At least you didn't question my masculinity, that would have been devastating daaaaarling.

Okay, so all you are saying is that you can take a group of people and make a bunch of assumptions based on their skin colour.

Oh, you're questioning my intellect. At least you didn't question my masculinity, that would have been devastating daaaaarling.

No dear I"m questioning your validity and contribution to society. Have you got anything useful to contribute, a reasoned argument or some useful insight on this topic?

What I am saying is that the hard time a white person is having is very unlikely to be caused by the fact they are white.

I think this is almost certainly true but it fails to acknowldedge the myriad of other ways by which people experience discrimination.

Peple of colour and female gender do not have the monopoly on having a hard time in life.

Apart from I didn't imply any of that. People get depressed for all sort of reasons and from all backgrounds and statuses, I don't think masculinity in 2017 is one of the key ones...

I've posted this before but I'd really recommend watching this documentary. "Indoctrination" in "being a man" starts at a very early age by society and peers. Pressure to conform, whilst I doubt most boys realise it, is extremely strong.

Ever wondered why men die at a younger age than women? Have more heart attacks and stress related illnesses? That has alot to do with being the masculine provider and it kills men. So I'd argue that masculinity in 2017 can have some damaging affects.

You personally may not have had to worry about it as such - as it seems you are carrying out the very masculine role of being the provider (making ends meet). There are still plenty who do feel uncertain of their role as a male in modern society.

One of my life's good fortunes has been hooking up with a really lovely lady who is career driven. Meaning I consequently get a nice standard of living for not much effort. I have no feelings of uncertainty of my role in society and no concerns about my sense of masculinity. I suspect this is down to not seeing gender as a relevant factor in who is the/a breadwinner. Being a lazy gobshite probably factors in quite strongly as well.

Ever wondered why men die at a younger age than women?

I suggest typing variants on that question into Google. The are lots of geographical variations and that helps identify the main culprits. Just one example: three times as many men drink themselves to death as women in France and Sweden. That's the ones who haven't already killed themselves doing stupid things when drunk.

I suspect this is down to not seeing gender as a relevant factor in who is the/a breadwinner

More power to you.

Indeed, if more saw gender as a less relevant factor in defining who did what then a lot of societies problems would vanish.