[Closed] What makes a man go on a killing spree?

News said it was BS that he killed his mother

We all tread a very fine line. If you have not seen someone 'lose it', you are indeed fortunate. To see someone fighting their demons and the demons appearing to win, is not something you can forget.

As with cinnamon_girl, we're all closer than we'd like to think.

Just look at some of the threads on STW, I'd have put money on some people here going postal over the tories getting in.

Actually, we should all be concerned about mental health especially in the current economic crisis. An awful lot of people are having a tough time, coping with loss of self-esteem, financial worries etc. We really do need to try hard and reach out to people.

I thought this was another thread about mountain bike training courses?

I'm not sure we all do tread a fine line, I can only think of now 3 people that have gone postal like this in my life time. Despite this being 3 to many, it does mean the staggering majority of us don't do this. This has been a needless and bewildering tradegy for all those effected, and they have my deepest sympathy. But I'm not going to be spending my days worrying about people who look a bit tense.

We really do need to try hard and reach out to people.

The only way I want to reach out to a nutter with a shotgun (effective range 50 metres) is with a Barrett sniper rifle (effective range 1000 metres +)

So if nobody could reach out to this killer, what does that say about our society?

According to those who knew him, he seemed an OK type of bloke, and they were genuinely shocked.

It comes back to treading a fine line ...

Yep, just fear everyone, it could have been any of us.......

it could have been any of us

Couldn't have been me, mate

I don't have a shotgun

Lol's @ eldridge..... But it seems you are treading a fine line 😉

A bit of perception wouldn't go amiss.

Agree with Cinnamon Girl on this one - you can never quite predict the outcome of people who have for example been made redundant, the subsequent financial pressures, which can lead to relationship pressures, then to drink / drugs / domestic violence / homelessness etc. I have worked in the past with alot of homeless people who once had successful lives until a major crisis happened in their lives. Our increasingly fragmented families and communities mean support for those in need is often not available.

I have no idea about the mental health status of the man who went on this spree, but I find events like this just harden the perception that the mentally ill are more dangerous than the general population, and since these are the people I spend my days working with, I see how this belief further isolates people. I feel this awful incident is an extreme but quite isolated incident, and I find the scaremongering a bit off.

So if nobody could reach out to this killer, what does that say about our society?
[b]and[/b]
According to those who knew him, he seemed an OK type of bloke

This makes no sense to me - so we're expected to reach out to people with no obvious problems ? Most of us want to get on with our own lives and would be useless at neutralising the psychotic.

it could have been any of us

my destructive inclinations are always directed at myself. I might be a selfish bastard but I would never want to inflict my personal demons on anyone else.

So if nobody could reach out to this killer, what does that say about our society?

From interviews with people who 'knew him' it seems he gave no indication that any reaching out was required.

OK, I'm going to get some flak now but I do believe that women are more tuned into reading the signs, showing empathy etc. We are more or less programmed into this from birth.

Define psychotic.

Define psychotic.

killing people for no reason

seeing as the vast majority of the people i work with are women

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Our family has had its fair share of unhinged types (no blood relations... I think) over the generations and without wishing to cause offence to anyone, there's a good reason that the general populace are afraid of those who don't fit comfortably into the system.

Their behaviour is erratic. I've watched a cousin pull his brother down the stairs by his hair during an 'episode', whilst screaming in such a way that I'm still a six year old boy right now, watching it happen on Xmas day 1979.

Those who SNAP are the scariest of all. No warning, no doctors' notes.

plus, why does he have to be a looper? it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he had some sort of organic brain disease.

i might take some flak for this but i think when it comes to reason men are more tuned into it. we are more or less programmed for this from birth 😉

I did wonder about the effects of a stroke...

but I do believe that women are more tuned into reading the signs, showing empathy etc.

realises it's going to be one of those debates....so quietly backs away before it gets more pointless.

i work with a guy who is a bit scary. he's on probation for threatening someone with a baseball bat. he's totally shit at his job. he resents anyone successful while he sits on facebook all day. seems like he's from a decent family but he has always 'loses out' and of course its always someone else's fault. yesterday i could have decked him for being a complete arse if i was that way inclined. he will self-destruct, i just hope he doesn't take anyone with him. should i 'reach out to him', or stay very far away?

all those [s]effected[/s]

affected

Throw the first punch and follow it through with another (few). The run like Hell.

It's not your business so leave well alone. If you choose to make it your business you'd better know what you're doing & talking about & be prepared for the very long haul or he'll see you as someone else failing him and that will make you No1 target for when he gets his shot gun license.

My ex.

OK, I'm going to get some flak now but I do believe that women are more tuned into reading the signs, showing empathy etc. We are more or less programmed into this from birth.

Just to back Cinnamon Girl up on this, there is empirical evidence to show that women are more likely to be tuned into 'feelings' especially other peoples' feelings than men. This evidence is provided by a number of personality profiling tools. By and large they show no gender related correlation for any personality characteristic apart from those associated with feeling and empathy, where there is a significant correlation.

It doesn't mean that men are not capable of posessing or even developing this capability.

However, I don't agree with the argument that we are all treading a fine line if by that you mean the line between keeping it together and going on a murderous rampage.

I think Cinammon Girl is describing the fact that life is often really quite hard and many of us have periods where we feel we're loosing it or are having a hard time coping. I've been there myself this year but while it was undoubtedly a difficult period, I don't think I came any where close to doing what this guy in Cumbria did.

Someone made the point that this kind of thing is desperately rare and of course it is. But the instance of mental health issues and depression are not rare. Perhaps what Cinnamon Girl is reflecting is a fine line between coping and having a nervous break down. While that very rarely results in a murderous rampage, it can be life destroying for the individual and those close to them.

I've been there myself this year but while it was undoubtedly a difficult period, I don't think I came any where close to doing what this guy in Cumbria did.

And that's the key. Many, many people end up in a 'dark place' in their lives, I know I did once. But out of all those people 99.99999% of them will never go on a bender and shoot 12 people dead. And there's no way you can account for the odd loose cannon like that. It can't be done. Reading the paper today it strikes me this was the premeditated action of someone who knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and had planned it. Whatever you do you just can't even begin to believe that someone you know could be thinking stuff like that.

show that women are more likely to be tuned into 'feelings' especially other peoples' feelings

uh, if you're not tuned into your own feelings you are a plank!

sorry, i'm just getting over inhaling my rice krispies over the 'scientific' evidence that is personality profiling tools.

as i said - the women i work with
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

i could cite some actual data as to why it appears 'women are more in tune with feelings' but if we're going down the profiling route i'll just go for the homeopathic influence of the moon

Someone made the point that this kind of thing is desperately rare and of course it is. But the instance of mental health issues and depression are not rare.

Yes it was me, and you are right mental health problems are not rare. But in general, people with mental health problems are no more dangerous than the general population, in fact probably less so.

[url] http://www.mind.org.uk/help/research_and_policy/dangerousness_and_mental_health_the_facts [/url]

sorry, i'm just getting over inhaling my rice krispies over the 'scientific' evidence that is personality profiling tools.

So Swiss01 I guess you’re a PhD in Psychology then are you? Oh no wait, you can’t be because if you were, or if you’d even bothered to read about how profiling tools actually work, you’d know that they are based on highly scientific approaches to generating data. These tools are driven by massive amounts of observed data and highly rigorous statistical analysis.

What you’re (ignorantly) confusing is the difference between what is scientific and what is predictable – perhaps you think that scientific means things have to be 100% predictable. Well I am not a scientist but I’m pretty sure that Heisenberg took care of that Victorian notion of science back in the early part of the last century.

There are issues with personality profiling tools and yes they have a much higher degree of variance in their data than other observable phenomena. We are also light years away from being able to truly understand the connection between personality/hard wired characteristics and behaviour although we can ‘predict’ with often pretty good results, how an individual might behave based on personality profiling as well as other observational data.

The issue with the guy in Cumbria is that this type of behaviour is characteristic of an outlier – they’re so far from the mean as to make it very difficult to predict.

if you’d even bothered to read about how profiling tools actually work, you’d know that they are based on highly scientific approaches to generating data. These tools are driven by massive amounts of observed data and highly rigorous statistical analysis.

so nearly as accurate as weather forecasts then ? (or was it astrology ?)

but I’m pretty sure that Heisenberg took care of that Victorian notion of science

ah yes, the Heisenberg principal of uncertain diagnosis...

It may be notable that West Cumbria is generally quite an isolated and economically disadvantaged area (a characteristic shared with Dunblane, I think).

Lack of traditional "male jobs"?
Independent/self-reliant community spirit/identity?
Abandoned by mainstream politics?

Material in this awful situation?

uh, if you're not tuned into your own feelings you are a plank!

Loads of people are not tuned into their own feelings, hence therapy thrives.

I'm not sure this sort of thing is something anyone can predict.

Loads of people are not tuned into their own feelings, hence therapy thrives.

at the risk of stating the obvious, if you can't feel it, it ent a feeling

so nearly as accurate as weather forecasts then ?

Personality profiles will typically give correlation values of up to 0.4, most are around 0.3, so yes, a high degree of uncertainty with regard the results but still a very significant correlation.

Astrology, graphology, palmology etc, correlation values typically around the 0.05 area so not remotely significant.

As for weather forecasts, also an inexact science but it doesn't stop us watching them every day or huge amounts of money being poured in to improving the forecasts.

Again, don't confuse scientific with predictability.

It may be notable that West Cumbria is generally quite an isolated and economically disadvantaged area (a characteristic shared with Dunblane, I think).

I live about 8 miles from Dunblane, and its far from an isolated or economically disadvantaged place.

I dont think there is any need to try and draw parallels at this stage.

EDIT: not having a go, but its all just speculation at the moment.

So, the guy was oinvolved in a legal wrangle over a will with his brother, and he shot the lawyer involved and the brother. I think it looks like this may have been the trigger, and then once he flipped, he just went looking for anyone else he thought deserved it, hence the taxi drivers he was arguing with. We dont know really if he knew the other people or whether they were random though.

I think there are just occasions where people flip out and cause damage, thats always going to be the case, and life cant be restricted by trying to account for random chaos events that will happen every now and then.

I live about 8 miles from Dunblane, and its far from an isolated or economically disadvantaged place.

Thanks for that. Happy to be corrected be people who know.

I take the point about speculation.

In realation to the original thread title I was going to say "a woman", but I'm not sure its appropriate as theres some suggestion it may be the case!

he just went looking for anyone else he thought deserved it, hence the taxi drivers he was arguing with.

Was he arguing with them? I thought they were his friends according to the media?

The all ride On-one Inbreds strangely!

C'mon, I don't think the "humour" is appropriate here.

Was he arguing with them? I thought they were his friends according to the media?

I hope this doesn't mean you're not supposed to argue with your friends ?

I hope this doesn't mean you're not supposed to argue with your friends ?

I rarely argue with friends? They're friends because despite different interests in life, they have similar values.

They're friends because despite different interests in life, they have similar values.

I only have friends because I like them, regardless of their ideas. But they have to be good at arguing.

I only have friends because I like them, regardless of their ideas. But they have to be good at arguing.

simon, you probably argue with yourself when there is no one else around. of course your friends have to be good at arguing.

simon, you probably argue with yourself when there is no one else around.

no, that's what I have friends for 🙂 However, my point was that having an argument is hardly justification for mass killing 🙁

from the OP

Whitehaven killer shot dead his mother yesterday...

Is this what may have tipped him over the "edge"?

If I read that right, you think that killing his mother was what pushed him over the edge? What sort of boundries do you have?

The title is interesting "What makes a man go on a killing spree?"

Killing sprees seem to be almost exclusively a man thing, no?

Killing sprees seem to be almost exclusively a man thing, no?

but about 50% of the population is male, so it's not very useful categorisation. Now if it was middle aged singles with job problems and a gun licence...

plus, why does he have to be a looper? it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he had some sort of organic brain disease.

i might take some flak for this but i think when it comes to reason men are more tuned into it. we are more or less programmed for this from birth

In America a lad went loopy (no previous form etc), climbed a tower and started picking off people with a snipers rifle. Autopsy revealed that he had a undiscovered very large tumour that was causing pressure in his head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

And for all those with guns in the house:

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

Quite interesting of the link between ownership and suicide - see Switzerland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

He did not kill his mother - that was confirmed yesterday!

I doubt we will ever get all the answers 🙁

I guess he was a bit miffed at something.

If he didnt have access to guns he'd have used a knife. He was obviously mentally unbalanced.

Owning a gun is one thing. Pulling the trigger on someone takes the same mentally leap as picking up a knife and actively using it.

Sure intimes of war shooting someone is easier and less personal than a knife however thats war- you are an ordinary person asked to make a mental leap for self-survival.

How many times a year do we have gun-massacres from LEGITIMATE gun owners here in the UK? Huh?

you are an ordinary person asked to make a mental leap for self-survival.

or perhaps you are a hapless pawn acting for the benefit of some 3rd party who couldn't care less if you live or die ?

I think killing 12 people from a car would be a bit tricky with a knife unless he was a very, very good thrower...

r perhaps you are a hapless pawn acting for the benefit of some 3rd party who couldn't care less if you live or die ?

Ah yes Afghanistan and Iraq.

There was a very interesting professor of some thing or other on Radio 4 last night. He was saying that people who go on killing sprees tend to fit one psychological profile and are always nearly men.

He was saying that basically the are quiet, unassuming men who at some point in their past have had their male sexual masculinity repressed, either through abuse, past partners or lack of. Basically over the years they feel more and more inadequate to a stage where they can’t take it any more and some thing for want of a better word makes them flip.

The end result is that they can not carry on with life, but the killing spree is all part of the suicide process in proving their masculinity to themselves before taking their own life.

All very interesting from a psychology point of view, but very sad for every one involved.

People don’t just go around killing people for the sake of it, its unfortunately some deeply seated psychological problem.

I had heard that he had an altrication with the taxi drivers the previous evening

He was saying that basically the are quiet, unassuming men who at some point in their past have had their male sexual masculinity repressed, either through abuse, past partners or lack of. Basically over the years they feel more and more inadequate

An altrication?!

Is that like an altercation but from someone living in Altringham?

Dunblane is really quite posh and definately not in the deprived category.

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have been reading a book on the Hungerford massacre in 1987.

the end has this bit

For contrary to popular opinion, there is little evidence of insanity among the majority of mass killers. In a forty-two-case sample study by the American criminologists Levin and Fox, only around one in five killers attempted to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. And of those who did, less than half would manage to convince a jury.

In their authoritative report Professors Levin and Fox went on to present a ‘composite profile’ of the multiple-victim killer. They came to the conclusion that the great majority of such killers were not insane; that, in layman’s terms, they were bad rather than mad: ‘He is typically a white male in his late twenties or thirties. In the case of simultaneous mass murder, he kills people he knows with a handgun or rifle; in serial crimes, he murders strangers by beating or strangulation. The specific motivation depends on the circumstances leading up to the crime, but it generally deals directly with either money, expediency, jealousy, or lust ... Finally, though the mass killer often may appear cold and show no remorse, and even deny responsibility for his crime, serious mental illness or psychosis is rarely present.’

The two academics were also able to identify a number of factors which, they believe, are consistent with almost every case history of an indiscriminate killer. First of all, they argue, there has been a life filled with frustration. Secondly, there has been a precipitating event, such as unemployment or divorce. Then there is access to and training in the use of firearms. And finally there has been a breakdown of what is referred to as ‘social controls’, such as occurs when a person moves to a new town or an important relationship breaks up.

So far all we know is the guy was an ordinary Joe Public who was a bit upset about a will that wasnt going his way. His solicitor (One of the murders)had given him some news he probably didnt want to hear.. He was single but had family etc (His brother was one of the guys killed - they dont know when he was killed as he was still in his home).

What does all of the above actually mean - Absolutely nothing.

Why do we try to understand everything. This type of incident happens every so often. In the grand scheme of things an incident like this averaged out probably only accounts for 2-3 deaths per year. There is no blame on gun culture as the guy had been in control of guns for 20yrs. He was a responsible owner of guns. If he hadnt had the guns he could as easily parked up outside a busy schoolyard at playtime and floored the accelorator. Or maybe through a few petrol bombs into a few classrooms.

I am thankfull that the guy shot himself because it saves us from the media circus of a trial and the end result is what I would want. Lets just give cumbria our best wishes (I am in cumbria), make sure all the people involved get the correct support and leave it at that.

You cannot attempt to understand something like this. By understanding it you normalise it. Imagine if we come to a conclusion that this guy flipped because he was under a particular level of stress. Does that mean that we then start worrying about everyone (And it would be 50% of the stw collective based on all the stress threads)that is remotely under stress

Dunno about men, but with teenage girls it can be as little as not liking mondays...

Quite an interesting book on Dunblane, and also how 'shooters' took the rap when in fact the guy really shouldn't have had a gun in the first place...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dunblane-Unburied-Sandra-Uttley/dp/1905553056

Stephen "Call Me The Crossbow Cannibal" Griffiths, must be well and truly gutted that he has been knocked off the headlines by another killer.

It must be devastating to find that, just when you think your moment of fame and notoriety has finally come, and you have the full glare of the media on you, that suddenly, you've been upstaged by another killer.

And the Crossbow Cannibal seemed so ready and willing to impress and horrify us all,
with his evilness...........****.