it shows the true cost of our membership
It's not the cost of membership, it's the cost of investments and programmes we've agreed to. We have shares in the EIB, contribute to Erasmus, Nigel Farage's pension, and a thousand other things all of which are mutual benefit to the UK and the EU27.
This notion that we're giving away free money is something that should have been put to bed two years ago. The UK has a symbiotic relationship with the EU. We pay in to EU programmes because it benefits us to do so FFS.
It's like cancelling your mobile phone contract halfway through, being surprised and annoyed that you're still liable for the remainder of the contract, and conveniently ignoring the fact that you've had an iPhone X and ten gig of data for the last year. Still, at least you'll be free to write letters to people, take back that control.
This is a straw man. Staying in the EU doesn’t have to equate to “do nothing,” there’s plenty of other things we could be doing. Why not remain and try to come up with something better instead?
This is one thing that has really annoyed me during the whole 'deal planning' thing, tabloids, and when it suits them successive governments have given us the impression that we're a powerless pawn at the Mercy of the EU. A decent party might admit that none of our mainstream parties have bothered to campaigning in European elections, which gave UKIP a huge leg up and effectively all we've done there for the last 5 years or so is act like pricks and tell the rest of Parliament we want no part of this.
For the OP, let me try to explain the 'backstop'. Before 1972, every country had its own taxes on imports, and rules on who it would let in. The Common Market, and then the EU, put all the member countries together, so there were no import taxes (customs duty) between them, and no restrictions on movement of their citizens - so within the EU we have 'soft' borders - the law changes, but crossing the border is easy. The full customs and immigration border between the EU and the rest of the world remained, a 'hard' border. The British and Irish Governments were able to make use of the soft border to reduce conflict in NI (the Good Friday Agreement), which among other things made the border not much more than a line on the map, with people from both sides crossing daily (like they do between, say, Belgium and France).
If the UK is out of the EU, and Ireland is in the EU, there will have to be a hard border somewhere. If it's between NI and Ireland, it messes up the Good Friday Agreement. If it's between NI and Britain, it's dividing the UK. The DUP in particular don't want it between NI and Britain, so I really don't understand why they support Leave. For some reason nobody in Government saw this coming. The politicians have put forward lots of ideas such as doing the customs checks and duty payments electronically, but there will still have to be physical checks somewhere to control smuggling and immigration. Since there has to be hard border, but it can't be in either of the only two places it could be, the problem is insoluble. So there's a fudge, leaving it to be sorted later. But "in case" (= because) it can't be sorted later, there's a backstop which says the UK stays in a customs union with the EU. Which, for that aspect of membership, is like not leaving, except that we no longer have any say over the rules. Since there's no solution to the fudge, the backstop will end up being used. The Leavers don't like this, because it means we haven't left properly, and we won't be able to negotiate our own trade deals. The Remainers (well, me at least) don't like the Deal either because we end up giving up our influence in the EU for not much or a negative benefit, but it's better than No Deal.
If the Deal isn't approved by Parliament, we could leave with no agreement about what happens (No Deal). This doesn't solve the Irish border problem at all, it leaves it for later (by default rather than by agreement) and with no backstop (so the risk of re-igniting the troubles in NI).
There is an obvious solution but since that's not what this thread is about I won't mention it.
Good summary, thank you.
If it’s between NI and Ireland, it messes up the Good Friday Agreement.
It's also illegal because of the withdrawal legislation.
In fairly simple terms.
Current deal, in EU, if you want to move for work to an EU country fine. you have to have a job in 3 months or you are kicked out.
May's deal you are allowed to spend no more than 90 days in any 6 month period in the schengen zone without a visa/etias depending on the small print to be agreed. You are not allowed to work without the appropriate visa (no alternative route accept Republic of Ireland and CTA).
Simple terms, you want to work as an MTB guide in the French alps, forget it. The French were very protective over who could work as a ski guide, outside the EU a British guides qualifications are worth nothing.
Want to retire to Spain, current deal fine, new deal, you will need to apply for a Spanish retirement visa.
EHIC cards will almost certainly not be valid unless an agreement is reached etc.
Now if Brexit was such a good idea why is Rees Mogg setting up in Dublin, why are various Brexiteers putting in hundreds of millions shorting British companies.
Now if Brexit was such a good idea why is Rees Mogg setting up in Dublin, why are various Brexiteers putting in hundreds of millions shorting British companies.
Because it is a good idea for them. If more people had the means to actually make more money as a result of Brexit (while making others worse off - if someone makes money others must lose) then the vote to leave would have been much higher than 52%
Why not leave and try to come up with something better instead?
People have listed a number of reasons above why leaving puts the UK in a worse position, because we will lose the trading advantages we have as part of the EU. You are suggesting we should abandon these real, concrete advantages, so we can "try" to come up with something better? And we will negotiate these advantageous new trade deals on our own against behemoths like the USA and China?
Let me think about your proposal...
That Liam Fox Tweet is amazing. What an utter tool.
That Liam Fox Tweet is amazing. What an utter tool.
Ahh don’t forget the ‘disgraced’ bit , gotta get the tools title right.
But the OPs question is right what is the ‘deal’
I dont think a transition period agreement and a bit of hope of a future something is actually a ‘deal’
A deal is normally something that has a desired and stateable outcome, I may be missing something but I’m not sure I’ve seen the real important bit on how we trade after the transition actually set in concrete.
Why would you have seen that DoD? This "deal/agreement" is only to set out the terms of our withdrawal from the EU (ie, how much we still need to pay to cover any pre-existing commitments, how long we can continue to trade on current terms under a transition agreement, and what to do in the event that a solution to having a hard border in NI cannot be found). Any negotiation on future trade deals will only start after we have left.
"Any negotiation on future trade deals will only start after we have left" .... both the EU and the Customs Union that we might be in if the backstop is implemented.
I’m not disagreeing but the reality is no deal has been agreed other than an extension with less rights of the current membership and no option to exit without agreement from the other party.
I just don’t think this really deserves the term ‘Deal’.
Can a mod spellcheck the title..
Please?
Its doin me ed in.
“In detailed discussion today the cabinet has agreed our collective position of the future of our negotiation with the EU”
What does this mean ?
Nothing whatsoever, as 5 minutes later half the cabinet had quit in protest over what a rubbish deal it is.
the only certainty in any of this, on 29th March without anything being done the UK crashes out the EU and Dover will collapse within hours. All those cross channel hauliers, there permits are revoked and UK trucks are banned from EU.
I may be missing something but I’m not sure I’ve seen the real important bit on how we trade after the transition actually set in concrete.
You've not missed anything. We don't. We need to start working that out after we've left. A glorious future awaits us trading with the rest of the world, we just need to start from scratch.
the only certainty in any of this, on 29th March without anything being done the UK crashes out the EU and Dover will collapse within hours.
Projections are that a 2 minute delay at Dover will result in 20 mile tailbacks inside of a day.
On trade
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth
Who is negotiating trade deals while we screw about
