[Closed] What is it about Michael Gove...

Derekpish,I was a plasterer for 20 years,not only that but I was shopfitting with the hours that entails...Teaching is harder. Sorry if that disagrees with your opinions about something you clearly understand little about,but every day a school day..( see what l did there)

duckman - Member
Derekpish,I was a plasterer for 20 years,not only that but I was shopfitting with the hours that entails...Teaching is harder. Sorry if that disagrees with your opinions about something you clearly understand little about,but every day a school day..( see what l did there)

derekfish - what do you actually do in the private sector?

Ha!

Teachers are a breed? Oh, do piss off.

If you are going to troll,it is bad form to forget sweeping generalizations you have just made. I was challenging your claim they do little work,but feel free to vent.

They wouldn't know how to work their arse off, other than polishing a seat with it.

It depresses me...on one hand you have people who've made an incalculable contribution to culture who shuffle off this mortal coil way too soon and on the other you have an army of colossal helmets who exist simply to make life slightly more crappy for the rest of us, yet they stubbornly refuse to do the decent thing and at least have themselves sterilized before they breed. The latter far outweigh the former, sadly.

You'll note I resisted the childish replacement of the letter 'd' in your name as retaliation, that's what us grown ups do that teachers don't.

I was going to engage with derekfish until;

[i]I actually don't care, how hard or easy it is[/i]

which rather undermined his whole 'they have it easy' argument previously.

so I think I'll leave him to his hatred of humans he's never met because of their choice of career. I guess it makes a refreshing change from hating people because of their nationality or race, for some.

Gove delivers bad medicine. Well it could be medicine or it could be poison depending on your point of view but the point is he is not the first or the last education secretary to piss off the profession. What makes him particularly odious (disliked more than anyone before him?) to almost everyone on every side of the political divide is an almost impossible void of likeable human traits. There can't be a man or woman who has ever seen him on telly and thought, 'now there's a bloke I'd like a pint with'. He is also missing any vestige of the sort of personality you would look for in your ideal boss. Everyone can take a little bit of bad medicine if you have a tiny bit of respect (even if its grudging) for the person dishing it out.

Glad to see the teacher bashing mob are out, they are always so funny and so well informed.

Michael Gove cuts £100m from ALL Sixth Form colleges whilst £62m spent on just NINE 16-19 Free Schools.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/exclusive-alevel-courses-closed-as-michael-gove-cuts-100m-from-sixthform-colleges-9102755.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/exclusive-alevel-courses-closed-as-michael-gove-cuts-100m-from-sixthform-colleges-9102755.html[/url]

[i]The college leaders are also incensed that the Govern ment has spent £62m setting up nine new free schools, offering education for 16 to 19-year-olds, which between them have just 1,557 pupils - less than the average number enrolled in just one sixth-form college. They estimate that the Government is spending more than £39,616 for every student at the free schools, compared to just £4,000 on those at sixth-form colleges[/i]

I reckon at £40k/student there's a good chance of a good outcome for those 1557 pupils.

Lets' hope the same level of funding is rolled out to all after it's established that spending 10 times as much money generally helps produce better outcomes, eh.

I reckon at £40k/student there's a good chance of a good outcome for those 1557 pupils.

In the spirit of evenhandedness, the sort of analytical ability seen in that article (read before) is not doing the anti-govers many favours. Those numbers only stack up if they pulled the place down again after the first year. 'Setting up' means constructing buildings etc etc that will hopefully be there a shed load longer than one cohort of students so those numbers are meaningless. They are trying to compare setting up colleges from bare earth at £40K per place with the annual maintenance of an existing college at £4K per place - apples and pears. This does not mean I don't think the idea is bobbins!

Lets' hope the same level of funding is rolled out to all after it's established that spending 10 times as much money generally helps produce better outcomes, eh.

If only it was that simple. The one experiment that we have all been watching over the past 50 years or so, is the "lets spend more" approach. The results have hardly been that impressive. Not that this defends the specific policy noted above - it doesn't - but spending does not guarantee results. That is established.

[i]the "lets spend more" approach[/i]

Given the comparisons being made with the private sector maybe we should try the 'let's spend enough' approach?

Public funding per pupil has never matched private and yet there's a constistent approach by Gove (and others before him) to suggest that it's teachers or the syllabus that are at the heart of the problem.

If primary school class sizes were halved, secondary schools had selective entry and funding was set as level with the private sector then that would, without doubt, deliver a result on a par (adjusted for various social and 'pre-school' environmental issues).

Yes, all teachers need to be reflective and understand what best practice is and this is a contributory factor in pupil and school success but it's not the biggest issue.

Perhaps it's a combination of issues?

Many of the simple private v public state comparisons are flawed anyway.

But as the OECD analysis showed today, the poorest 10% in Shanghai perform as well, if not better than, the most privileged 20% in UK and US. As I have said many times, money does not buy you academic success.

[i]money does not buy you academic success. [/i]

no, it's as much down to parental commitment and pupil motivation as an adequately funded school and competent teaching.

The issue of funding always leaves the state system playing catch up when it comes to facilities and, most importantly, the time a teacher can spend with each individual child.

The thing is, there has been a huge improvement in teaching and standards; there's simply no comparison between the experience I had at school and that of my children. I also think I received a much better education than many in my parents' generation, and they had better than their parents.

[quote it's [s]as much [/s] more down to parental commitment and pupil motivation

The rest helps though !

Many of the simple private v public state comparisons are flawed anyway.
But as the OECD analysis showed today, the poorest 10% in Shanghai perform as well, if not better than, the most privileged 20% in UK and US. As I have said many times, money does not buy you academic success.

but not anywahere near as flawed as comparing Uk and Shanghai

Yes, good job none of us do it AA isn't it?!?! We'll be comparing the UK and Sweden next. Blimey!

there has been a huge improvement in teaching and standards; there's simply no comparison between the experience I had at school and that of my children.

Really? How are you measuring that?

So whats your point THM. If increasing funding to the same level as the private schools wouldnt help what is the problem. I can be pretty confident in saying the teachers are no better but the support per pupil is much lower. How does the state sector improve on this with no new funding.

Oh and at least sweden is in europe but then taking your view point that schools within the uk cannot be compared I suppose your right in your world. You're wrong in saying Uk schools cannot be compared though.

It's a very simple one - money alone doesn't guarantee success, There are lots of factors involved.

Such as? Especially interested in those that ccan be improved without investment.

It's a very simple one - money alone doesn't guarantee success

It is bloody useful though.

There are lots of factors involved.

Yup, like being able to select pupils based on ability. Although the biggest single determining factor in a childs educational performance is the attitude and support of the parents.

As an aside my new favourite Goveism was when he was critical of the holiday companies increasing prices during periods of high demand. So that's a Tory Minister who doesn't like free market economics.

there has been a huge improvement in teaching and standards; there's simply no comparison between the experience I had at school and that of my children.

Really? How are you measuring that?

Subjectively, I can see what they're doing and I remember what I did. Objectively, the achievements of my kids' cohorts outweigh those of mine.

The secondary school I attended recently got 63% getting 5A*-C (inc English and maths), but was half that (without English and maths) when I attended in the early 90s. My eldest starts there in September.

My brother is a teacher as was my mother, I would say my brother works a lot harder than my mother ever did, I do think teaching has changed from that era. The nostalgia that many view the past with is just completely ridiculous.

Many employers also seem to have forgotten that they used to train people to do jobs, now they take none of the responsibility and just whinge and moan blaming everyone else. It is just normal Torie boy entitlement, they whine on and on about other sections of society's entitlements, but then demand far more than anyone else.

I'm not reading through all the posts to see if it's been mentioned yet but has anyone brought up his wife yet? Sarah Vine, Daily Mail writer....

She's a thoroughly odious character and spreads hate and conflict through her daily mail filth and twitter hate campaigns. they are so well made for each other.

According to a UKCES report, employers who recruit school leavers think they're reasonably well-prepared for work:

[url= http://www.ukces.org.uk/news/Press-releases/2014/Jan/SKILLS-SHORTAGES-ACCELERATE ]Only a minority of business are prepared to give education leavers their first job, but when they do, they find their new recruits are generally well-prepared for work.[/url]

If we're all rubbish teachers, it must be a really easy job.

If anyone fancies taking my 'Environmental Sustainability in the Construction Industry' lesson in a minute feel free.
I've got a lovely class of half asleep disinterested 16yr olds waiting for you 🙂

It is just normal Torie boy entitlement, they whine on and on about other sections of society's entitlements, but then demand far more than anyone else.

Really? So how about making it much easier for heads to sack poor performing teachers and introducing rigorous and regular testing to teachers. Those Tory boys Ed Balls and Tristram Hunt hide their political allegiances well. The guardian was commenting on the merits of Hunt's ideas yesterday just as the good old progressive NUT described them as

"Utterly pointless....another unnecessary hurdle.....bureaucratic nightmare...."

Quelle surprise. Change, us??? Bloody disgrace to have unqualified teachers and bloody disgrace to introduce better qualifications and training, In fact, it's just a bloody disgrace. So MSP is that the usual [s]tory[/s] NUT whining?

"Bind their kings in chains, and their nobles in fetters of iron.."

One part of the King James authorised I'm more than happy to bring back, if we can extend it to ministers who aren't actually nobility (yet).

(Ninja Spelling Edit :-))

I see buttons have been pushed. 🙂

Something else that's being missed around the CE is most of the nice middle class children taking it have been extensively coached at the parents expense to do it (in my experience). I'm not sure how this translates into improving standards in neglected, deprived areas but hey, Gove's just the ideas man, it's those lazy teachers that need to get on with the 'doing'..

Time for teachers to join in.

They wouldn't know how to work their arse off, other than polishing a seat with it.

It's a common wailing of right-wingers when times are tough. "Why isn't it easier for me to sack someone?"

Those 20 years breaking my back as a tradesman on site, giving me the knowledge and experience to pass on to learners felt really easy and not at all like hard work.

I work with an ex-Para (multiple Northern Ireland tours, plus both Iraq wars) who'd disagree with teachers not knowing hard work, too.

It's a common wailing of right-wingers when times are tough. "Why isn't it easier for me to sack someone?"

The thing is, competency procedures to get rid of crap teachers exist, and they're used. It's only people who believe what they read in the papers who think they don't.

Sadly, they've been used to get rid of loads of experienced (expensive) teachers and replace them with (cheap) NQTs.

I know and how on earth did those right wingers (the ones whose ideas I referred to) end up in high office in the Labour Party. It beggars belief deadly doesn't it?

Still in the NUTs own fact (sic) sheets it does note that, "spending on education was important but less so than other factors" and that, “The bottom line is that the quality of a school system cannot exceed the quality of its teachers.”

So they (NUT) should be all in favour of regular testing and training for teachers!!

The [?] education secretary [? ?] said regular re-licensing of teachers would allow the worst ones to be sacked whilst helping others to receive more training and development.

Fill in the blanks yourself! Clue, the first ? begins with S and ends with W.

Problem is if you sack teachers you have to employ more and good teachers are very thin on the ground.
So THM you must have missed my question on the last page. Can you give me some examples of how to improve schools and close the state private gap that wont need extra investment?

“The bottom line is that the quality of a school system cannot exceed the quality of its teachers.”

So they (NUT) should be all in favour of regular testing and training for teachers!!

Well that's one interpretation of that statement however you do appear to be assuming that the quality of the school system is being limited by it's teachers which is not what that statement says.

I dunno thm, you're directing that at me like I'm a fan of the Labour Party or something? What are you on about?

Make teaching harder will just make the massive losses of trained teachers from the system worse.

I think we spend 75% of our budget on salaries; probably more now as we've had our budget cut and have attempted to make as many savings as possible through non-staff cuts, though we've not been replacing people who leave.

As a result of the budget cuts, each member of teaching staff has one extra hour of contact time per week, and our average class size is up. Will this increase or decrease standards?

Actually, I'd be interested in knowing how many hours contact time a teacher in an independent school has each week, and what class sizes.

Not at all. I am not attacking teachers. Why would I?

I am surprised that the body who claims to be protecting teachers (their tagline) is immediately against the labour party's proposals though. Surprised? That's the wrong word really. 😉

Hello THM. Any chance you could answer the question you keep ignoring?

The thing is, competency procedures to get rid of crap teachers exist, and they're used. It's only people who believe what they read in the papers who think they don't.

So sounds like Tristram Hunt will be just as bad a Gove then. These bloody politicians.......when will THEY learn?

THM, for what it's worth your posts are incredibly hard to follow. You've used !! and everything. Perhaps slow down

As with our students AA, it's often better to let people do their own independent research first. It's not beyond the imagination of anyone in the profession to identify way of improvement that do not require added investment. Globally, people achieve considerable success with considerably fewer monetary resources. Money helps, yes, but as the NUT say (since you may not believe me) it's less important than other factors.

Such as? You seem to be struggling here.

C'mon AA you don't spoon feed your students do you?

I am surprised that the body who claims to be protecting teachers (their tagline) is immediately against the labour party's proposals though.

You're surprised that a union is against proposals that will make their members' working conditions poorer?

If all you're going to do is constantly test them, spoon-feeding's all you'll have time for...

It's not beyond the imagination of anyone in the profession to identify way of improvement that do not require added investment.

Here you go:

* Reduced testing - this'll save money;
* Fewer inspections - this'll save money;
* Scrap the free schools policy - this'll save money;
* Fewer changes of curriculum - this'll save money;
* No pointless schemes to register/licence teachers - this'll save money.

I've heard that before on here pondo....

Well mike, When you listen to right wingers 😉 like Tristram Hunt saying

"If you're not a motivated teacher - passionate about your subject, passionate about being in the classroom - then you shouldn't really be in this profession.

"So if you're not willing to engage in relicensing to update your skills then you really shouldn't be in the classroom," he added.

Perhaps I should feel some sympathy for the NUTs views?

Edit for x post. Well that rules out both Tories and labour then mike. How do the lib Dems stack up?

on AA you don't spoon feed your students do you?

i prefer that they dont write poorly thought out bollocks with no evidence or even suggestions in the way of back up either. Come on can YOU tell me how you would close the private-state gap with no additional investment or will you just keep wriggling?

If you're a motivated teacher - passionate about your subject, passionate about being in the classroom - then you don't need relicensing to force you to update your skills.

i prefer that they dont write poorly thought out bollocks with no evidence or even suggestions in the way of back up either.

Hey, me too! Perhaps there's not such a difference between state and independent schools after all 🙂

I've heard that before on here pondo....

anagallis_arvensis - Member
i prefer that they dont write poorly thought out bollocks with no evidence

+1 fully agree.

Which is why I am ignoring the question that you keep putting into my mouth. It's written poorly with no evidence. I have stated and repeated that [u]money does not guarantee academic success[/u], and that there are [u]more important factors involved.[/u] This has been agreed by other posters and outside evidence (OECD, PISA tests, the NUT etc). That is different from the point that you seem to suggesting that I am making. So I will keep wriggling with these august bodies quoted above in the meantime. 😉

One of my favourite reminders is - read the question. Answer it, not the one you would like it to be, or think that it is.

pondo - Member
I've heard that before on here pondo....

And what was your answer then?

Avoid those who think that is the answer. The overriding message given at 6th form parents evening this Saturday (shucks) was that the key factor determining the ability to achieve the top grades was the amount of [u]independent reading. [/u]

What are these more important factors and how do we improve on them?

The overriding message given at 6th form parents evening this Saturday (shucks) was that the key factor determining the ability to achieve the top grades was the amount of independent reading.

That's all the problems solved, then. Somebody needs to tell state schools about this, because it's probably never occurred to them before.

I am sure it has. That's why there are many very good ones. Any good teacher knows that whatever sector they teach in. And it's essentially free and available to all.

Jesus you really are floundering now. So I spread the word to parents that sixth formers should read a bit and it'll all be good. What about the parents who dont come to parents evenings or cant speak english of which I have loads?

it's essentially free and available to all

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jul/12/library-campaigners-1000-closures-2016 ]It's a shame libraries are closing.[/url]

The overriding message given at [i]independent school's[/i] 6th form parents evening this Saturday (shucks) was that the key factor determining the ability [i]of students at an independent school with small class sizes[/i] to achieve the top grades was the amount of independent reading.

You missed out some detail, so I added it back in.

Floundering me? 😀

Several problems - reading does not make "it all good" but equally....

A [u]little bit [u] doesn't count. To hit the highest marks and achieve entry to the top Unis you need to read A LOT. There is little getting away from that. If nothing else that is the best prep for when you are there.

Yes, if parents show no interest, that is a major problem. Indeed as we have mostly agreed this, not money, is probably the single biggest issue.

It is a great shame that libraries are closing indeed.

Plenty of pupils in small classes who don't work hard and don't read do not succeed so the edit didn't really help. But thanks anyway.

Which is why I am ignoring the question that you keep putting into my mouth. It's written poorly with no evidence. I have stated and repeated that money does not guarantee academic success, and that there are more important factors involved.

Err correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that it was the answer to a question that required the evidence, not the question.

You should spend a day at my school and then go and spend a day at a tough school, then maybe you would stop posting such laughable drivel. So how do we improve outcomes for those from difficult homes?

I will then. You are wrong. 😉 or at least talking at cross purposes. As for evidence I have suggested the sources but prefer not to spoon feed. 😉

AA was attempting to pick me up on something that I didn't say, Since the repeated question was based on a false premise, I chose to ignore it.

Anyway lunch and football match now.....

anagallis_arvensis - Member
You should spend a day at my school and then go and spend a day at a tough school, then maybe you would stop posting such laughable drivel.

A very good idea for everyone. Thanks. Perhaps even the Secretary of State and his shadow?

It is a great shame that libraries are closing indeed.

We seem to get on OK without a town crier too.

[img] [/img]

5thElefant - Member
It is a great shame that libraries are closing indeed.

Why? They're obsolete.

Ill explain this to my son on Saturday - we cant go down to the library this weekend to get some more books and see whats new on their discovery wall instead we will be staying at home and watching TV

and tell all the people there using the computers to get off and leave

in fact your comment gets bonus ignorance points as its National Library Day this weekend and we were planning to go and meet the Gruffalo
http://www.hounslow.info/libraries/promotions/national-libraries-day/

Really? So how about making it much easier for heads to sack poor performing teachers and introducing rigorous and regular testing to teachers.

Would that encourage employers to take some responsibility in training their staff to do the job instead of offloading all costs and responsibility to the state? Like I said right wingers whinge about state spending and entitlement, but by god do they expect all their needs to be met.

Why? They're obsolete.

We seem to get on OK without a town crier too.

MSP. - these are proposals from the Labour Party. Originally from Ed Balls and more recently from Tristram Hunt. These are expectations from two of the most senior Labour Party politicians and from two people who have their eyes on the top job. So not just RW then is it?

Apparently the Labour Party would argue yes to your first question and indeed Hunt argues that those who disagree shouldn't be in the profession at all.

I never mentioned those proposals, or anything about them when describing right wing entitlement, I don't know why you think they had any relevance in replying to my post on page 4, someone else might describe them as a straw man.

5thElefant - Member

It is a great shame that libraries are closing indeed.

Why? They're obsolete.

Another classic piece of moronic IDS-esque, utterly disjointed thinking so beloved of this administration. Appropriate when this thread was originally started about idiotically ideological tory ministers with an inflated idea of their own place, yet a fragile grasp of their actual brief

So at the same time as you've got the bald, god-bothering, military reject half-wit saying that from now on the new Universal Credit will be done entirely online (and it seems to going as brilliantly well as we've come to expect from big government IT projects), then what else should we do….?

Hmmmmmm … oh, oh, oh… I know…. We'll close down all the places where people, say from poorer backgrounds, or the elderly, who won't have internet connections at home, might be able to go for this valuable public access. We'll shut all the libraries

Genius!!!! 🙄