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Difficult one but for me a clear diagnosed condition for an otherwise good employee would have a much higher threshold for time off than someone with regular Mondayitis and was a poor employee.
I love the I can't help getting ill type comments which is often true but when it's repeat bouts of back sickness, headaches, Flu, being under the weather I usually point out they maybe need to look at lifestyle factors such as sleep, diet, alcohol and exercise (assuming they've had any underlying medical condition ruled out).
Bottom line though is if you aren't in work you aren't fulfilling your contract regardless of the reason and the employer isn't a charity.
To the original question if an employee is heading towards 500 points on the Bradford factor without an underlying condition and assuming I'd taken them through the stages of absence management I'd be looking at dismissal but with all these things specific circumstances are really important an can trump any numerical approach.
Always communicate as much as you can though (not just when they are ill!) as you never know whats going on. I had a chap working for me who was diligent and conscientious to a fault but over the course of a year started taking more and more time off with more and more outrageous reasons. Eventually, with some help from the company and some third party counselling which the company paid for, it turned out he was in the middle of a significant breakdown. He spent almost a year off work and another year on a planned easing back into work. Thankfully he’s OK now and actually has a much healthier balance. As this persons manager and friend I was blown away by the amount of support the company provided, not just in time off but providing (organising, managing, funding) professional (external unbiased) help.
this, speak to them one to one - from there decide if you need to highlight to HR. HR will then advise you on steps towards attendance management as per company policy. Dont ask a bike forum how to manage your business.
Invariably HR will get it wrong but its their job to get it wrong - not yours. You get it wrong and your likely to end up on the end of procedural management.
We don't get paid for the first 30 hours of sick. Thought it pretty Dickensian but it's a good incentive for the pee takers. Does lead to bugs being circulated though and am interested how it pans out when we have a number of covid cases, as we seem to have now.
have they got young kids?
I had never ever had a sick day, not one, till i had kids.
Them and their little mates are germ farms
and the employer isn’t a charity.
Mine is...it say so at the bottom of all our email sigs...
Many years ago I worked at the Borg Warner gearbox factory in Sydney. We got 10 days sick leave a year and if you didn't take it you got paid 10 extra days!
A place I worked for in NZ had a similar policy - you had ten sick days a year, after that no pay and they didn't roll over. The year ticked over in summer, so loads of folk would be "sick" towards the end when they knew they would get paid, and get a new allowance soon...
Ours uses the Bradford score. It is a useful tool but not as a basis for policy.
I've a lad that I've managed to offload from my team after he's had nearly 40 unsanctioned days off in a working year. We're landscapers, he's a labourer (albeit very green to the role) and he seems to have a bewildering array of personal and social issues. Of all his time off, I think about a quarter of it is related to a sprained wrist, the rest is arguments with his girlfriend and such like. It has been suggested, on more than one occasion, that he should seek counselling. This company does not offer any sick pay, just SSP after 4 days continued absence.
On a side note, I'm always tickled by a lass in a previous job asking the boss how many days sick leave she had remaining for her year. Good one!
Some people do get ill-er than others.
Yep, had colleagues who just seem to get ill all the time, others go decades without so much as a day off. Genetics / lifestyle.
There's a lot to unpick here. Folk can't help being ill, they can help in not taking the piss.
This isn't America, I've had friends in the US tell me that they're going to book a day off sick because they've run out of holidays and this seemingly isn't unusual.
General rule is 3 instances within a 12 month period.
This is very common, and it's commonly misunderstood.
This sort of policy isn't "three strikes and disciplinary," rather it's a trigger for an employer to investigate further. This isn't necessarily a negative thing, a chunk of it is arse covering. If you're off with work-related stress (say) and work ignore it then they're potentially in the crap. Are you getting migraines because you need an eye test? Is there an underlying chronic condition your employer needs to consider? Or, yes of course, is your recurring back problem wholly related to you not being able to get it off the bed after a Sunday night skinful?
I've been bitten by this. I was off at the start of a week with either a cold or flu, felt better so came back into work midweek then relapsed so was off again at the end of the same week. In diligently dragging myself back to work I'd created two separate incidences of absence. One other day off in the surrounding two years (three periods in any rolling 12 months) and I found myself in front of HR. "What happened?" I had a cold. "Is it likely to reoccur?" God knows, it's a cold. Probably? "Is there anything we can do to help?" Do you have the cure for the common cold? No, then. "Thanks, bye!"
From a HR point of view I'd have been better off skiving on the Wednesday than dragging my snotty carcass back into work before I was fully recovered, but ultimately they weren't fussed. They were checking in, is everything OK, yes it is, OK then.
Dont ask a bike forum how to manage your business.
I am not asking anyone how to manage my business. If I had been doing that I would have asked a very different question. I am merely curious at this stage.
I'm no HR person but I do kind of touch on this doing other consultancy work. I personally don't agree with it, but lots of employers seem to have the Bradford factor embedded somewhere within sickness absence procedures.
https://www.breathehr.com/en-gb/bradford-factor-calculator
Edit: missed that this had been mentioned already.
So in my example above, if I'd had the week off with flu my Bradford index would be 5. When I came back in on the Wednesday - so less time off overall - it'd be 16. If I'd had three days off and dragged myself in on the Tuesday and Thursday, it'd be 27.
Are people actually paid to come up with this shit? I'm in the wrong line of work. I propose the Cougar Scale: if you're genuinely ill, keep your disease-ridden arse at home rather than infecting half the building whilst boasting about how you haven't had a day off sick in twenty years.
Piss taking annoys me but so do people who come in to work when they are ill. Well done trooper! Thanks to you and the air-con ten people will be off in the next week or so. Just so you can pull the “I’ve never had a day off sick” card.
I need that Like button again.
So our instance has a Bradford score of 560.
So our instance has a Bradford score of 560.
Again completely useless without context though.
That might be incredibly reasonable time to be off .... Or it might be incredibly unreasonable !
That might be incredibly reasonable time to be off …. Or it might be incredibly unreasonable !
I get that.
completely useless without context though.
as the Bradford factor is spells of sickness squared, times total days off, and only integer values can be used, we have the following options.
1 instance of 560 days - not possible as that is more than a year
2 instances totalling 140 days - possible but unlikely
3 instances - 560 not divisible by 9, so not possible
4 instances totalling 35 days - most likely
5 instances or more - 560 not divisible by 25, 36, 49 etc.
So 7 working weeks off (assuming a 5 day work week) over 4 separate instances.
Of course that could be 1 badly broken leg and 3 hangovers, or 4 sneaky holidays, or anything in between...
I used to work in a household name manufacturing company that brought in a new rule of two absences in a rolling twelve month period lead to step up the warning progression verbal, first written, second written, dismissal.
I haven't had a sick day in the last ten years that I can recall but I soon left them.
There’s also a better culture in my place now, post-Covid, that you stay home if you have a cold. Much better than those times when brave souls (myself included) would venture in to the office and spread their germs.
I think in the case the OP is describing I guess its useful to know if this pattern relates to the last year or so, or the last decade. There was quite a consistent effort to make the case against the culture presentee-ism in the workplace as the start of the pandemic so someone might well feel they are acting in everyone's best interests not to come to work if they're ill in anyway, rather than just when they're too ill to be able to come to work at all.
Are you from P&O HR?
Piss taking annoys me but so do people who come in to work when they are ill. Well done trooper! Thanks to you and the air-con ten people will be off in the next week or so. Just so you can pull the “I’ve never had a day off sick” card.
My old manager, used to do TTs at quite a high level (solid sub 20/50 minute rider) and if he spotted sick people in his team, he'd send them home (via telephone). Even used to get other managers at his level to send sick people home...
There's some horrid employers out there...
16 years ago mrs_oab went from model employee to multiple sicknesses over 18 months. Some were a fortnight off (pnumonia). After 18 months hunting, doctors finally diagnosed her.
Fwiw, I don't think you can say/suggest any limit. You can know your employees and create a culture of honesty and trust - support where needed and getting the job done with some pride.
I’m going to vote for “JohnDrummer” the winner so far as he bravely goes into work whilst ill only stopping when he’s blind,
That’s not what I said. I’ve been working from home pretty much 100% since Covid-19 so I haven’t been [i]going in to work [/i] so no [i]need [/i] to take time off, even when I [i]was [/i] ill
One of Mrs Pondo's colleagues takes loads of time off (was ill during an Ofsted inspection - surprise!), and has been off for best part of the last two weeks at a time when everyone is really, really struggling - she put pictures of herself at a wedding this weekend on social media, I suspect the greetings on her return will notvbe cordial.
My employer's ace - there's a member of my team who's been off long-term since before I joined two and a half years ago, never met them but they should be having a phased return shortly.
Cougar the Bradford factor is pretty useful as it penalised people with lots of short term absence, but it should only be used as a trigger to ask questions exactly as you describe, it's actually more for HR to manage managers, there's no ambiguity about when it's appropriate to check what's happening and provide support or take action. It should not be a disciplinary tool based on breaching a threshold.
I think it's also important to consider colleagues when someone else is off a lot regardless of the underlying cause. It puts extra stress on them with the uncertainty and having to pick up the extra work. Also puts a lot of extra stress on supervisors and managers both in work and emotional terms. For me it would be unlikely I would keep someone on the books who had been off for more than a year, either we don't need them (so redundancy would be appropriate, preferably enhanced) or we've covered the role with another individual.
For me it would be unlikely I would keep someone on the books who had been off for more than a year, either we don’t need them
Shit out of luck if you were to as one of my past colleagues did and have a stroke in the office with work stress as a major contributor....
Was out of work recovering for near 2 years and was a highly successful and key part of the team when he came back.
But there is that old saying .... Drop dead they will replace you tomorrow.
This isn’t America, I’ve had friends in the US tell me that they’re going to book a day off sick because they’ve run out of holidays and this seemingly isn’t unusual.
In the US theres no legal entitlement to paid holidays at all - so its quite possible to start the year having run out of holidays. If people do get paid holidays they're lucky if its 10 days a year - half the statutory amount UK employees get. People's healthcare, if they have any, is provided by their employer too. So you might want to swing the lead by taking time off sick - but not so sick you actually need medicine. Theres no legal requirement for US employers to pay sick leave.
Not read it all - has anyone said Bradford factor yet?
Just to rock the boat a little... Sometimes you just need to be able to wave the white flag and take a mental health / physical illness day off work without being persecuted for it.
That’s very true. A ‘duvet day’
Not read it all – has anyone said Bradford factor yet?
No
I think I've been on here too long.
I saw the topic on mobile and correctly guessed who posted it.
That's not good.
15 individual days off a year has the same Bradford factor as a full year (220 working days). Just saying. I'd look at the 2x2 hi/lo performer and hi/lo sickness. you'll find the hi performers who still take hi sickness. These people may now be able to work from home. I haven't bothered to put in much sick leave, although this week I am still wfh and on COVID leave.
This topic is one of the quickest ways to cause arguments and divide a workplace! Such a minefield depending upon the makeup of the workforce and the type of work.
At my old job some people were in what was called the "old contract" that gave 6 months full sick pay per year. Mine had 9 weeks but others only got 2. We also had the Bradford scoring system too, 3 in a 12 month period triggered a meeting which always resulted in a written warning.
There was one colleague who would always go sick with something hard to diagnose every October, just before our busiest period and would always return every March after 'recuperating' with family in Portugal! She did this for the whole 10 years she was there and of course it would always be a phased return. We still don't know to this day how she got away with it for so long, must have had dirt on one of the managers. Lots of other people would take the odd 2-3 days and end up with written warnings, sanctions etc. But I have to say that whenever anyone had a major issue (cancer, mental health, death in the family) they would allow you more time than you were entitled to, check up on you and give you support if required. I experienced this when I went through a mental breakdown due to various issues, some at work and others in private, and I saw the other side of things then. Had 3 months off on full pay, a phased return and paid days off for any medical appointments or coaching sessions I needed. The boss who was nicknamed Cruella De Ville was amazing throughout and I saw it happen to others who went through cancer and the loss of a young son.
So to answer the original question: depends on the circumstances and the individual in question. Personally I'd say around 10-15 days a year would be pretty normal if they were in 2-3 groups. Lots of single days is just taking the piss!
Seems to be mostly sports injuries at my workplace. Netball is pretty vicious for a non contact sport it would appear.
I am either seen as a pisstaker or rubbish mountain biker 🤔
We also get a fair amount of work related strains and muscle problems due to the nature of the work.
Netball is pretty vicious for a non contact sport it would appear.
Having to stop dead when the ball arrives on hard ground will ruin joints and muscles very quickly.
Being off sick definitely depends on the work environment and nature of job. If the job and pay is good and the environment nice enough I've found people have little to no time off sick and will endeavour to come in with mild flu/ colds etc and plough through. Before I WFH hardly anyone was ever off sick in our office whereas the wife's workplace (NHS rest bite care facility) was a carousel of staff sickness and astounded me with how many staff were off at least once a month if not two or three times a month (for many years this included the wife) plus a large number of long term sick staff....many of which were blagging it (or so we believe with good reason). The simple reason for this was low pay and very challenging conditions. Most staff there were very beleaguered and run down or the sheer mundanity of night shifts with hardly anything to do just got too much.
It also didn't help the cause that the NHS staff got full paid sick leave for months and months, so many staff simply think why not take the time as it won't affect the salary.
My field (engineering for small employers) although the pay, conditions and work satisfaction were good enough the employers tended not to support sick pay so any time off was at your cost and this was probably a factor in the low rates of sickness.
It also didn’t help the cause that the NHS staff got full paid sick leave for months and months, so many staff simply think why not take the time as it won’t affect the salary.
I worked for a couple of years in our local NHS, running a small IT Team. I halved the sickness rate. Mainly because not only did I not take any (unlike the previous Manager), but the first time someone was sick and came back I did a 'return to work' interview.
To say it caused a shock was an understatement. Put a good 'line in the sand'.
But, as someone above said, if you're properly ill then totally supportive and when one of my team needed an (horrible) operation, I made sure that she only came back with her GP's 'blessing'.
I’ve been at my current job for 19 years.
I’ve spoken to many other employees who have been issued written warnings for taking 2x single days off in a 12 month period.
Yet, when i fell in the yard a few years ago and ****ed my leg up, they were brilliant, i was off for 22 weeks, my manager called me every week to check how i was and I didn’t get any grief at all.
I am hardly ever off work/don’t get customer complaints though.
Some of the people who complained about being warned were piss takers.
I wonder if employees who get customer complaints/low standard of work are the ones who get (more) grief for being off.
I've been really fortunate with my health and went about 10 years without a day off. Then a few years ago a had a car crash that saw me take two days off. A few weeks later my back 'went' quite spectacularly. I was off Monday and Tuesday, went back Wednesday but could hardly move so was off again on Thursday and Friday. I could have self certified for 5 days but as I went back on the Wednesday it counted as two absences. These combined with my car crash made three short term absences, triggered a Absence Management process and sent me off down a path of HR interrogation and warning.
That made me quite cross and genuinely made me wonder why I bothered taking pride in my good attendance. My employer placed no value whatsoever on 10 years of absence free employment.
Anyway, I got COVID, ended up in hospital and had a month off. That showed them!
I saw the topic on mobile and correctly guessed who posted it.
Yeah and I am asking about the same employee.
PreCOVID - My place in a fit of insanity (probably to be "fair" to the factory workforce) came out and said that if you worked in the office but had the means to work from home, if you were mildly ill you were not allowed to work from home, you had to call in sick.
2 things happened:
1) loads of ill people came into the office and gave their lovely germs to the rest of the office.
2) Sickness sky rocked. Because there were more ill people and they had to call in sick.
This policy was quietly forgotten about 3 months later.