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Assuming there are no underlying health issues that they have notified their employer about yet they just seem to get one illness after another.
what kind of job?
what kind of illnesses.
I've taken 5-6 sick days in the last 20 years, all in one year 2 years ago.
very difficult question.
what are the stresses? dull job or mentally challenging,
General rule is 3 instances within a 12 month period.
At our place, when you hit that you need to have an informal chat with your manager to go through the reasons.
I'd say a year is reasonable. If they keep getting ill maybe there is something underlying they do not yet know about.
i was off sick twice last year - 2 days when i had my first COVID jab and 5 days later in the year when i caught COVID.
Prior to that - 5 days for an Op on my leg in 2018.
Some people do get ill-er than others.
I don't think there's a fixed period of time in a given year that's reasonable/unreasonable. Depends on circumstances. Is it just this year, have previous years been better? What's the impact been?
It's probably worth having an informal conversation with them to see if there's anything else going on.
Do they have kids?
Anyone with kids can expect to be out for at least one full week in Q1 of any year from the point at which the kids start nursery until they get to 8 or 9.
I'm just coming off the back of a cold brought into the house by my girlfriends daughter.
I had a few days last month from illness brought home by one of my kids.
Also, dunno if you've noticed, but global pandemic is making everyone twitchy. A lot of minor sniffles that 3 years ago i'd have gone to the office and done a full day, i now stay at home (but i can do 100% of my job from home).
I’d say a year is reasonable.
Yeah, if you take off more than a year in a year, that's definitely unreasonable!
In previous jobs it was a rolling 6 month percentage. If absence reached a certain level (IIRC it was maybe 6 or 8%??) then an informal discussion was made. Sometimes that discussion wasn’t made if a big illness/accident happened (eg broken leg) as it skewed the results but it did pick up people who were constantly taking one or two days off.
Only real problem we had were students who took a lot of Saturdays off when we hired them to work Saturdays 🙄🙄
I was off sick 10 days one year. Don't really know why but we'd just had our 2nd child so I suspect I was run down and stressed.
General rule is 3 instances within a 12 month period.
That's a terrible rule.
The rule here is "when you extract the urine".
Illness
You can be dismissed if you have a persistent or long-term illness that makes it impossible for you to do your job.Before taking any action, your employer should:
look for ways to support you - for example, considering whether the job itself is making you sick and needs changing
give you reasonable time to recover from your illness
If you have a disability (which may include long-term illness), your employer has a legal duty to support disability in the workplace.Dismissal because of a disability may be unlawful discrimination.
From gov.uk
I can't see there being a hard and fast rule, if you need something concrete then an employment lawyer would look at case law to decide what has been appropriate in the past should an employee challenge it at a tribunal.
I think we assume an average of 10 days a year but it varies massively between service areas. It's difficult to say reasonable as some people get ill more easily than others.
I take it you feel they are taking the piss rather than genuinely ill? And you've already had talks.
You could request access to their medical records - you'll be amazed how quick they recover or find another job.
My wife's boss just had to do this. Employee in question suddenly decided the job wasn't for her.
I have a friend with a pretty good work ethic but a string of low to medium grade issues. She also falls out of favour with employers quite regularly, I think they suspect her of skiving because she calls in so much with things like 'headaches' and 'stomach pain'.
I know the reasons for these as I have known her a long time, but her employers don't.
General rule is 3 instances within a 12 month period.
That’s a terrible rule
It is surprisingly common. I think it is one of those many company rules that is there to be enforced for the piss takers and ignored at all other times.
You could request access to their medical records
Could you? That seems pretty invasive.
General rule is 3 instances within a 12 month period.
That’s a terrible rule
Agreed. One of my team had sinus problems and had to take days off occasionally. I'd known him for 20 years and knew he wasn't skiver. If he took a week off, that was one episode. But he cares about the job, so he took Monday off, struggled in to do important work on Tuesday (it wasn't infectious), then had to take Wednesday off, came in Thursday and then off on Friday. 3 episodes, so we both had to waste an hour going through all the HR procedures.
You could request access to their medical records
Could you? That seems pretty invasive
Only the camera footage.
How valued does this employee feel?
The less someone feels valued, the less critical and illness needs to be to trigger time off and the longer recovery can take.
I think we assume an average of 10 days a year but it varies massively between service areas. It’s difficult to say reasonable as some people get ill more easily than others.
I work with a load of slackers too.
I don't get ill. Only time off sick in 30 years was a week in hospital after falling off a bike.
Anyone with kids can expect to be out for at least one full week in Q1 of any year from the point at which the kids start nursery until they get to 8 or 9.
3 kids during the 30 years too.
Seems you're all slackers 🙂
General rule is 3 instances within a 12 month period.
Same at our place, but it can be less if an instance is particularly long. You can write to their doctor to ask how you (as an employer) can support their illness/condition if it's ongoing. From what I remember from my HR days, you'll need permission from the employee though first.
That’s a terrible rule.
99% of the time nothing happens, as its easy to explain why you'd had that time off.
What it does it highlight to people who take the piss and have every other friday off, that their absence is been monitored, and corrects their behaviour.
It all falls back to why the OP is asking
Is it someone who might have an underlying health issue that is unknown?
Or is it someone who is known to generally take liberties?
how about the flip side. How many times has someone gone to work when they really should have stayed home in bed instead of taking the team down with their infection???
I'm speaking in broader terms, this whole s/he's a trooper for being in work when sick and doing 60 hour weeks is just all kinds wrong
I'd be more concerned if they had a pattern to being off sick, that would be more telling
You can't request access to a person's medical records. Well you can ask but they can and should say no.
You can arrange an occupational health assessment - and you may be able to see the suggested actions that come from that assessment so they can be put in place.
IME somebody calling in frequently with minor stuff, and just skating inside formal procedures for trigger points, there is something else going on (kids is an obvious one but there are limits, especially if they are calling in sick to child-mind). Ask them! Just use an open question and let people talk and listen to them. You might be surprised.
During this pandemic where we’ve been working from home, I haven’t bothered taking any sick days despite (a) getting ill from the COVID vaccine and (b) catching Covid-19 itself.
I did have to take 4 weeks off ‘sick’ when I had both eyes operated on (at two week intervals) for cataracts. Not my choice, but the surgeon insisted.
In a previous role where I had a toxic manager, I did register on their Bradford scale. She even called me in for a chat about my latest illness - after I’d already handed in my notice. Told her I didn’t care, I was leaving anyway
I see it's already turned into a "I work harder than everyone else" competition.
I'm going to vote for "JohnDrummer" the winner so far as he bravely goes into work whilst ill only stopping when he's blind, whereas "intheborders" simply never gets ill which doesn't demonstrate the same determination.
During this pandemic where we’ve been working from home, I haven’t bothered taking any sick days
This is key. Letting staff work from home if need be reduces sick days.
Me about 5days in every three years
My wife 1day out of every 5 but she does have health issues.
So this person is a remote worker (so no risk of bringing anything into the office) and the illnesses are all (seemingly) unrelated. There has been no mention of stress and there have been 'back to work' meetings after some longer periods of sickness where we have asked if there is anything we can do (they said no). Pattern-wise hard to say as they have been sick on and off since they joined us.
You can’t request access to a person’s medical records.
Every work contract I've signed in the last 25 years has included a clause giving the employer the right to see my medical records (6 or so jobs).
I pushed back the first couple of times but was told no sign, no job so just sucked it up.
It has only be invoked once and that's when the workplace OT was involved via proper HR channels and I was seriously ill.
We work 4 week hitches on the ship. You'd be amazed how many of the crew get recurring 'Summer Back' and 'Christmas Back' when their hitches coincide with being away from home at that time. It genuinely baffles me that the company hasn't got a better system in place for dealing with these absences.
We get paid well, and many of us can afford to be off on SSP for an extra month, but it's the blatant arrogance of it that gets me. Other people have to pick up the extra work, as often the agency crew who come in to replace them don't have the working knowledge of the ship.
General rule is 3 instances within a 12 month period.
"Instances", rather than "days", sounds reasonable. Like one instance could be a cold that lasts 2 days, another a bad back from a fall lasting 3 days, another instance could be a broken neck that lasts 6 weeks. This was me in a previous job. No-one found it unreasonable 🙂
There's also a better culture in my place now, post-Covid, that you stay home if you have a cold. Much better than those times when brave souls (myself included) would venture in to the office and spread their germs.
Self-certified or with a fitness to work note from Doctor?
Self-certified or with a fitness to work note from Doctor?
In the past it has been both (depending on the duration of the illness).
This is key. Letting staff work from home if need be reduces sick days.
Some of my work is in occupational health, even before the pandemic one of the senior managers told me something akin to "people don't take sick days any more, they work from home".
This may be most-relevant for desk jobs of course.
Sounds like some lead is being swung anyway.
Every work contract I’ve signed in the last 25 years has included a clause giving the employer the right to see my medical records
Not one single contract i've signed has given them the right to see my medical records, a couple have a clause that stipulates that they may *ask* to contact whichever medical professional is treating you in the event of long term or regular/ongoing illnesses if they feel that the information given (by you/doctors note) is not adequate.
Lost days in an office environment should generally run under 2%. A fair bit higher for medical / food production / construction. That puts a price on it so you can decide what you're prepared to tolerate or how much would be reasonable to pay for a good occupational health person to deal with it. OH would be my choice - I was skeptical but it was a real eye opener as to just how effective they can be when dealing with people working for me.
Reasonable amount - none... for some people.
If you start making a statement about an acceptable limit then people will start to use that limit.
Absolutely it needs to be there for people who need it - illness, injury, or even worse, developing a lifelong disease or condiiton which needs ongoing treatment.
But if someone I worked with (our company's biggest expense by far is payroll, our output is pdf documents) was routinely taking a total of 2 weeks a year every year for colds and headaches I'd be a bit peed off and I'd be asking for more annual leave in my review.
I'm currently signed off sick, first time I've been off in 4-5 years. We used to have the "3 instances/8 days in 12 months" sparks an informal review, but it's now at managers discretion - if you break both arms what does the bureaucracy achieve.
I think those with an option to WFH nowadays will be "off" less, but "hopefully" employers and staff will be a bit more pragmatic about people dragging themselves in and spreading germs around the workplace - not everyone has that luxury, of course, which I accept.
Some people do have more sick time than others - as a manager a few years back with a team of mainly ladies of a certain age, I had to learn an awful lot about menopausal symptoms, and I don't think any of them were taking the piss.
I also had a colleague with a genuine, certified medical issue who was put down the competency route, which seemed harsh. She came out of the meeting to announce that she had been granted an additional 8 days sick leave a year before the review would be triggered again. She then loudly began discussing and planning when she might take those extra 8 days. Absolute piss taker on the back of a genuine health issue.
We had a someone in my last co. that was always taking days off, weeks off. Seemed to be out of the office more that she was in it. Got promoted to Director. We were impressed, cos she was useless at management job she was already doing... funny thing was though, one year's Secret Santa she received a gift of paracetamol, Lemsip, ibuprofen and Vicks nasal spray. How we laughed.
If you start making a statement about an acceptable limit then people will start to use that limit.
I am not planning on making a 'statement', just wondering at what point do I need to escalate it. FWIW, the amount of time exceeds pretty much any of the examples given by others in this thread so far.
Presume this is in the UK? Different rules for different countries. You should probably ask HR for guidance, they might not have a formal policy but they'll be able to give you rule of thumb.
I've always judged this kind of thing on an individual basis - some folks that have worked for me I've had to almost force to take time off when they are ill so they get a lot of slack, others have taken the proverbial so I've followed local process to the letter and done what I can to make it clear that I know what they are up to. They are usually very aware of their rights and recognise when you are playing the game with them.
Always communicate as much as you can though (not just when they are ill!) as you never know whats going on. I had a chap working for me who was diligent and conscientious to a fault but over the course of a year started taking more and more time off with more and more outrageous reasons. Eventually, with some help from the company and some third party counselling which the company paid for, it turned out he was in the middle of a significant breakdown. He spent almost a year off work and another year on a planned easing back into work. Thankfully he's OK now and actually has a much healthier balance. As this persons manager and friend I was blown away by the amount of support the company provided, not just in time off but providing (organising, managing, funding) professional (external unbiased) help.
intheborders
Free Member
I think we assume an average of 10 days a year but it varies massively between service areas. It’s difficult to say reasonable as some people get ill more easily than others.I work with a load of slackers too.
I don’t get ill. Only time off sick in 30 years was a week in hospital after falling off a bike.
Anyone with kids can expect to be out for at least one full week in Q1 of any year from the point at which the kids start nursery until they get to 8 or 9.
3 kids during the 30 years too.
Seems you’re all slackers 🙂
Jesus H Christ 🥱