[Closed] What great things have Labour and the Conservatives done for us?

>People have become too shortsighted to see the long game; more intent on keeping up appearances, than they are in putting a bit by for a rainy day. And when people overstretch themselves, they blame anyone but themselves.

Is that Gordon Brown ?

Is that Gordon Brown ?

yep & Tony Blair & John Major & Thatcher & Callaghan & Heath & Wilson ................................................

So what are the implicatinNs for us Northern Britons when the parliament is hung? Since they have built in time for horse-tradng. Will we still be able to sponge like hell off our Southern betters?

Zulu-Eleven - Member

Ernie said a little earlier:

[b] no major reform which has benefited the lives of ordinary people in the last 100 years, has come from a Tory government. They have all come from Labour governments[/b].

Police and Criminal Evidence act 1984 - replacing the old sus laws and making huge inroads to tackling racism and corruption in the police and a real leap in civil liberties.

Employment acts of the 70's 80's and 90's

Ratty you disappoint me. I was hoping you would furnish with a long list of great Tory reforms which have benefited the lives of ordinary people in the last 100 years 😐

Still, you appear not to understand the concept of "reforms which have benefited the lives of ordinary people". So that, apart from the fact that there aren't any Tory ones, could be part of the problem.

Yes Tory governments have been known to occasionally do the correct thing. The repealing of an antiquated and archaic law, is an example of that. But that absurd law should never have still been on the statute book in the first place.

And it was only because of constant and unrelenting pressure from the scruffy leftie trots (which you despise so much) and the odd major riot, that the government felt compelled to repeal it. You must have been mortified mate. I don't remember many delegates at Tory Party conferences getting up and demanding that the Sus law be scrapped.

Of course whilst it represented a welcome change in the law, it was hardly in the league of equal pay legislation, or the creation of the National Health Service - where are your great Tory reforms ?

But the again ratty I guess you don't see the reforms of past Labour government as "great" reforms. Because you and your mates on the far right, for example, hate the National Health Service.

In fact your guru and political mentor Dan Hannan, likes to trot around the world denouncing the NHS as a "60 year old failed experiment".

And only a Tory would want to suggest that the most repressive employment legislation in the Western World, introduced to maintain the power and grip of big business, somehow benefits ordinary working people.

PACE was hardly a 'new idea' the Tories came up with, as the foundations to such an act date back more than 10 years before it's implementation.

What, like the Tories invented the NHS?

Don't be silly.

Like the tories ever gave a shit about the people of Britain. Self serving scum.

ffs, rtft, mate! I suggested the NHS as one of Labour's great achievements, another poster claimed a Tory had had the idea first. Well, even if it were true, tough shit - it's achieving something that counts on the scoreboard, not thinking about it. Ditto PACE.

Ernie - do you honestly and truly believe that the lives of 'ordinary working people' were benefitted by the actions of the unions in the late 1970's?

Of course not, 'ordinary working people' were made to suffer by the I'm alright Jack approach of union officials - are you really trying to claim that the closed shop was in the interest of ordinary workers? People actually being sacked from jobs because they were not union members? come on...You claim laws were introduced to 'maintain the power and grip of big business', But the fact is that it wasn't 'big business' who was subjected to the worst of the strike action, it was the government owned monopolies who repeatedly held crippling strikes, state employees quite literally trying to hold the country to ransom. The unions knew even then that there was no 'risk', you cannot kill the goose that laid the golden egg in the same way as you can with private or 'big' business.

Personally, I don't really think that passing more laws onto an already crammed statute book is something to be commended - I find the damage caused by the laws that Labour [b]have[/b] introduced far more concerning than the laws that the Conservatives have [b]not[/b] introduced - everything from ASBO's (criminalising non criminal behaviour) to 'anti terror' laws and removing the need for juries or open inquests

Heres were we enter the problem with Socialism, every socialist government veers sharply into the area of state control, not only of the facilities, but of the people, you ask me to deliver a list of "great reforms" of the tories, but all I can see is a huge list of horrific, punitive and controlling restrictions of civil liberties delivered by the Labour party.

Like the tories ever gave a shit about the people of Britain. Self serving scum.

IMO those that can make it in business and are interested in maximising their own wealth would not go into politics. I find it hard to imagine someone going into politics who isn't interested in improving the nation in some way. Having said that Blair has come out of it rather well - but he's a leftie...right?

Conservatives: Don't have Andy Burnham slithering around at the party conferences.

And to think, I voted for him into the council many years back because I was basing my choice on who had the fittest wife and look where that has got us.

every socialist government veers sharply into the area of state control

Hey that's a good point - New Labour is a different beast so can't blame/praise them for anything they did before Thatch.

That's a very good point. I wish I had been thinking of it when I made that last post!

IMO those that can make it in business and are interested in maximising their own wealth would not go into politics.

Ooh that Blair....

all I can see is a huge list of horrific, punitive and controlling restrictions of civil liberties delivered by the Labour party.

Just shows how incredibly blinkered your view is then.

NHS? Minimum wage? 😕

So this NHS thing - would it be better if we paid something for the common things? Say GP visits? That would reduce the numbers of old folk going in for a chat or those who've got a bit of a cold, and also reduce the number of those not turning up for an appointment maybe?

Tories:

Right to buy on council houses. Amazed that hasn't come up yet.
Smashed the unions to hell, which helped to make British industry competitive again.
The Big Bang. One of the key things that made London a finance hub, and whatever you think about bankers, they contribute a hell of a lot to UK GDP.
The veto.

Labour:
Freedom of Information act.
Free access to museums.
A lot of good intentioned policies which have been hung onto well beyond the point where they were obviously not functioning. Surestart for one (govt's own reports say it doesn't work!), and family tax credits for another. In my view, you shouldn't pay tax on the first £10k you earn, rather than have a method of claiming back tax that's so complicated that it reduces people to tears and gets the state involved in clawing back overpayments from the poorest people in society.

Right to buy on council houses. Amazed that hasn't come up yet.

It has - was it really a good thing?

Smashed the unions to hell, which helped to make British industry competitive again.

Did it?

The Big Bang. One of the key things that made London a finance hub, and whatever you think about bankers, they contribute a hell of a lot to UK GDP.

And look where that's got us.

but all I can see is a huge list of horrific, punitive and controlling restrictions of civil liberties delivered by the Labour party

HAHA! Credibility FAIL!

You need to really learn the concept of horrific restrictions on civil liberties, try talking to someone from another country. Some people don't know they are bloody well born aye.

It's easy to bang on about some theoretical restrictions on your daily lives. What about the right to not be blown up? How would you sort that out Einstein?

It seems to me that the reason some people argue so bitterly about politics is that they really don't understand how the system works. It's a no-win situation, whoever is in power, so you can stand there on the outside and whinge all you like.. Frankly, that's been getting old ever since I can remember.

Constructive debate and pragmatic criticism is good. Wild hyperbole isn't.

It's easy to bang on about some theoretical restrictions on your daily lives. What about the right to not be blown up? How would you sort that out Einstein?

Come off it. Islamic terrorism does not exist in the form or scale described in the media and by the government.

If it did, we'd be living in total chaos.

As a comparison, the IRA was riddled with informants, but still managed some form of attack, on average once a fortnight, for YEARS. And they often went for difficult targets, bumping off coppers, soldiers, barracks etc.

Well Grum, to be fair the discussions already covered the NHS - although I think that if we're all being honest here, the people who should [b]really[/b] take credit for the NHS and the welfare state are the liberal party, with the introduction of the 1911 national insurance act by Lloyd-George as part of Asquith's government, plus the fact that Beveridge, the originator of the NHS, was a Liberal!

So what about this then?

all I can see is a huge list of horrific, punitive and controlling restrictions of civil liberties delivered by the Labour party.

What are these 'horrific, punitive and controlling' measures? It's pretty much like living in Iran or North Korea really isn't it. 🙄

Molgrips/ Grum:

in the last couple of years we've seen the loss of the right to trial by jury, the loss of open independent inquests and the internment of people without evidence on the word of a politician, we've replaced courts with on the spot fines and sent people to prison for five years for suffering from mental health problems (ASBO's) - sorry, thats not theoretical and wild eyed rhetoric!

We;'ve seen the murder of people on our soil being covered up by the government (David Kelly) entry into hostile wars of aggression and breach of numerous international laws - all under the supreme labour government.

Well, where do we start?

RIP act, which overturned the burden of proof? And enabled near enough any government body to launch surveillance operations? Wholesale monitoring of internet and telecoms use?
Detention without charge?
One of the highest densities of CCTV cameras in the world?
Terrorism acts that are so broadly worded that almost anyone can be detained as a terrorist?
Repeated supression of legitimate political protest?

We are not yet living in North Korea, but thanks to the laws and systems the Labour goverment have set up, it wouldn't be very difficult to arrange.

One of the key things to me is that even if you feel that your day to day activities are not being curtailled by the government (I don't go on political protests for example), the government has enough information about a fair proportion of the population that they could blackmail them or destroy their lives if the need arose. Clicked on an "special interest" grumble site by accident once? Shagging someone who's not your wife? The government could quite easily find out, should they want to.

C'mon Grum

Lets talk about David Kelly first! Then you can tell me about how Labour have a right to govern the country in the name of the common people!

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly no fan of New Labour and their policies re civil liberties - but dismissing all of Labour's achievements by comparing them to an exaggerated version of what New Labour have done is pretty stupid.

And the Tory government locked up plenty of people without trial btw.

I'm not dismissing all Labour have done - but I honestly don't think it offsets or justifies the damage, debt and bad law they've produced in the process.

Edit.

sent people to prison for five years for suffering from mental health problems

So they made it an offence to be mentally ill? Or are you referring to a particular miscarriage of justice?

If you think you are living in a police state, you are very much mistaken. I do not think that the things you mention can be implemeted on a large scale at the whim of a few people.

And as for debt (or any of the rest of it to be honest) - what makes you think any other party would have been able to do it differently?

The problems of being governed by a group of people are huge, but there's really no alternative.

in the last couple of years we've seen the loss of the right to trial by jury, the loss of open independent inquests and the internment of people without evidence on the word of a politician, we've replaced courts with on the spot fines and sent people to prison for five years for suffering from mental health problems (ASBO's) - sorry, thats not theoretical and wild eyed rhetoric!

A bit alarmist the loss of right to trial by jury, only in certain circumstances. Although the right of trial by jury must be an absolute.

Thing is it's all well and good to point this out, but will a possible future Tory Government repeal all of this?

Labour - Smoking ban in public places - suprised no ones mentioned that yet.

That's probably the one thing I'm grateful to them for.

Seriously ratty, do you not sometimes get [i]just a little[/i] embarrassed about the rubbish that you post on here ?

Now I know that due to your extreme far right views you find the Tory Party leadership too left-wing for your liking.
But surely you are intelligent enough to realise that to describe what we've had for the last 13 years as Socialism under a socialist government, just makes you look, to put it bluntly, like a prat ?

I generally ignore much of your silly diversionary tactics ratty, but I feel slightly moved to respond to this :

[i]"Ernie - do you honestly and truly believe that the lives of 'ordinary working people' were benefitted by the actions of the unions in the late 1970's?"[/i]

I can quite honestly and completely truthfully say, that in my entire life, strike action has at it's worst, caused me very very mild inconvenience. At best, it's had no effect on me at all. It has never affected my life in any appreciable way at all. And I believe that to be also the case too, for the overwhelming majority of ordinary working people.

What has effected me throughout my life however, has been my conditions of employment, my work environment, the remuneration which I receive for my labour, job security/insecurity, etc, etc. They have all affected my life in a very profound and fundamental way.

So the answer to your question is yes. Ordinary working people benefited from the actions of unions in the late 1970's. Although obviously big business didn't. And in just one way this can be seen, is the fact of how the wages as a percentage of GDP, have dropped by 12% since the late 1970's. Britain is a low wage economy due to weak unions. Bad news for ordinary working people, very very good news for big business.

Now lets get back to the subject..........surely if the Tories are as great as you claim they are ratty, and since they've been in power for far far longer than any other party in British politics, then they have introduced far more great reforms which have benefited ordinary people than the Labour Party - no ?

I mean, it would be awful if they had only managed just [u]as many[/u] great reforms as the Labour Party - wouldn't you say so ratty ?

So list all these great Tory reforms which have fundamentally changed the lives of ordinary British people. And I'm talking about stuff like the decriminalisation of homosexuality and the Race Relation act, to give a clue what I'm after.

I note that you choose to ignore my comment that the primary victim of strike action since the 70's has not been 'big business' but the state employers - the NCB, Schools, Councils, Fire brigades etc.

Selective memory again?

Now, on topic again, lets look at the representation of the people act, which allowed women equal voting rights - over 50% of the population were affected by that one Ernie!

and how about the Factory acts?

lets look at the representation of the people act, which allowed women equal voting rights

Do it didn't.

It was the Equal Franchise Act which did that.

Now answer my question.

Now I see that you've edited your last post ratty, to include "the Factory acts".

Which one you talking about ......1803,1833,1844 ???

And are you really struggling that hard to find something relevant to the "last 100 years" ?

'Fraid you'll find its official title was the

Representation of the People (Equal Franchise) Act 1928

Ah, but while you're arguing over names, the [url=ttp://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/W1918.htm]Qualification of Women Act (1918)[/url] and the Sex Disqualification Removal Act (1919), arguably two acts which led to women getting the vote, were passed under a coalition government.

Well you needed to be more specific if you didn't mean the 1918 Act ratty. The 1928 Act is generally referred as the Equal Franchise Act. How about now being more specific about which Factory Act you mean..... the 1803 one ? Or all the ones passed by Labour governments ?

EDIT : don't bother. You are obviously struggling hard finding any great Tory reforms at all. And I'm getting a little bored now.

For whatever reason I presumed that there must be something they did that fits the 'great' criteria but there really isn't is there?

Anything on here?

http://www.youtube.com/v/IO52TjI88tE