Forum menu
What are we teaching our kids?
The fact that life is tough, that there are consequences to everything we do in this life, and that there is a minefield of unwritten social norms to try and understand?
Sorry OP, not enough information and that information is from one (biased) source.
I've been scalded by the biased information my kids told me before. I've a healthy scepticism now, and perhaps because I work with them daily, a healthy respect for teachers.
You would be very unwise not to take your kids seriously until proved otherwise, Matt. As for "biased", most of his opening post is the school's version. It will be most amusing if the school person who wrote it copy/pastes the text into Google and finds this thread. That used to work quite well but as the Internet has grown browsers aren't quite as effective as they used to be. I tried the last sentence and it throws up this thread as first result, but then Google knows my preferences.
.
Unless we haven't got the full story, I'd have dealt with that by way of a conversation about respect for others work and being careful when working in an art room (I'm an art teacher). Probably from the 'How would you feel if that was your work?' angle.
IME in most cases of 'minor' issues, a conversation has more effect than a sanction which tends to just foster contempt. Every teacher needs to read Paul Dix's work on this IMO. Teachers and schools have a tendency to impose sanctions to make them feel better about poor behaviour rather than in any attempt to understand or prevent that behaviour.
Trailwagger....... You mind me asking, how old is Daughter No.2?
How would you feel if that was your work?
Maybe they already asked that? It was clear from the OP that the other student was upset by what happened so it does sound like there is more to it than a simple accident when someone was just scribbling on a piece of paper that just happened to accidentally be on top of someone else's work.
You would be very unwise not to take your kids seriously until proved otherwise, Matt.
No fricking way are you an ex-teacher. 🤣
Did you not tell them it’s Inktober?
Perhaps they were trying to stop it escalating into a ‘they said/she said’ argument.
If they didn't want to escalate it they shouldn't have given her a detention!
Back when I was at school that would have got me the belt (tawse)
Its always funny reading school threads on here
Oooh I know! Turn it on it's head and sue the other student for copyright infringement.
Back when I was at school that would have got me the belt (tawse)
That used to be the default punishment up until the mid 80's
The last person to get the belt before it was banned at my primary school was James Lark.
I think the op posting under the title what are we teaching our kids is a bit of an over reaction. Which isn't to say that those involved haven't been upset or that there isn't a genuine issue, just that jumping from a single incident to judgements about the state of education in general is almost always unjustified.
No fricking way are you an ex-teacher.
Well I don't teach anymore and have no intention of doing so again.
It's important that when kids turn to their parents for help that they are taken seriously. Kids can have all sorts of issues at school and your first reaction should be to listen carefully to them. If it warants contacting the school do so with discretion and tact. I'm also a father and very pleased I took junior seriously even when what he was saying seemed far fetched. It was entirely accurate, the school acted as necessary on the information.
I wouldn't have bothered to query a detention over some scribling but I do find the school a bit OTT both in the initial punishment and the tone of the reply to the OP - to the point of finding it laughable. But then whether a teacher or a parent or both you live through a lot of laughable things that are school related. The day you stop finding them laughable is the day to quit and find another job.
Paul Dix who's main reference is himself. It all seems reasonable on the surface but it's a bit culty. Watch anything by him and note how many times he talks about himself. His method works if everyone does it, a single questioning voice or slip will cause it all to crumble. Your fault not his.
Sorry I don't like the fad not all of it is bad but not all of it is possible.
If they didn’t want to escalate it they shouldn’t have given her a detention!
So bad behaviour should go unpunished?
Sorry I don’t like the fad not all of it is bad but not all of it is possible.
Absolutely. Totally agree that to do it exactly his way is an all or nothing approach and not practical in most real world contexts. I still think most teachers could learn something from reading his stuff as long as they don't take it purely as an instruction manual.
I do believe that it's possible to extract from his (and other similar) ideas a core set of principles that can be usefully applied to more pragmatic school contexts. As a Head of Year I've had interesting and positive results from some less 'opressive' pilots using an adaptation of his approach. Seeing some interesting stuff now coming out of primaries using a 'no sanction/no reward' approach that I'm trying to see how I could potentially apply in a secondary setting.
Was it bad behaviour? If we are to believe both the daughter and school, which I do as their accounts concord then there was no intention to behave badly. Intent is very important in both criminal law and school discipline.
Should it go unpunished? I wasn't there so I can't answer that, it would depend on:
Previous behaviour and attitude in class
Whether any remorse was shown and whether an apology (preferably spontaneous) was made to the owner of the damaged work.
But hopefully find a way out that was going to create minimum shit and bad blood. There's enough shit to deal with in teaching without voluntarily producing more.
Ah, detentions. I remember the RE teacher getting the head of year to give me detention for not going to the class. I didn’t go to detention either. My reasoning being if I didn’t go to the class itself when I was supposed to, why on earth would I turn up for detention relating to a class I wouldn’t attend and outside of school hours. Lunacy and utterly illogical. Can’t actually recall what happened as a result though. Whatever it was, it will not have been taken very seriously.
Those saying don’t question authority, why not? Questioning things is always good. Doesn’t have to be done aggressively. Obeying for the sake of it, not so much.
OP’s case sounds a bit heavy handed if his daughter is being honest. Surely an apology would’ve sufficed if it was indeed an accident. Letter sounds quite pompous too. Treated as a grown up, right. Can’t recall getting detention in my adult life, having sanctions against me or being punished for anything because that would be ****ing absurd.
‘no sanction/no reward’
When I can't catch my horse because its in a lush field and doesn't feel like going out I can either round it up with a stick (which requires two people) or offer it corn. With neither a stick nor a few corn cobs I may as well give up on the idea of riding, go home and make tea.
^have you tried detention on the horse to teach it a valuable life lesson that it can take in to equine adulthood?
Interesting: At my school, detention was seen as a really serious thing. If you got three of them in one term you were expelled.
Still trying to determine the age of Daughter No.2.
I think people might raise an eyebrow if my suspicions are correct.
have you tried detention on the horse
No, he's bigger than me. The last time Madame annoyed him he bit her bum a week later. They're friends again now.
... we must remember ‘ignorance is no plea’.”
What does the STW folk think? Reasonable or totally overblown?
Sounds like they would like:
1. A response clarifying the difference between mens rea and actus rea.
2. Pointing out that even in cases where strict liability applies, ignorance IS a plea (in mitigation) and so it shouldn't automatically follow that the same punishment applies for a mistake and a calculated culpable action.
3. Any punishment applied by the state (which a school is an agent of) should only follow a fair tribunal (article 6 of the human rights act); and various sections of the UN rights of the child - including especially the section on punishment in schools.
Of course if there was malice involved, she had been warned and was careless, or was really being punished for mucking about not doing work then it may well be justified; but if it’s a total accident then it would appear that if the school want to argue “consequences have actions” then they probably need to consider that “sanctions should have right of appeal” too.
Mumsnet called, they want their thread back...
Also, sometimes things are not ok, even if you don’t mean to do them. See ‘driving without due care and attention’ in the law books.
A common prosecution amongst schoolchildren.
True, but around our area it was usually well down the list - twocing, driving without a licence, driving underage, criminal damage etc were usually first.
5.20 am and I am getting up to get in early to sort out an after school altercation between pupils having read emails after a meeting which occurred after an extended day to stagger children in.
Soon with enough students isolating you will be able to watch the lesson live with your child at home, yes this really is the plan.
30 students version of fair in a lesson, plus webcams WFH parents version will be the answer to such "was the detention fair" threads. In future we can all post up the incident. It might even replace "Is this a crack?" thread.
When I can’t catch my horse because its in a lush field and doesn’t feel like going out I can either round it up with a stick (which requires two people) or offer it corn. With neither a stick nor a few corn cobs I may as well give up on the idea of riding, go home and make tea.
Wilful misunderstanding of the concept as it might apply to education just for the sake of a debate? Surely not?
So bad behaviour should go unpunished?
What bad behaviour?
Don't challenge the school let them do their job.
Discipline may have been issued due to a culmination of a number of eye rolling incidents or something else that is wearing on someone that has to put up with 30 kids being dicks all day.
If she is beyond inconsolable or she is put in a terms worth of detention then have a chat but don't seek to challenge, seek to understand and to support the schools actions.
My detentions were an invaluable resource for me, they taught me so much about how not to get caught and how to be mindful of what I did and when.
A kid who has someone to fight their battles for them will learn nothing.
Still trying to determine the age of Daughter No.2.
she is 11
she is 11
Furnished with that information (and as I said way back when) I think the punishment seems unfair assuming we have the full story – I assume she is in her first term of secondary school so she will be still finding her feet, as will the other child. I have two daughters of the same age and I would be very surprised if their school reacted like that.
Ask, "what's more important, the piece of work or my child's emotional and social wellbeing and education?"
I'm a teacher and sometimes, well often, things go wrong by accident in the classroom.
What you do is teach the importance of saying sorry, receiving an apology gracefully, moving on and learning from mistakes made.
Instead, this is teaching what we should do is assume there's motive behind something being damaged, escalate a situation, punishment, involve others, install a blame culture and extend the whole "incident".
This has possibly happened because another parent has complained about precious Tabitha's work being damaged and the teacher being too weak to say accidents happen, they apologised, move on.
This teacher sounds incompetent at classroom control and conflict resolution. Book a meeting or phone call with them (or even a senior leader if they've really upset your kid), have points similar to those above lined up, do it calmly and start open ended with the approach. For example, "I have concerns over how conflict is being handled in my child's classroom. Could you clarify to me what should happen if a piece of child's work suffers minor accidental damage?"
Then when you hear, apology, acceptance, move on, etc then explain what happened, how it is clearly wrong and against good practice, damaging to your child's education and mental health.
Explain that if this happens again then you'll be complaining officially, that you've recorded this incident and taken notes.
Shot across the bows. If they're so weak and angry that they start punishing children for minor accidents then they need to back off your child!
^^^ Fantastic way to start a good relationship with the school that will be responsible for their daughter's education for at least the next five years (goes off to find a 'rolling eyes' emoji)
No, he’s bigger than me. The last time Madame annoyed him he bit her bum a week later. They’re friends again now.
😂
@hugo - well said and nice to hear the opinion of a teacher.
As a matter of interest, is that a copy-and-paste of the school's response, or a precis of it?
you will be able to watch the lesson live with your child at home, yes this really is the plan.
Off topic but important.
Our school has absolutely decreed this will not happen.
Safeguarding legislation, and being able to prove who has access to the feed at the other end of the web cast.
On topic - well said Hugo.
I’m going to respectfully withdraw from this thread as there are some details that don’t quite add up.
Trailwagger….. I hope you manage to find peace. I can’t image what it must be like to deal with some of the situations you have previously mentioned.
All I ask is that you remember that us teachers are here to help and what might initially seem as an over-reaction by a stressed member of staff, might actually have some value and might just be the tipping point that begins to sort some of these difficult behaviours out.
Often, it takes a lot of soul-searching and deep-thinking to finally acknowledge that there is a problem. (And a huge amount of fortitude to seek help.) Sometimes we can’t ignore the flashing oil light on the dashboard any longer. We just have to pop the bonnet and fix the damn thing! It’s a very brave thing to do and it sounds like you are trying to find a solution. I wish you all the best.
Good luck. It will be all ok in the end, and if it’s not….. then it’s not the end.
Just to add what Simon says - teachers are human too. Its not an exact science and they do make mistakes
don't risk blowing this up into something bigger than it is both in terms of what your daughter thinks and in terms of your attitude to the school.
Trailwagger….. I hope you manage to find peace. I can’t image what it must be like to deal with some of the situations you have previously mentioned.
I'm not sure what that means. Or the rest of your post to be honest.
I'm not trying to blow this up or make a bigger deal out of it than it needs to be, but I also don't want my daughters currently exemplary school record blighted by the over exuberance of one teacher on a bad day.
I replied to the school with this email.
Thank you for the prompt reply and for looking into this matter.
It is good to hear that the school aims to treat students in as grown up a fashion as possible. As a grown up myself I would be very upset if I was punished for such a petty and unintentional mistake as drawing on a scrap of paper with someone else's work underneath.
However, my aim is not to undermine the authority of you or your staff, so I will talk to **** and ask her to arrange lunchtime help with Mrs ****.
Thank you again for you help in this matter
kind regards