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Over my many years of barbering the biggest observable difference is the confidence they exude. This may or may not be linked to wealthier backgrounds.
I’ve got friends from less well off backgrounds who are now in careers that would be unthinkable without getting the chance to attend a private school
Interested to know what careers are unthinkable without a private education? I can't think of any.
My son goes to (selective) private school, I did it for two reasons
1. I think the education will be better than he would get from the comprehensive school that he would be able to get into, ie our catchment area.
2. I want him to have a good education to enable him to make the right decisions in life.
I didn't go to private school myself, so far I'm on the fence as to whether going private is the right choice, it's a shed load of money.
One things for certain, if private schools and selective grammars were banned, the money invested and quality of state education would go up!
I’ve got friends from less well off backgrounds who are now in careers that would be unthinkable without getting the chance to attend a private school
My peer group at the comp include a doctor, a high level engineer, a CEO, A top research scientist who became one of the top in the world in his field, a townplanner,
MY father was a top education professional. His take on the academic side of things was that if you were academic type it made little difference. If you were not you were better in a comp, if yo sat in the middle of the ability group better in the comp as in a fee paying school you would be at the bottom of the pile and would stuggle
I certainly believe the wider aspects of socialisation and so on was good for me for personal development but my good pal from the schemes who went onto become a doctor believes he would have done better in a fee playing school - he perhaps did not need that socialisation aspect
The other aspect is that kids from fee paying schools do less well at further education that someone with the same exam results from a comp because the kid from the comp has learnt self study rather than be directed all the time
One poster above alluded to this happening to them
Two observations.
One, we paid for our son from 3-13 (when we moved north and school within a sensible distance). He's early 20's now and one thing he's got that his friends haven't is the ability to fit in comfortably across the majority of social & work situations.
Two, when in my more 'jet-setting' jobs the vast majority of my colleagues were privately educated, earning good money with lawyer/accountant backgrounds. Only real reason I was there was that back then IT was seen as a 'Grammar School' skillset rather than something taught in school/uni. I could see how easier it would've been to get on with their background, and while I worked with lots of bright folk, there were also a fair number of knobs (who wouldn't have got anywhere without the door been already open to them).
If you don't take the place, you'll regret it IMO and she may regret it more...
As noted above, parental engagement is the most important thing, whatever school you go to. Top private school + dickhead parent = messed up kid. See Boris Johnson et al.
Absolutely this. Although private schools can sometimes fill that gap. From people I know who went to private schools, they have a greater expectation of success and hard work from the pupils, which may or may not suit the kids personality, but I've also seen the same at high performing state schools.
If the kid wants to try it, let them try it. It might suit, it might not. Don't let the complete **** wittery of our privately educated political class fool you into thinking that is how all privately educated people turn out.
But the immediate answer that springs to mind to the OPS question is "much better quality drugs"
OP - I've not read the rest of the thread.
We had friends who got similar scholarship for thier daughter.
She really, really enjoyed it and benefitted from it. Solid support from teachers when it was needed, a broad set of opportunities. She thrived there against some personal challenges.
The downsides for daughter was a constant comparison of how wealthy the others were - try inviting a 15 year old friend round who has thier own suite of bathroom, bedroom and lounge to your ex-council semi.
Downsides for parents - although a ful scholarship they had to pay for expensive uniform, breakfast club, and many trips that were not included.
On balance it was good for her.
Sadly the school went bust the year of first exams, she sat last few years in local state school. Which was a good school, but didn't support the challenges (ADHD+) at all really.
My peer group at the comp include a doctor, a high level engineer, a CEO, A top research scientist who became one of the top in the world in his field, a townplanner,
Yes, but you're in your late 50's/early 60's and the world has changed VASTLY since then.
Also you're not had kids to be able to see the difference to when we were in education and growing up - social mobility is IME going backwards to before our and our parents time, and will get worse before (or even if) it gets better again.
MY father was a top education professional. His take on the academic side of things was that if you were academic type it made little difference
Good point - my lad went to a secondary school that narrowly avoided special measures. He's just finished his first term at Cambridge.
The downsides for daughter was a constant comparison of how wealthy the others were –
A very good point - through Scouting I know a lad who went to the top state school in the County, which (chicken and egg) is in a very expensive town. He wasn't well off or sporty and had a hard time from idiots who thought parental wealth gave them rights
Accepted intheborders I did allude to that in my first post
As per my first post it very much depends on the choice of schools and the kid involved as per my comparison between me and my pal who became a doctor
I do strongly believe education is about far more than just exam results.
I do strongly believe education is about far more than just exam results.
So much this.
And a well funded private school has resources to offer a broader set of experiences and tailored support.
I'm not convinced that the teaching standards are much higher.
Fwiw, I've spent the last 5 years working with a group of (very expensive) international private schools. They are brilliant and thier pupils get a lot from the education experience they offer. But I've seen just as good, if not better more regularly, teaching in state schools across the UK.
You already know the private school is outperforming the others in your area.
If, as you say, you can afford it then it's a no-brainer.
Had experience of both. Hated school all the way through. Private, though, hands-down. Class size alone makes life easier, without all the other advantages.
You're not gaining by "mixing with all walks of life" at a young age at state schools. At that age there's more benefit from having a less disruptive environment. You've the rest of your life to mix with whoever you want. Only one chance at school tho...
My thoughts on some of the comments above.
The first private school my son went to was completely about the parents showing off their wealth it really was a case of upgrading the car based on what everyone else had in the car park. Interesting when we turned up in our knackered Mondeo
However schools since then I’ve not seen that snobbery at all. The fact is though that most of the kids there, the parents have worked hard and made their money so why not have nice things. Most I have spoken to are perfectly nice normal people who work bloody hard to earn lots of money
Education style - my son isn’t spoon fed, in fact they are already very much installing in him independent learning. At 11 he knows how to research and and reference etc.
Mrs FD is a top surgeon in an international field and went to a comp in Mansfield. Most of her peers went to private school, it does stop her being one of the best, but at times she does see subtle leadership/confidence skills that are installed in them that she has to work at, plus the ‘old boys network’ really does make life easier.
My cousin too went to a comp, and then Oxford. He is a top CEO and worked at that level in many companies, advised to government etc. He says it’s not a closed shop to mingle in those circles but a private education and Oxford/Cambridge university certainly make things easier
Parenting is also key keeping that fine line between confidence and arrogance in check
Interview scenario...
"So you went to school with Rupert"
IME the staff are invested (or paid well enough to be)
We had teachers who spent every single weekend running trips. Paint balling, canal boating, sailing, "quad bike safari". Every single weekend Big Mike and Sharon spent running those trips.
Subsidised by the school, so they were all 30quid all in, which is for two full days activities,accomodation and food.
Most staff on site and available till 11pm at least one night every week.
My sisters husband is a teacher at one, and he seems to love it. Spends his weekends jollying about with Cadets, seems to enjoy the late shift in the boarding houses. Bashes all his marking out in school anyway, so seems quite efficient.
Point is, he enjoys it, i suspect hes very well paid for the trouble, and he doesnt have to tolerate ****bag kids.
RE our illustrious leader. I dont get the impression "going to Eton" facilitates being PM.
I suspect the PMs that come out of Eton were not the top of the class. Top of the class at Eton has better paid things to be doing that running the country as PM. Like running the country behind the PMs back.
My own experience (from the 90's so not exactly recent...!)
My younger sister and I both went to the same private school in SE London. There were 3 schools loosely linked: 1 all boys, 1 all girls and 1 mixed.
We were both on scholarship places, there's no way that our parents could have afforded the full fees. My Mum was a teacher and she knew what a lot of the local comprehensive schools were like, it was a case of best opportunity for us rather than a class or wealth thing. There were definitely some very wealthy families there but it was a fairly broad background and very little of it ever seemed in your face, there was no "my dad is a millionaire" type stuff or overt snobbery that I ever witnessed.
Academically it was very good, there wasn't much disruption and it was well funded enough to have good science facilities plus opportunities like Latin and half decent IT department.
Loads of sports options - our school was very much hockey and football whereas the all boys up the road was a known as a rugby school. We had an excellent pool, tennis and fives/squash courts and a running track and gym.
It was the extra curricular activities like Combined Cadet Force and DoE which made it stand out though. I did so much with the RAF Cadets that I'd never have got a chance to outside the private system. My sister did a year in Army Cadets then switched to DoE.
Teaching (back then) was a bit varied. There were some excellent teachers but equally a couple who simply wouldn't have survived as teachers outside the relatively comfortable confines of that environment. Generally though, pretty positive and a lot of the teachers were very into the DoE / Cadets / outdoors side of things too with various extra trips offered. Our chemistry teacher used to take small groups of us on walking holidays.
I don't think it unlocked any doors though, there didn't seem to be a sort of fast track back door Old Boys Network - it certainly had its share of the stereotypical "private school" like a house system, Sixth Form common room, prefects and so on but it wasn't Eton by any means!
Ultimately, out of all the secondary schools I looked at, comp and private, that was the one I wanted to go to. I wasn't pushed towards it but I wanted that school and I worked hard to get the grades and entrance exam result to get that scholarship place.
Gross generalisation: not having to share a classroom and the teacher’s time with kids who have massive social problems that need managing instead of just learning the subject.
Very true for me. A typical scenario in my class would be kids setting off the gas taps with flames going across the desks, throwing lit paper aeroplanes at the teacher and worse one stabbing a teacher with a fork.
I managed to do okay but none of that stuff helped. I then went to a grammar school for A levels and saw the other side, relatively rich kids who wouldn't even talk to the likes of me. Neither were great situations and couldn't wait to finish school and had no real confidence in my abilities until I started working and realised most people were not that great.
I would have probably benefited from private school but it may have been a bit too much like my grammar school experience but even more so, who knows.
You want to give her the best chances of having a childhood in which she interacts and socialises only with wealthy people.
The best chance to become overly confident and to struggle to empathise with or relate to the vast majority of people who haven't received a private school education.
I don't get this idea that going to a private school means you only interact with rich people and don't understand how the normals live. It's total bollocks. You can still retain friends from the state system, and shock horror, even meet kids who go to other schools as part of your teenage funtimes.
Some very interesting perspectives here form allsides of this
to the OP have a sift thru and think which scenarios most match your kid and the schools that you have to chose from. Plenty of info and insights to help you decide
tongue firmly in cheek - which is worse - being bullied for being a posh smart kid in the comp or being bullied for being the poor oik in the fee paying school? 🙂
All depends on if the school and the child are a good fit, round here (buckinghamshire) the difference between state grammar and secondary is night & day. Eldest went to posh state grammar (run very much like a private school) & didn't fit so we moved him to the tier 2 grammar, middle son went to secondary which suited his abilities, youngest son failed his 12+ purely through exam technique & I would have loved to have paid for him to go private, but he's eventually reached his "level" albeit after 7yrs of university courses - I daren't ask what his student loan is 😳 sending him to private school would have been better for him but I couldn't afford it.
My partner went to a "cheap" private school in London (it was cheaper than moving near a good school apparently).
Her impression was it gave her more confidence and there were more opportunities. i.e. If you happened to be really good at something, there was more chance of being able to excel in it.
She pointed out that had I gone to a private school "things would have been picked up" and I would have done a lot better apparently. Not sure what she was getting at there.
I'd send my kids if they were offered a place (I'm quite academic and went to state school)
My partner wouldn't (She wasn't so academic and went to private school)
You want to give her the best chances of having a childhood in which she interacts and socialises only with wealthy people.
The best chance to become overly confident and to struggle to empathise with or relate to the vast majority of people who haven’t received a private school education.
Or you can go to a state school and develop chips on your shoulders so big that they become blinkers. 😉
It was the extra curricular activities like Combined Cadet Force and DoE which made it stand out though.
This is very true. My lad (and now daughter) have developed so much better socially, in confidence and in general life skills through Scouts, Guides, sports and music activities than through school lessons alone. Yes, they are fortunate we are willing to sacrifice holidays and fancy cars and home improvements to support it*, but any school or group that can offer those opportunities is worth looking at.
*and we are constantly pitching in with the next fundraising event 🙄
Social mobility is an interesting one for me. My lad has gone from a shitty secondary to Cambridge, which is enabling him to meet a big range of young people from a variety of backgrounds (though 70% are now state school iirc) and who knows what opportunities that may give him.
My wife and I were the first in the families to get degrees.
Our dad's were the first in the families to work up to being a manager and be a teacher respectively
Our grandads were a jobbing carpenter and a stoker in the Merchant Navy.
So there is, ime, very much a generational aspect to social mobility rather than an instant fix.
The big rider is that there should be something in place for kids from any background to be able to access support to develop their talents, academic or vocational. That's where it falls down for most kids and families.
Lincolnshire. I belive only us, Buckinghamshire, Kent and Northern Ireland still have grammar schools? I wait to be corrected)
There are grammar schools all over the place, 163 in England to be precise.
One other disadvantage of private that strikes me is the current focus on social mobility.
Universities (especially the 'good' ones) are setting quotas for state educated entrants. This will mean that some higher achieving privately educated kids will lose out to kids from state schools with lower academic grades.
In that sense, the private label is a hindrance, and not a help.
Possibly worth some consideration if university is likely to be an option later on.
The bullying angle is an interesting one. I definitely was on the receiving end as the 'poor' kid / outsider joining private late. Then again I used to get bullied as the 'officers kid' as well as being an outsider pretty much every time we moved battalion / school. It was pretty shit to be fair.
I didn't have a problem at uni, and didn't have an issue fitting in, i was studying law so maybe that was it. first job out of uni I learned to keep quiet about my background as their were relentless comments about 'born with a silver spoon' from guys who still lived at home with mum and had cars paid for etc... whereas my stepdad had said 'fund yourself' through uni.... grated somewhat.
I think, with the additional funds I will have by not spending on private school I can enrich my kids lives more than a private education - be that extra activities, learning, holidays etc.. that we couldn't afford if we we paying huge fees. Like I said I might change my mind at secondary. My main concern is getting in with the wrong kids, which can also happen at private school
My 6th form was very small, 30 or so boys. Before I left uni 4 6th formers were dead - 2 drugs related, 1 motorcycle accident and 1 from illness. Not sure how that stacks up on the national average but it felt pretty high
I can't believe the number of people getting the causality the wrong way round. People don't gain confidence from going to a private school. Private schools attract the type of people who think they are better than everyone else from the start. They have that confidence already.
I was
offeredforced to go to Hutchesons at149. Irefusedhated it with a passion and it ruined my life because the hutchie kids were basically dicks
I don’t get this idea that going to a private school means you only interact with rich people and don’t understand how the normals live. It’s total bollocks. You can still retain friends from the state system, and shock horror, even meet kids who go to other schools as part of your teenage funtimes.
Agree. There are so many prejudices in play with this kind of conversation, from both sides. I grew up in a sea side town when no-one wanted to live in sea side towns and the generally accepted career path was either a building site or prison. Thanks to a supportive mum who made lots of sacrifices I managed to get to university where I met people from all walks of life. 30 years later I'm lucky to still have a very close group of friends from uni, between us we came through state schools, grammar schools, private schools funded by the army, and private schools funded by wealthy parents. Some of our kids go to state schools, some to grammar, and some to private.
We all meet up regularly and while there is a good bit of banter about being poor/rich/army brat/etc we are all just people. Our kids might notice the material difference between us all (house size, nice car, whatever) but when you're playing on a rope swing none of that matters, they just see their friends. There is always someone richer than you, and always someone poorer than you but they are all people.
I don’t get this idea that going to a private school means you only interact with rich people and don’t understand how the normals live. It’s total bollocks. You can still retain friends from the state system, and shock horror, even meet kids who go to other schools as part of your teenage funtimes.
Some of my best friends are normals.
Thanks all - some interesting points.
Firstly the school is nowhere near being an Eton/Old boys club school - if it was we'd walk away.
There seems a fair balance to the pupil demographic, so shouldn't be much of the 'I am considerably richer than you' type stuff.
Her closest friends from her current school are going to different schools so no guarantee that they would be together after yr 6 anyway.
She wants to learn, and sometimes feels that she's being held back a bit.
we are also very much hands on parents when it comes to education - we don't just leave it to the school.
It became apparent during lockdowns & home learning that we were very much in the minority there - My step son had work set every day by his high school - which we ensured he did. We spoke to some teachers and he was only 1 of about 10 kids that completed all of the work - some hadn't done any.
Same think with my daughters school, although they had more zoom lessons and the teachers checked in on them outside of the lessons, but there were still those who were very much of the 'not my job to teach my kids' once the zoom lesson had finished.
We are by no means 'rolling in it' - so if it weren't for the scholarship this choice would be off the table.
Daughter had a 'taster day' the week before she sat the scholarship exam, and seemed to enjoy it and was keen to take the exam.
Turns out my MIL has a friend of a friend whose Granddaughter is at the school - now yr 11, so we are going to have a chat with her and let Imogen make up her mind.
Us them, old school tie, accent, nepotism, elitism, exclusion, class system, discrimination, perpetuating a system that stinks.
I started a similar thread regarding our daughter starting at a private school a couple of years ago. She was also offered a scholarship and at the time really didn't want to go as her best friend was starting at the local comp.
She's now in year 8 and absolutely loves the private school that we made her go to !
My observations as a Builder with no private school experience are as follows-
All the kids are motivated to learn and so the teachers interact, encourage and talk to them on a more adult level. They don't have to the issue of controlling disruptive classrooms.
The teaching goes beyond the curriculum into encouraging the pupils to go beyond what they've been taught in the classroom and make there own investigations into the subject.
It does feel as though the school is almost a retreat from real life where many of the problems and issues of a state school education don't exist. My son went to a state school by the way.
Overall, if the child is academic and the school is selective on academic ability then they will thrive and grow in a private school.
There can be no advantage in a clever kid mixing with the less bright and disruptive that I can think of. As adults we know they exist and so try to avoid them.
I can’t believe the number of people getting the causality the wrong way round. People don’t gain confidence from going to a private school. Private schools attract the type of people who think they are better than everyone else from the start. They have that confidence already.
My son was 3 when he started at private school, or are you referring to parents?
Would you like an education that is costing £4k per year or £12k?
A neighbour has just had his 4yr old son expelled from a private school at £14k/year after 3 weeks as his son has quite bad ADHD they the school had no ability (or will) to manage it.
He's now at the local state infant / junior school where he has a dedicated TA assigned to him and is getting on much better apparently.
He’s now at the local state infant / junior school where he has a dedicated TA assigned to him and is getting on much better apparently.
But imagine how disruptive it is for the rest of his classmates though... Lessons being stopped whilst he has a tantrum (for want of a better word), all the kids having to leave the classroom whilst he throws chairs around etc... That's the reality for many kids being educated alongside someone with ADHD, dedicated TA or not.
Whole different debate and not linked to the OP, but a private school can at least make a call as they have to serve the interests of the 29 others (and their fee paying parents) as well as the individual's special needs.
I live in an area where many parents are sending their kids to schools in the top 20 by academic performance in the country - five or six of them are an easy journey. Hopefully they are good schools, but the primary driver for their results is the competition to get places which is brutal often more than ten to one. The kids who get in are always going to get excellent results, although many have a bit of shock having been superstars previously, now they are just "average".
I can’t believe the number of people getting the causality the wrong way round. People don’t gain confidence from going to a private school.
I did. More specifically, it was via the Cadets that taught me that confidence.
Generally I kept my head down, was never especially social or outgoing and while I was confident enough in my academic abilities, I wasn't great at sports like football - you don't really gain a lot of confidence from being picked last every time. Where I did far better was outdoors/teamwork stuff that the cadets offered and also the more individual or small group sports. I was very good at fives (interestingly less good at squash!).
Without those opportunities, I'd probably just have kept my head down to avoid being bullied for wearing glasses and being a swot.
A neighbour has just had his 4yr old son expelled from a private school at £14k/year after 3 weeks as his son has quite bad ADHD they the school had no ability (or will) to manage it.
Not uncommon, most people who have kids who need serious special needs support end up in the state system round here. Many of the private schools have selection at 4 so they avoid the issue, but others manage the kids out because they are too demanding of resources.
Not uncommon, most people who have kids who need serious special needs support end up in the state system round here.
Makes perfect commercial sense for the Private school, why would they want anyone who takes up extra resources for no benefit for the school (other than being inclusive). Just kick out any trouble makers at the first sign of not fitting in.
Just a bit ironic that the poorly funded state school actually provides more resources....
You want to give her the best chances of having a childhood in which she interacts and socialises only with wealthy people.
The best chance to become overly confident and to struggle to empathise with or relate to the vast majority of people who haven’t received a private school education.
Dont push your own narrow minded views on to your kids. Everything you say above is about parenting not schooling
Look more at what opportunities you can give them and bringing up well rounded kids
Whilst tj says tongue firmly in cheek:
tongue firmly in cheek – which is worse – being bullied for being a posh smart kid in the comp or being bullied for being the poor oik in the fee paying school?
I actually think he's kind of right, especially when you consider what TiRed said:
Teenage girls can be very cruel.
Oh, and analysis from an old friend who moved from teaching in fairly rough glasgow school to pretty good private school - "the main difference is the quality of the drugs the pupils are using!"
The whole selection process, whether through cash or testing, is at the rotten heart of the UK's education system. Until it's lottery and you go where you're assigned this society will remain riven with difficulties.
Having said that, I trained my kids to pass the 11+ and got them into the best state grammar school in the country. I didn't want them to have the low working class horizons I saw and that was the only way I could give them any chance of a middle class trajectory. One is now most of the way to being a doctor, the other following close behind. No-one from the estate comp I went to would have dreamed of doing those things.
Look more at what opportunities you can give them and bringing up well rounded kids
I think the point may have been that going to an elitist school may not produce the well rounded part...
Dont push your own narrow minded views on to your kids. Everything you say above is about parenting not schooling
Look more at what opportunities you can give them and bringing up well rounded kids
The whole point of private school education is to allow people to pass on a set of attitudes to their kids. Which is why I think they should be abolished.
The whole selection process, whether through cash or testing, is at the rotten heart of the UK’s education system. Until it’s lottery and you go where you’re assigned this society will remain riven with difficulties.
The UK doesn't have one education system. Scotland is closer to what you describe - default position is you go to the local school (but there is a private market, people who suddenly remember their catholic faith (or renounce it!), and people buying houses to get in the catchment area). Interesteingly:
No-one from the estate comp I went to would have dreamed of doing those things.
I may be wrong but I don't think there will be a single secondary school in Scotland that hasn't produced doctors, vets, or dentists etc. However, I suspect that opportunity still doesn't reach everyone equally based on their aptitude rather than their inheritance.