ok, so now that scotland has voted, would everyone mind awfully if the other 95% of the population of the united kingdom could now vote on the same issue please?
ta
Are you saying Westminster are looking after their own interests? What might these be? How can 'Westminster' as a whole have any kind of common interest?
You really are hopelessly naive at times Molls. I view 'The Establishment' with utter contempt, because that is all they're worthy of. The three main parties are all in the thrall of a totally discredited corporatist philosophy that suits nobody but those at the top, who benefit enormously. And they simply refuse to look past it. Their self-serving agendas have been indistinguishable for decades.
They ruthlessly defend their own pampered positions, while exclusively representing the interests of global financiers, and corporate lobbyists. The actual interests of their citizens/subjects are frankly incidental and of little significance.
Why do you think they looked so panicked last week? This is people demanding [i]actual[/i] change. And nothing scares them more than that. They want things exactly as they are. No change. As it suits them quite nicely, thank you. And GB is just as complicit in that as Boris Johnson or any Tory. Tony Blair - who apparently was a labour MP - is the very living embossment of this morality-free grasping, corporate fawning greed, and self-interest!
We're desperate for this, can't you see?
Quite obviously we weren't.
Don't forget that labour would be screwed without Scotland.
Ohh yes definitely agreed.
45% were. Now the fact that that part of the 'united' kingdom - as well as many other parts of this sceptred isle - is evenly divided is plain to see.
It's not over...
They ruthlessly defend their own pampered positions, while exclusively representing the interests of global financiers, and corporate lobbyists. The actual interests of their citizens/subjects are frankly incidental and of little significance.
You talk, all I hear is one-sided spin. As I mentioned previously, you can add embitterment and vitriol to anything but it doens't really help figure out what's actually happening - in fact it makes it a lot harder.
Go back and nibble some more grass. Baaaaaa...
Awwww bless... think they give a toss about you? Like your interests even register? Wake up Molls, for gods sake!
All 3 parties represent exclusively the interests of Corporate lobbyists and global financiers. If you can't see that then you're letting your naiveté and misplaced optimism blind you to whats staring you in the face!
[i]Tony Blair - who apparently was a labour MP - is the very living embossment of this morality-free grasping, corporate fawning greed, and self-interest![/i]
Bet you voted for him though Binners? 8)
Why do you think they looked so panicked last week? This is people demanding actual change. And nothing scares them more than that. They want things exactly as they are. No change. As it suits them quite nicely, thank you. And GB is just as complicit in that as Boris Johnson or any Tory
Whilst I can agree with the sentiment in general terms, surely Dave & The T's would've benefitted more from Scotland voting Yes? They would probably have been in Government for years if Labour had lost their Scottish voters.
I see the No vote as saving the world from such an occurrence and, hopefully, a catalyst for a better deal for all.
[i]It's not over...[/i]
It is for you! 😀
I mean lets look at the facts, 1.5m of 70 odd m people and you had your chance. They won'y be stupid enough to let such a minority cause such a hoo ha again!
You talk, all I hear is one-sided spin. As I mentioned previously, you can add embitterment and vitriol to anything but it doens't really help figure out what's actually happening - in fact it makes it a lot harder
its because you aren't listening to anything that isn't expressed on your terms....
its because you aren't listening to anything that isn't expressed on your terms....
What's that supposed to mean?
The reason why the Westminster elite were bricking themselves was the prospect of losing Scotland's oil reserves as collateral for the UK treasury borrowing. Up until that point they were perfectly content for the Scots to rubber stamp the status quo.
binners - why do you want to stay here? You must hate every day that passes!
All 3 parties represent exclusively the interests of Corporate lobbyists
binners is quite right. I look forward to a political party that supports the free market and not a tax-funded corporate system of chronyism.
mudshark - Member
binners - why do you want to stay here? You must hate every day that passes!
I'm actually quite a happy bunny. Thinking our political system is only worthy of contempt, and generally being happy aren't incompatible really, are they? Its not like its the most important thing in life, is it? That'd be...
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😀
grum - Member
binners I think you're being very harsh on GB. He inherited a poisoned chalice and was vilified in the media.
You are kidding - they achieved budget surpluses in the early days and could have managed the economy in a sensible fashion BUT hubris and incompetent took over.
And blaming [s]him[/s] banks for the global economic meltdown is a classic piece of political spin.
Well that was pretty close. I think they could have won it with a more intelligent, articulate campaign. Giving actual answers to genuine questions and concerns rather than just saying "hope over fear" or "you sound like a unionist" or "project fear" or whatever
It reminded me a bit of Lois Griffin in this episode of family guy!
What's that supposed to mean?
jesus, really??
ok, and I'll keep it brief because I'm at work; you struggle to see past people's emotive language. You dismiss it as spin whereas its usually well thought out personal opinion that's condensed into a few words for brevity on an internet forum. You seem to need everything drenched in facts and figures before you can accept it as a valid argument. The really ironic thing Molgrips is that ANY position can be supported by numbers which makes your approach extremely naïve. That's the real spin, and you don't even see it...
I am pleased GB remains as one, but disappointed as a yes vote would have made for exiting times and would have been interesting as an observer looking from the outside in.
Now we will see if Dave can deliver on the promises he made.
Now we will see if Dave can deliver on the promises he made.
Doesn't have the best track record, does he? Mind you, we've got Nick - the Deputy PM himself. He signed the pledge for change too. I seem to recall he's signed pledges in the past though. Hmmmmmm
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And Molls wonders why I'm cynical?
On a more worrying note: me, Wopster and thm seem to be in agreement on something 😯
Well from my own point of view I see the no vote as a depressing confirmation that any form of radicalism or appetite for real change is dead. It would appear that people living in the western 'democracies' are content to sacrifice any form of influence and self-determination to the political and corporate establishment in return for a just about acceptable standard of living. I can't help but think that they will live to regret it.
just for you binners - he said sorry, so that's ok then.
I wonder if there'll be another one when Cameron doesn't deliver on these "extra powers"
On a more worrying note: me, Wopster and thm seem to be in agreement on something
Well, we agree on the nature of the problem. I doubt our solutions align even remotely.
Still, small mercies... 8)
They had some scotchman on the news this morning. Saying he was ashamed of scotch folk who didn't vote for independence. Also you were not really scottish if you didn't vote his way.
The 'Yes' campaign in a nutshell; not based on sense, but a cock-eyed hatred of being stuck to England.
How many millions did that cost, then?
I am pleased GB remains as one, but disappointed as a yes vote would have made for [b]exiting[/b] times and would have been interesting as an observer looking from the outside in.
Well yes it would and not just fo Scotland, there would have been few individuals down south who would have gone as well.
[i]I seem to recall he's signed pledges in the past though[/i]
I'm no fan of Cleggy....far from it, but his pledges were based on his party achieving power. They didn't get close, but managed a bit part where they could exert some influence.
You can hardly hold him responsible for not delivering some or any of those promises.....especially when Labour had already done a runner wiv our cash!
Does the SNP take votes away from labour? Could the Tories be ousted if more of Scotland voted Labour?
I'd like to see the SNP take one for the team now they know they're not going to get independence. Shove some votes Labour's way and try and break the Tory hegemony. Tories will lose the mindless morons to UKIP and we can have some meaningful debates.
Everyone has lost, it's just that the No voters haven't realised it yet. Soon they'll find out what a Westminster promise is really worth.
Feeling very proud of my city, not so my country this morning.
Plus I spent six hours in a BBC studio and haven't had any sleep, so very grumpy 😉
The 'Yes' campaign in a nutshell; not based on sense, but a cock-eyed hatred of being stuck to England.
I've heard that before, but always from some Englishman enough chips on his shoulder to resurface the A9. What's it about? Just not happy that a lot of us think we'd be in a better place without you?
[i]Feeling very proud of my city, not so my country this morning.[/i]
I don't know with this.
It just feels like people want to define a 'tribe' of like minded people who they define as 'us' and make everyone else 'them'. they just keep reducing the size of the tribe until it fits their world view. I'm not entirely comfortable with it.
I'm not a Scottish resident but I think I'd be proud of everyone who participated in both the process leading up to it and the actual voting.
I think it should be used a paragon of the democratic process for the world to study, regardless of the actual outcome.
Does the SNP take votes away from labour? Could the Tories be ousted if more of Scotland voted Labour?
I'd like to see the SNP take one for the team now they know they're not going to get independence. Shove some votes Labour's way and try and break the Tory hegemony
Unlikely, up here Labour are seen as NuBlu labour, just a branch of the Tories which is why of around 50 MPs, Scotland will return about 1 Tory. That's why the SNP got in in the first place. Nothing, IMO, to do with independence, which is why there was such a strong majority of No voters until a few months ago.
It just feels like people want to define a 'tribe' of like minded people who they define as 'us' and make everyone else 'them'. they just keep reducing the size of the tribe until it fits their world view. I'm not entirely comfortable with it.
I agree with this in some ways. I think we need to find out why people voted No. If it was because they really believe that the Westminster parties will keep their promises, that simply voting Labour at the next election will make it all better, then that's sweetly optimistic and they'll be bitterly disappointed.
ScottChegg - Member
They had some scotchman....
You lost any sense of reason after that point.
I'm not a Scottish resident but I think I'd be proud of everyone who participated in both the process leading up to it and the actual voting.I think it should be used a paragon of the democratic process for the world to study, regardless of the actual outcome.
+1 - 80+% of the electorate voted, more than 3.5million votes cast with around 3000 spoiled papers.
Feeling very proud of my city, not so my country this morning.
Disappointing that people have to assume that 'the others' voted for wrong reasons.
I'm minded of Neil Oliver's reasoning for supporting No.
People living in a fishing town in Cornwall have more in common with the inhabitants of a fishing town in Fife than either population has with the folk of a town in the Midlands. They have a shared experience and a common history of coping with lives shaped by the sea. The coast is another country – the fifth country – and it unites and binds us like the hem of a garment.
While I can see that rightful disillusionment with politics and the circumstance of being a separate country might make potential independence a tempting option, I just don't see it as the right way to go about it.
I'm very pleased that my Scottish family and friends continue to be part of the UK.
I've heard that before, but always from some Englishman enough chips on his shoulder to resurface the A9
FWIW, I've heard this from a couple of the Scots I know though as they'd say it's very dependent on where you are as to how likely that attitude is to be prevalent and not indicative of the way most people things - ie some people are stupid just like everywhere. who'd have thought it, eh?
[i] I think we need to find out why people voted No. If it was because they really believe that the Westminster parties will keep their promises, that simply voting Labour at the next election will make it all better, then that's sweetly optimistic and they'll be bitterly disappointed. [/i]
Anyone expecting *any* politician to keep their promises is likely to be disappointed, regardless of the body they're elected to.
I suspect a lot of people just felt that moving the seat of government to a different location would make no material difference to their lives whilst introducing more risk than they were comfortable with.
I suspect a lot of people just felt that moving the seat of government to a different location would make no material difference to their lives whilst introducing more risk than they were comfortable with.
Seems to be the general consensus of the No voting Scots I know. Politicians will be politicians and it was never clear what they would be voting for on 'Yes' - which was clearly a deliberate tactic from Westminster, along with not allowing Devo Max as an option (which clearly almost, but probably was never going to, backfire).
At a quick glance it appears that the more deprived areas of Scotland have had a stronger Yes vote. If that isn't a cry for help I don't know what is.
[i]I agree with this in some ways. I think we need to find out why people voted No[/i]
FFS Ben, its all laid out out in minute detail in 'that thread'. Quite simply, enough people weren't taken in by the hyperbole and kept their heads!
Quite simply, enough people weren't taken in by the hyperbole and kept their heads
I voted no and it was pretty much this^
At a quick glance it appears that the more deprived areas of Scotland have had a stronger Yes vote. If that isn't a cry for help I don't know what is.
or perhaps that urban centric politics isn't representative of the rest of the country? Plenty of poverty in the countryside!
Yes majority areas in blue:
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And that's now going to be the debate - the Yes camp will continue to claim that Scotland would have been Eden except for those stupid/gullible/whatever people who voted No (and it'd have been the same but the other way around if Yes had won). And I expect that'll reverberate for some time now given that another referendum is very unlikely to happen for a long time now.
I agree with this in some ways. I think we need to find out why people voted No. If it was because they really believe that the Westminster parties will keep their promises, that simply voting Labour at the next election will make it all better, then that's sweetly optimistic and they'll be bitterly disappointed.
It's because they're British. That's their identity. Simple as that.
