The fight in his head is over, gentle giant is sleeping etc etc. I cant get past the fact he was a complete scumbag.
It's difficult, isn't it. I'm inclined to agree with you, though I probably shouldn't.
In a lot of these sorts of cases, we're talking about people who are mentally ill. That "gold star" nonce article is a train of thought I've had rattling around uncomfortably in the back of my head for a while now trying to form an opinion on it; it's easy to throw around terms like "evil" but being attracted to kids is just how that person's brain happens to be wired, in the same way that some people might have a thing for blondes or same-sex partners or ankles or something. The only difference is that acting on those other things requires a willing partner rather than a victim.
So someone who's got a predilection for minors, but knows that acting on his fantasies is wrong and has vowed to ignore those urges and chose a life of celibacy, do we stick him on the register and lock him up just in case, or do we offer him support and counselling for his illness?
We're basically describing a thought crime here. Like most men my sexual preference is "women," but that doesn't mean I'm not safe to be left in the company of them in case I give in to my urges and rape one of them.
But.
Years ago, I was burgled, and it left me traumatised. It took years for me to be able to leave the house for extended periods of time without worrying what I'd come back to, and to get out of the habit of looking through the glass on the internal doors before opening them to try and see if the room looked how I'd left it. A little while after the incident, the lad who'd violated my home was found dead of a drugs overdose, and my attitude at the time was along the lines of "good, hope the cash from my stuff brought it about a bit sooner. One less junkie scumbag on the streets."
But of course, he could've been ill. Maybe he had learning difficulties. May have just fallen in with the wrong crowd, got hooked on drugs that he couldn't control, succumbed to peer pressure / desperation to start on a life of crime. Maybe with help, counselling, rehabilitation, he'd still be alive today and a model citizen.
But as a victim I couldn't get past the overriding belief that he was a junkie scumbag. 15-20 years later, I'm still not sure that I can. Logically I should maybe forgive him, feel sorry for him even; but emotionally I still think, **** him and the horse he rode in on.
Just as I can't get past "scumbag" for pour little Dougie, our current society is going to struggle to get past "nonce" when dealing with paedophiles. But I do wonder now whether treating it as an illness and allowing people to come forward for help might have the net effect of [i]reducing[/i] the number of incidents / attacks.
It's difficult, isn't it.
[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/zayden-veal-whitting-murder-harley-hicks-5150361 ]http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/zayden-veal-whitting-murder-harley-hicks-5150361[/url]
[i]
A heartbroken mum has told how a former schoolfriend she once saved from suicide went on to brutally murder her baby son.
Vile Harley Hicks is serving a life sentence after he broke into Casey Veal's home before savagely beating ten-month-old Zayden to death in his cot.
Hicks has never given any real motive for the horrific killing, and the tragedy is all the more difficult for mum Casey to accept as the 21-year-old had once been considered a friend.[/i]
There's a couple of examples (none as bad as the above) in my life where people have gone beyond the pale with no real indication as to why. It feels like such a betrayal of trust. We all know people can do these things but we trust our own judgment to ensure it won't be anyone who we believe in.
You doubt your judgement and replay every conversation and all the times you looked into their eyes and didn't see what was lurking in there.
A lad I was a few years above at school [url= http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1999/sep/23/features11.g21 ]bludgeoned his mum to death with a wine bottle[/url] because she wouldn't lend him the car, and a guy who drank in the same pub as my brother [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/feb/11/vikramdodd ]ate his girlfriend[/url]. Both were "a bit odd", but not expected to do anything like this.
[quote=Cougar ]But I do wonder now whether treating it as an illness and allowing people to come forward for help might have the net effect of reducing the number of incidents / attacks.
Logically it ought to, as explained in that article (and kind of mentioned in some of the others linked). Plenty of evidence from others on here about how counselling has helped people get over issues by changing the way they think - no reason to expect that wouldn't also be the case for people who's sexual desires are illegal. Logically this should be the case both for offenders and non-offenders, but you get into a bit of a political mine field.
Logically this should be the case both for offenders and non-offenders, but you get into a bit of a political mine field.
Yeah, and that's the crux, isn't it. There's a wide gulf between someone being sexually attracted to children but knowing that they can never act on it, and, well, the likes of Jimmy Savile. The crime requires both the predilection to minors and the moral bankruptcy to act on it, and that's what society (and the gutter press) need to learn to differentiate between.
Thinking about it, it's kind of always been this way. I remember at school, a cry of "bums against the wall lads!" might go up if someone arrived who was considered to be a bit gay this week (probably for doing something gay in impeccable schoolboy logic like kissing a girl). It's never crossed my mind since, but the unspoken implication there was that if someone was homosexual, they were also a sexual predator and unless you took steps to protect yourself then a vigorous bumming was sure to follow.
Which of course is patent nonsense. But people have genuinely thought this. Homosexuality has been viewed with suspicion and fear (and worse) and it's taken us decades to reach a point where civilised society has mostly gone, "wait, you can't catch gayness from shaking hands and I'm not going to be raped? Why did no-one tell me this before?!" and got a bit more relaxed and froody about the whole thing. I wonder how many closet paedophiles there are, those who would never harm anyone, can't help what they are and would really quite like some help without fear of someone setting fire to their house?
I'm not sure where I'm going with this or what my point is, it's more of a stream-of-consciousness post. I think what I'm trying to say is, we need to grow up as a society and deal with this problem like adults if we actually want to protect children rather than sell newspapers.
Well put Cougar 🙂
The kids of a guy I work with used to play with Fred and Rose West's kids around the time they were bumping off young women. Apparently they were lovely people and he had no idea what they were up to 😯
My dad worked for the Roman Catholic school mentioned in the article, he never suspected anything.
Yep, well said Cougar. Did anyone watch [i]The Peadophile Next Door[/i]?
It was about a celibate peadophile. Really made me think. He'd done absolutely nothing wrong in his life.
Logically it ought to, as explained in that article (and kind of mentioned in some of the others linked). Plenty of evidence from others on here about how counselling has helped people get over issues by changing the way they think - no reason to expect that wouldn't also be the case for people who's sexual desires are illegal. Logically this should be the case both for offenders and non-offenders, but you get into a bit of a political mine field.
An interesting article about just that: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31114106
Broadly I agree with cougar, but it must be said that there has NEVER been a case of a paedophile being "cured". I don't think there is any therapy in the world which would make me find curvy pretty women less attractive, and I'm not sure there is a way to do similar to paedos. I'm not saying we shouldn't try and I'm not advocating any kind of barbaric pre-punishment for them.
Apparently they were lovely people and he had no idea what they were up to
I think it was Alan Davies who did a routine about murderers always being quiet types who kept themselves to themselves. A neighbour, when interviewed, never says "what, Nutter Harries? Oh, he's mental!"
I don't think there is any therapy in the world which would make me find curvy pretty women less attractive, and I'm not sure there is a way to do similar to paedos.
All the [i]more[/i] reason to support them. If I were told tomorrow that not only could I not have a sexual relationship with a curvy, pretty woman but I couldn't seek out images of curvy, pretty women or look at curvy pretty women in a sexual way or even discuss the nature of my feelings with those close to me without running the risk of, at the least, violent condemnation - I'd find that an unimaginably hard life to live. Much as I'd like to think that I'm strong enough that I could live the virtuous life and control my impulses - in all honesty I'm not sure that I can say.
it must be said that there has NEVER been a case of a paedophile being "cured". I don't think there is any therapy in the world which would make me find curvy pretty women less attractive, and I'm not sure there is a way to do similar to paedos.
"NEVER"? That's a bold claim.
We seem to have found a fairly effective cure for dogs (and we spent years trying to cure them gayers, didn't we?)
In reply to PerthMTB (page 1).
My life has got me in a near identical situation, a daughter from a previous marriage and a son about 10 years younger from my current marriage. I broke the news to my son three years ago when he was 10 at the start of the school holidays. He took it pretty well and we said that the reason we hadn't told him before was that we didn't want him to get the idea that my relationship with his mother was anything less than permanent.
It's not all happy families as my daughter has proven qute unreliable at staying in contact but now everyone concerned knows and understands the situation.
Not sure how relevant this is without knowing actual figures but its been reported that a lot of child abusers were abused themselves, suggesting that its a learned / conditioned response rather than a genetic pre-disposition. Suggesting to me that counselling / therapy may have an effect. It's a pretty tragic cycle to be cauught in.
NEVER been a case of a paedophile being "cured"
A lot of this would depend on the meaning of the word cured tbh
Plenty of folk had one of homosexual experiences and that was their only experience and the same is true for paedophilia.
I agree with your broad point Wrecker but some have been "cured".
I think what Cougar is proposing is a sort of openess where they can openly get help to never act on their desires/feelings rather than be cured.
Having worked, briefly, with sex offenders some have a chance of being "cured" and some I would be using a spade and a shallow grave as a cure.
I'm sure most people pride themselves on being able to spot people who are deviant or evil. But I guess the truth is if we were all so good at spotting these people they'd never get away with anything. I suspect people who harbor urges like this are much better at disguising it than good people are at detecting it.
Yep, I was quite surprised when my GP turned out to be Britain's most prolific serial killer. He never mentioned or discussed it with me at all. If you're expected some sort of halo of evil to be floating above their heads, you're going to be disappointed. There was no fluffy white cat either.
Not sure how relevant this is without knowing actual figures but its been reported that a lot of child abusers were abused themselves, suggesting that its a learned / conditioned response rather than a genetic pre-disposition. Suggesting to me that counselling / therapy may have an effect. It's a pretty tragic cycle to be cauught in.
My wife deals with issues around child abuse has had to sit with a family tree of one particular family and connect (alleged/convicted) abusers and victims together with arrows just so that everyone was clear who had done what to who. IIRC, every abuser had been a victim at some point.
Tragically, sexual abuse of children is far more prevalent in our society than we'd like to think.
A lot of this would depend on the meaning of the word cured tbh
Plenty of folk had one of homosexual experiences and that was their only experience and the same is true for paedophilia.
Something ridiculous like 1/3rd of men at US colleges have admitted they would consider rape if they thought they could get away with it. Ergo the difference between rapists and potential rapists is usually impulse control, I reckon this probably applies to nonces as well - I think there are probably a lot more of them than people realize, again, difference being impulse control and also the fact that it's probably a sliding scale - some people have mild homosexual attractions etc.
The world is a scary place, we never truly know anyone - we are all at the end of the day in the deepest sense lonely as telepathy has yet to be invented. Choosing who to trust is at best an educated gamble.
it's probably a sliding scale
I can't imagine there's any doubt about that given the prevalence of young adolescent imagery in mainstream adult content.
Something ridiculous like 1/3rd of men at US colleges have admitted they would consider rape if they thought they could get away with it. Ergo the difference between rapists and potential rapists is usually impulse control,
I'd expect (and, really, hope) that a percentage of that is bluster. It'd be quite easy for me to come out with something like "yeah, I could totally commit murder if I could guarantee getting away with it," but in the cold light of day shoved in a room with a large knife and Piers Morgan I might well have sudden catastrophic cajones failure.
I think the way to mitigate the inherent scariness of the human condition is to realize that most people, outside of psychopaths cannot be considered truly evil. People with these problems are to be pitied, there's no such thing as soul, there's no such thing really as evil, like it or not we are purely products of biology and our environment - we most likely even lack true free will.
I've come to the conclusion that we live in an incredibly sad world and most peoples lives are to be pitied. People are born/raised with mental pathologies like Schizophrenia, that can lead them to kill their loved ones. Others are born/raised into OCD which can lead to all sorts of issues. Others develop depression. There's a rational and sad explanation that would describe the development of a mind like Hitlers, it's sad that someone can develop that level of malice and hatred in the first place and not feel more at peace with the world.
I think I am slowly ending up Buddhist or something in my outlook towards the world, I'm not sure.
I'd expect (and, really, hope) that a percentage of that is bluster. It'd be quite easy for me to come out with something like "yeah, I could totally commit murder if I could guarantee getting away with it," but in the cold light of day shoved in a room with a large knife and Piers Morgan I might well have sudden catastrophic cajones failure.
I'll see if I can track the study down.
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022
"73 men in college, 31.7 percent of participants said they would act on “intentions to force a woman to sexual intercourse” if they were confident they could get away with it. "
I've come to the conclusion that we live in an incredibly sad world and most peoples lives are to be pitied.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you need to develop a sense of proportion. And also improve your punctuation.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you need to develop a sense of proportion. And also improve your punctuation.
Meh, I can't be bothered on a forum, I don't really think my posts through. Anyway I'm quite happy really, happier than most people shocked and scared by the human condition.
Occasionally I blow it all off with a bit of trolling and sarcasm. 😛
[i]. Anyway I'm quite happy really, happier than most people shocked and scared by the human condition.
[/i]
You sound like me 10 years ago. Now I'm a lot more jaded.
I'm quite happy really, happier than most people shocked and scared by the human condition.
But you think, and I quote, 'most peoples lives are to be pitied'? Genuinely, my GP was Harold Shipman and the lesson I took from that - at least in part - was that he was the exception rather than the rule.
None of my subsequent GPs have turned out to be pathological murderers and while I'm now a little wary of injections, it hasn't made me suspicious of humanity in general. Sure, people are capable of all sorts of nastiness, but mostly they're pretty ordinary and sometimes extraordinary in a positive way. Even people who you least expect it from at times. It's great.
I don't really see the advantage of being scared by the human condition, it is what it is, but anyway... I have a doctor's appointment to go to. 😉
Hypermasculinity reflects an exaggeration of
traditional masculine messages, such as dictating that real
men should enjoy danger, aggressively pursue sexual opportunities,
and stand ground in a fight
Christ I am two out of three there and I am a tofu munching liberal hand wringing bed wetter.
But you think, and I quote, 'most peoples lives are to be pitied'? Genuinely, my GP was Harold Shipman and the lesson I took from that - at least in part - was that he was the exception rather than the rule.
Shipman was a psychopath, he had no sense of empathy. Lot's and lots of criminals or the mentally ill aren't actually psychopaths.
Even Shipman was a product of his own genetics though and a product of the indifferent universe we find ourselves living in. Personally I pity him and people like him for not being able to feel empathy and love for their fellow men and women.
I think Witt's character in The Thin Red Line had a massive influence on how I view people.
In my post-student, pre-job days I lived with a guy for a couple of years who turned out to be a compulsive liar and schizophrenic. Me and Mrs Daz and all of our mates had known him for a few years and we regarded him as a good mate. A bit on the mental side but he seemed pretty normal. Then one day money started going missing. We initially refused to believe it, but the evidence soon mounted up and it was obviously him so he was eventually confronted with it. He continued with the denial for some time making excuses and inventing stories, so we started digging into his history, and it quickly became apparent that everything he'd told us about himself and his past was a fabrication. Various people tried to help him as he obviously had a problem, but then he disappeared, and no one ever saw him again. We didn't even find out what his real name was. We've still got no idea to this day what became of him. Very bizarre.
I knew a lad at college that I considered to be a great bloke.. I didn't hear from him in years, but always missed his calm, quiet nature and great sense of humour..
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/24/ceri-fuller-inquest-couple-break-up ]he made the news[/url]after killing his kids and himself.. somehow, I couldn't do anything but protect the name of the bloke I knew rather than the actions of the person he became 🙁
Some interesting thoughts here.
Ken was (is!) and educated man with a long professional career and a family. I get that, in the grand scheme of things, these facts don't matter much (Harold Shipman as mentioned above for instance).
I think the reason I posted this thread up was just the sheer shock of it all.
I really liked Ken - we'd even spoken of going on a camping trip together in Vermont (and normally I'm a right miserable sod in terms of making friends at work).
I guess it has knocked my trust. If Ken could hide this secret then what is being hidden by others. I appreciate that sounds like the beginning of paranoias but it's what it feels like today. I'm sure it'll subside in coming weeks.
I've been doing my bit today by making sure everyone who worked with him knows the news.......
catastrophic cajones failure
You shit your drawers?
Well, in the interests of balance, I always found my old chemistry teacher the creepiest adult I knew; his faux-matey manner grated with me and my mates something chronic.
So I wasn't surprised at all when he popped up in the news
[url= http://www.****/news/article-2263304/Former-deputy-headmaster-Derek-Farrand-sexually-abused-12-year-old-girl-helping-recover-previous-rape.html ]Ug[/url]
I agree with your broad point Wrecker but some have been "cured".
They haven't mate. There have been loads of cases where peados haven't re offended (as you say) but they have never got rid of that urge. The most effective way is chemical castration (which is only suitable for repeat offenders really), but still there have been cases where those who have undergone this have re offended. MrsW covered it on her degree.
Seems to be a lot of these about at the moment. A friend / college just went away for child pron on his computer. While I am disgusted I am also concerned that when he comes out of prison the only people who will accept him will be other peadophiles and if his peer group becomes peadofile he may be more like to "progress" in his behavior. Especially as getting a job e.t.c. will be tough. I have not contacted him but I am torn as to. I'd like to so that I can offer support as I feel it must be easier to stay on he wagon so to speak if you are not completely left on your own.
They haven't mate. There have been loads of cases where peados haven't re offended (as you say) but they have never got rid of that urge
I think it like being an alcoholic, once you are an alcoholic you always are, it just depends on how good your coping strategies are.
Here's a chap I went to school with, he went on to do much worse but I can't find a link just now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2481435.stm
Edit, here he is!
http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/8/713/HMA-v-EWAN-MACKAY
[quote=BadlyWiredDog ]None of my subsequent GPs have turned out to be pathological murderers
Have you not been reading this thread? 😯 How do you know?
@Philby, I have a 21 y/o daughter by a previous relationship. I see her rarely as we've lived in different countries since she was three, but I call her on birthdays and Christmas, and will be going to her Uni graduation in a couple of month's time. I haven't mentioned her existence to my other daughter, now 10, although most of family & friends are well aware of it. I haven't consciously kept it secret from others, I just don't deliberately talk about it as it's a painful part of my life. People can be so judgemental, so I've only really felt comfortable sharing it with people who have been through similar, and can understand the complexities (and a bunch of perfect strangers on a bike forum!!).I don't like having secrets from my daughter, and this is probably the only one, but have told myself (rightly or wrongly) that there hasn't yet been the right time to burst that bubble that she's my one and only child, and let her in on the messiness of adult relationships. It doesn't help that she's always wanted an older sister, but my other daughter doesn't want to see her - as some kind of punishment to me for 'abandoning' her but doting on her sister. I know it'd break her heart to know she has an older sister and then be shunned by her.
So, don't be too hard on your Dad, and I'm sure you did 'know' him in all other respects, and he had his reasons for keeping this one part of his life from you, and probably struggled with it constantly like I do. I have no idea whether I'm doing the right thing 'protecting' my daughter from this, and when would be the right time to tell her, which I definitely intend to at some point.
As someone who's been on the other end of this, and if it's not too awkward for you to share it on a public forum, I'd be interested in your advice. Would you rather your Dad told you? At what age do you think you'd have been able to handle it? Have you since got in touch with your sibling and has it worked out? Thanks.
I would have preferred that he had told me probably when I was a young teenager and I would have had the opportunity to ask questions and understand the reasons why he hadn't told me. My Dad had died and I was in my early 40s when my Mum told me. She told me because she knew that most of my other relatives were aware of the situation and didn't want me to hear about it from my aunt should my Mum have died without telling me. Coincidentally a distant relative in America started doing a family tree of my Dad's family shortly after my Mum had told me, and she sent me the finished version which would have clearly shown that I had a half-sister.
It changed my perception of my Dad a bit and opened up a lot of questions which he obviously can't answer. As the other poster who faced a similar situation to you did, I would also recommend that you find the right time to tell your daughter and she will at least have the full truth and have any of her questions answered by you. I know it will be difficult but it will be better finding out from you rather than someone else if you inadvertently getting knocked down by the proverbial bus.
I haven't contacted my half sister for a number of reasons, partly because of the age difference between us and partly because I was in my 40s when I found out and I didn't want to upset her life.
Good luck!
And here is a chap from the year below me at school, a real wtf discovery when I saw his face in the paper!
There have been a lot of studies on this. Essentially most of us think we can tell when we're being lied to, but in reality none of us can consistently. We tend to believe other people, which makes it easy to trick us. Lying to people is easy, especially for those who do it enough to realise how easy it is to be believed.
Should I be worried that I've never seen anybody I know in the paper on murder, rape or kiddie porn charges? I'm now wondering if I'm the one with something to hide...
Slightly OT but Bob Hare's book on psychopathy (reckoned to be the leading authority on psychopaths) says 1:100 people have traits of a psychopath - that means most of us will know a few...
I can think of 3 people I've worked with who were deeply manipulative and lacking in empathy to a degree which was really quite shocking when you watched them carefully. Some of the lies were so blatant you wanted to laugh and they all had long histories of falling out with people . But there's plenty of people who thought these people were actually quite nice - basically they knew what to say to who to keep their image as a 'good' person.
I think a lot of people would prefer the world to be a nice place so they almost deliberately refuse to see the signs of evil - and this is exactly what the most manipulative people will prey on... paedophiles I suspect are much the same as psychopaths in that respect...
