Oh, and the child benefit, don't forget that...bloody benefit scroungers.
Just for you Binners, a George Orwell quote on class in The Road to Wigan Pier
Probably the distinguishing mark of the upper-middle class was that its traditions were not to any extent commercial, but mainly military, official, and professional.People in this class owned no land, but they felt that they were
landowners in the sight of God and kept up a semi-aristocratic outlook by
going into the professions and the fighting services rather than into
trade.
I still don't understand why people have such an issue with a couple earning good money. They are not scroungers, they did not inherit it, they work and earn. It is like they are committing a crime.
If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die?
😉
The real question - leaving aside stressing about whether their income is sufficient to pass the STW acceptability crfiteria* - is not whether they can find the school fees from their current income but is whether they can sustain it for the whole of their children's time at school.
Having watched people whose parents hit hard times have to leave the fee paying school they enjoyed and had friends in to land in the nearest state school, I'd say that should be higher up the risk chart when embarking on a private education.
*Audi, wood burner, Orange 5, work in IT earning more than average but wouldn't like to admit it publicly etc.
dragon - Member
...Annual salary is a poor indicator of total wealth IMO.
Possibly. But only, it seems, when distinguishing people who are different kinds of loaded.
What exactly are the doing to spend that kind of money each month?
Biodynamic pinot grigio isn't cheap, you know
What exactly are the doing to spend that kind of money each month?
He'll be boffing the Au-pair and she'll be boffing her Personal Trainer.....
[i]He'll be boffing the Au-pair and she'll be boffing her Personal Trainer..... [/i]
🙂
The only way that sentence could be better was if the second boffing was, perhaps, a biffing.
Upper class is nothing to do with wealth - it is birth, breeding and marriage.
[b]nickC[/b] And they won't get child benefit - that went for over £50k years ago.
And they [i]aren't[/i] complaining - they are asking advice.
Seems an odd thing for happy STWrs to get upset about.
And they aren't complaining - they are asking advice.
"Financially broken" wasn't emotive at all, I'm sure. And the advice is so exceptionally simple, that anyone with a brain cell could work it out for themselves.
Stoatsbrother - MemberSeems an odd thing for happy STWrs to get upset about.
i'm not upset, i think it's hilarious. and baffling.
and i'm here for the biscuits.
any garibaldis?
And they aren't complaining - they are asking advice.
I think they're actually gloating, it's all a subterfuge to show off a bit...
"But the pair are worried about becoming “financially broken” as the sheer cost of middle-class life in London means they are stretched to the brink."
They've sought advice, they are worried, they are not saying they earn too little. The BTL tax changes and kids getting older will impact on them. I don't see them blaming any one or asking for money.
Do I feel sorry for them? No - the answers are pretty simple.
Probably they have a friend who is a hack journalist who needed a victim for his column. Anyone her trust a journalist to accurately report what you say?
nickC And they won't get child benefit - that went for over £50k years ago.
Over £60K (you can claim, but it's recovered at a rate of 1% per £100 over £50K gross, so once you pass 60K it's just admin for no benefit) but your point stands.
Ask me and HMRC how I know this very well now 👿 hopefully it'll save some other poor sod some bother. Tax liability appears to be something you really do need to teach yourself even if you are PAYE.
I'm glad I earn a fraction of what they do, so I've never been in a position to balls up my personal finances.
Odd thing to say. As I'm sure you're perfectly aware, many people earning the same, and less, than you have ballsed up their personal finances.
Sarcasm doesn't come across well online.
We've never earned enough to consider getting a £2.5k mortgage, sending my kids to private school, getting a BTL flat, spending £5k on a holiday, shopping exclusively at Waitrose, running two massive cars, etc.
So, we're stuck "getting by" on a combined £3k per month take home and, because my wife helps run the local food bank and we're friends with a varied mix of people, realising that we're very well off indeed.
Seems an odd thing for happy STWrs to get upset about.
seriously! it presses all the STW hand wringing buttons:
people earning more them them and being perceived to not work as hard.
privileged
London
Legal
middle class but somehow reminding them of their own aspirations and failings
buy to let.
750k property.
the orgiastic ego pandering of shamelessly airing ones laundry in the media
5k holidays.
affording 5k holidays taken in term time.
offspring with posh names, their cosseted lives and the odious people they will become.
big kitchen with shiny coffee machine
Audi
London
Ocado
Boden catalogue on favourites tab
5k full suss ridden once a year at trail centre, cant ride for toffee.
Is it not still valid to ask for opinion and views on how to manage your finances when the numbers become larger?
Yes they have lots of options, but they still need to choose.
I worked for a bloke who lived in a castle once. He used to make financial decisions too.
Don't see the issue really, they are making good money, good luck to them.
seriously! it presses all the STW hand wringing buttons:
Yep! All the usual logical gymnastics to redefine "wealthy" cos people don't want to admit that they are.
Boden catalogue on favourites tab
You know, until just then I thought Boden and Bodum were the same thing. I'd never really worked out why they were held up as a marker of middleclass-ness
They are asking how they can afford something incredibly expensive 'without sacrificing their current lifestyle'. If this was someone poor asking how they can afford to get a new giant flatscreen when they only work part time and don't want to work full time the paper and all the people defending these two would be lining up to slate them.
It's nothing to do with jealousy, at all. I have no smidgeon of jealousy for these people whatsoever. It's about them asking 'how can we have our cake and eat it'. Though I would agree it's probably more journalistic trolling than the fault of the couple themselves as to how it comes across. As above I really can't imagine why they agreed to be in it. Maybe they're all actors.
As above I really can't imagine why they agreed to be in it.Because they got free financial advice (given that they do not have any spare money to pay for it)
10 minutes googling would have thrown up as much info as is in that article though wouldn't it?
Perhaps they should do some voluntary work to get some perspective on both their finances and life.
When my mate starting working at the bottom rung on a paper one of his jobs was dreaming up some of the letters to the paper...
What is the point of having cake if you cannot eat it?
What exactly are the doing to spend that kind of money each month?
Good question.
Perhaps they should do some voluntary work to get some perspective on both their finances and life.
How do you know they don't?
That's it though, nobody knows ANYTHING about these people yet the trial has already concluded. If they float...
I was wondering that. They must be taking home around £10k a month even with £2500 going on the mortgage there's quite a bit left. I suppose it shows that you adapt your lifestyle to the money available.What exactly are the doing to spend that kind of money each month?
What exactly are the doing to spend that kind of money each month?
Living in London commuter belt, I suspect a massive chunks is going on rail season ticket, say £7-8k pa for the two of them, from say, Sevenoaks. Then there's childcare at c£30k for 4 days a week at £80 per day per child. There might be an au pair at say £100 pw, total of £5,200. That's 43,200 net cash going on funding just getting to work and childcare, conscious that if they're working in London they will need someone to pick the kids up before nursery closes.
That's the equivalent of £60k+ gross salary. Add in Starbucks every day etc... and you can see where it goes.
EDIT - my mistake - she is on maternity leave, so a lot of those costs won't be there at the moment....but they will be when she does go back to work.
I wish I lived in London. It sounds great! 😆
I wish I lived in London. It sounds great!
Gutted I moved away for a £3k paycut 😀
just read some of this thread and for a change I found myself pleased that most of you aren't really having a go at them, the lack of armchair criticism is good to see. If you think that should you earn that much you wont potentially end up in the same position then well done, you're a rare person in this day and age.
Jealousy
I really don't think most people actually are. I think most people are simply critical of people who have way more than enough to live on, more than the vast majority of people in this country, yet appear to be moaning about struggling to make ends meet. The truth is, their 'difficulties' stem from their sense of entitlement to a particular 'lifestyle', as has been pointed out. An affliction many people suffer with, regardless of 'wealth'. As others have pointed out, this couple could make quite a few choices and be able to afford that private education for their kids. They don't 'need' to own a second home, they don't 'need' expensive shit and holidays, etc. Most of us seem to do ok without all that.
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not remotely jealous of people who probably have to spend the vast majority of their waking hours working for that nice salary, get to spend limited quality time with their families, are beholden to their employers, have to commute for hours a day, and probably don't have much of a social life. All so they can brag about how 'wealthy' they are.
Wealthy for me is not having to work whilst living in a nice house/area.
That'll be us then. Mortgage and child-free, and able to live quite comfortably from savings/investments. My wife does work 'part-time' for a charity she loves, but I'm currently 'between jobs'. We were wondering just ho much we do actually 'need', so we've decided to 'allow' ourselves a set amount each month, to see how much we can actually save. Because the truth is, we really don't 'need' much more than food and some basic essentials.
So, we're stuck "getting by" on a combined £3k per month take home and, because my wife helps run the local food bank and we're friends with a varied mix of people, realising that we're very well off indeed.
+1. 'Wealth' isn't just about having things.
I wish I lived in London. It sounds great!
It can be. You just have to know how to manage your finances. 😉
How do you know they don't?
I would wager a large sum of money they don't! Too busy keeping up with the Jones to give a shit about anyone else.
They are asking how they can afford something incredibly expensive 'without sacrificing their current lifestyle'. If this was someone poor asking how they can afford to get a new giant flatscreen when they only work part time and don't want to work full time the paper and all the people defending these two would be lining up to slate them.
Agree. Seems the same as the "it's not fair I can't afford a house" stuff. If you can't afford it, then you can't afford it. Nobody elses fault.
It's a first world problem taken to an extreme - how can I keep my BTL and privately educate the kids?
I'm wealthier than them with a lot lower income - I'm a bit older I suppose.
Martin Bishop, financial adviser at Donnelly-McPartlin
😆
That is just superb!
*awaits the usual suspects arrival saying that that isn't funny at all, and its totally wrong, and just the product of envy, to mock decent people for simply working hard, earning a reasonable living, and simply wanting whats best for their kids*
I don't have a problem with them making money, I have a problem with their expectation/naivety that they're entitled to send their kids to an expensive school without making any sacrifices to their lifestyle. The fact that they have choice available to them, but don't seem to be willing to make any changes is a damning consequence of the current social expectation that one can have their cake and eat it. This isn't limited to people like this family, but also a lot of people who stretch themselves considerably beyond their means in order to meet some social expectation of how they should live. Just take a look at the cars parked down your street - how many are on PCP etc just because their mates expect them to have a BMW 335d. how many people will be feeling forced to run up huge credit card debt this Christmas so their kids can have the latest and greatest games console because that's what all their classmates are getting?
To me it's an attitude that was born in the 80s and is a direct result of the right to buy and other initiatives that developed such a materialistic society. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of it either - I recently spent nearly £600 on a steel hardtail frame built in Taiwan on the basis that it was designed by some rad Canadians, entirely materialistic. The only thing is I could afford to do this without detriment to the other things I consider necessities in life or putting myself in debt (other than emotional debt to my wife, but that's a whole different kettle of fish).
To me it's an attitude that was born in the 80s
You could just blame Thatcher, it would take a lot less words.
[i]You could just blame Thatcher, it would take a lot less words.[/i]
😀
So is the summary of the last 6 pages that stw concludes 190k isn't much and they are right to be concerned?
Or possibly that when it comes to self-awareness, this is right up there with that letter from Dave last week, to the head of Oxford council, asking why he was cutting library services
footflaps - Member
You could just blame Thatcher, it would take a lot less words.
I could, but it's not as clear as that so I didn't. Sorry you have a problem with that. The development of our current society's acceptance of personal debt is a lot more nuanced than even I care to understand.
So is the summary of the last 6 pages that stw concludes 190k isn't much and they are right to be concerned?
No, I think the summary is that if you make no financial plans, apart from those that mirror your much richer friends Jontie and Buntie who were at the same minor prep or public schools (and who's parents are "independently wealthy"), then your massive sense of entitlement isn't able to be satisfied by what is a substantial income, except in one of the world's most expensive cities to live in.
So is the summary of the last 6 pages that stw concludes 190k isn't much and they are right to be concerned?
In their world, the "problem" is it isn't much money when you factor in the insane living costs for the job/life style they and their peers want to maintain.
I think if you want to send kids to expensive private schools, realistically, they need to be partners at their firms, rather than the levels they're at now - that would be my advice to them in terms of how to afford it - get to partner in a few years and pay it out of higher earnings - but question how little they will see of their kids....
then your massive sense of entitlement isn't able to be satisfied by what is a substantial income, except in one of the world's most expensive cities to live in.
£190k is a substantial income in London, by any objective measure.
Its folk like this is whats wrong with the country......a sense of entitlement.
I was ALWAYS brought up not to be in debt, if i cant afford it then save up for it, by the time you'll have decided whether you actually do really need it or not. If you cant afford it, forget about it until you can.
If you cant afford private school, then you can't. If you can work out a way then fine.
I can't stand people like this, i bet they have a circle of 'friends' that they deep down despise and are in silent competition with. Probably drive a Discovery to do the school run in - it's never seen mud. Eff off with your pretentious kids names it makes everyone cringe when you shout it across the park when they run off in their Ralph Lauren wellies!
Or......just move out of London, work normal hours, live in a normal house and enjoy playing with your kids in the summer evenings. Relax and get in to a bit of yoga.
I had to look at this thread as I thought Daily Mash was getting its ideas from STW! 😯
Would be handy I guess, saves me visiting both sites, sure they'd have some interesting opinions on sportive vs. Audax and the various wheel size debates 😀
So is the summary of the last 6 pages that stw concludes that they'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes
FIFY.
No the summary is closer to "forget the context, lets get frothy"
FFS - look what section its in. Then think hmmm, is this an actual story or an embellished one that enables us to write an article. Then, perhaps, appreciate that this whole story is actually about creating a scenario in which to discuss different personal finance issues in an apparent "human/real context".
simple issues like WTF are you max-ing out on credit cards?
how do you start thinking about financing different things?
look what happens if you don't think about it?
Why get frothy about that and attack the couple or what they are perceived to represent. That section of the Torygraph has a specific target market segment - its not a universal one!
Whats the context? Couple of financial imbeciles cannot budget?
Or......just move out of London, work normal hours, live in a normal house and enjoy playing with your kids in the summer evenings. Relax and get in to a bit of yoga.
How many zones out would be STW Approved? Six, eight or is that the minimum travel time in hours that they should be doing? Do you think all that travel time will make them and their kids appreciate the short time they do get to spend with each other?
Funny how keeping up with the joneses is such a terrible thing amongst the fat bike riding, Passat driving, shed building, vice owning, log burning STW Elite.
Whats the context? Couple of financial imbeciles cannot budget?
Actually, yes. But from the rest of the speculation and hyperbole being thrown about you would think they were using small children to light the tenners that light their 100% slave labour produced cigars.
yet appear to be moaning about struggling to make ends meet.
But they aren't moaning. They are just asking for advice on how best to meet their goals.
Funny how keeping up with the joneses is such a terrible thing amongst the fat bike riding, Passat driving, shed building, vice owning, log burning STW Elite.
The main bone of contention seems to be keeping up with the Joneses using money they don't have.
They are just asking for advice on how best to meet their goals.
Mr Micawber answered that one, some time ago.
I love the stock stw answer for anyone who has a problem and lives in London. Move out of London.... because that will solve everything....
Mr Micawber answered that one, some time ago.
The Tories may be trying to put back the clock to Dickensian times, but the personal finance landscape retains some differences from Mr M's era.
The main bone of contention seems to be keeping up with the Joneses using money they don't have.
I didn't realise having less than 5% of your income tied up in credit cards was such a bad thing, my god...
Unless you mean the school fees. Which they do have the money for, they just need to budget which they're obviously not good at.
squirrelking - Member
How many zones out would be STW Approved? Six, eight or is that the minimum travel time in hours that they should be doing? Do you think all that travel time will make them and their kids appreciate the short time they do get to spend with each other?
there are jobs* outside London, some of them even pay in actual money, not just beef dripping and pigeons.
(*and museums, theatres, hospitals, airports, schools, etc. Amazing isn't it)
So to summarise: people with limited common sense can earn vast sums of cash* by living in London doing jobs of little value to society courtesy of the private school education mummy and daddy bestowed upon them. Now they are worried because they have to sacrifice their lifestyle to give the kiddos the same paid for leg up over the proles.
The crazy vacuous bubble surrounding our capital never ceases to amaze me.
*apparently not vast enough
The way I read it, they're basically benefit scroungers complaining that the state isn't giving them enough cash. I say public flogging for the parents, and send the children to the work house.
The Tories may be trying to put back the clock to Dickensian times, but the personal finance landscape retains some differences from Mr M's era.
I'll stick with Mr Micawber advice to spend a little less than I earn. So far, it seems to have saved me from moaning to the Telegraph.